how do you organize the fretboard

[Goofsus4]

Could you elaborate a bit? On the example you gave, could you specify:
if I were playing over Am7 at the fifth fret, I might think "E shape, first position minor pentatonic"
with a scale map maybe?
Thanks

Joao

I don't know how to set up scale maps in these posts, but here's a link to a page that has a map of the minor pentatonic. If you envisioned this starting on the fifth fret, it would be exactly what I was talking about.

Lesson 5: The Pentatonic Scale

This minor pentatonic frame overlaid on this "E shape" (it's not in it's usual E shape, because the third is flatted, of course, but it's where the E shape is located when thinking CAGED) chord grip for an Am7 outlines the intervals of 1,b3,4,5,b7. Okay, so I can play just notes from this minor pentatonic frame if I want and it will work over the Am7. Or, if I want to play a lick with a Latiny flavor, I might visualize Aeolian and I'd just add the b6 to this frame. Or, if I wanted to play a bluesy lick, I might add the b5 this frame. Or, I might just want to add a hipper line and add the major 7th to it. You could then say I was playing selected notes from the "jazz melodic minor" scale or something, but I don't think of it that way. I just think of it as playing a minor pent scale, and adding the major 7th to create a bit of an outside sound. Or, I might just want to have a pretty melodic flavor to my lick, so I might add in the 9th to the frame.

The point is that I don't think about scales and their names when I am playing, I am thinking about the sounds or style of sound I want to make. I visualize these tones as residing inside or, or surrounding this minor pentatonic frame.

This goes back to previous posts I've made. I just visualize scales and arps and modes as intervallic formulas that yield a palette of notes I can choose from to create a particular sound to a lick or phrase. For me, the pentatonic frames and CAGED system just provide a structure from which I can quickly identify where all the intervals lie related to a particular chord type anywhere along the fretboard.

[jonasfixe]

Thanks, now I see what you meant.

So you start from that shape to buid all other scales. But to use a major sound, how would you do?
For instance, if you wanted to play over a C maj 6/9 or 7 chord, what shape would you use (based on pentatonic)?

Thanks

Joao

PS It's pretty easy to draw scales and chords on this forum: just use the button on the toolbar (don't use quick-reply, because it doesn't have it)

[jonasfixe]

Attached is a picto of the chord shapes I borrowed from Bucky and adapted to mapping out chord melodies.

The shapes produce a melody note on the upper voice. The trick is to move between shapes to link chords in a progression. Notice how there is no 5th in the chord shapes. There is a reason for this.

I travel alot..so I will add another piece when I'm home and show how I apply them to a musical example.

In the mean time the shapes shoud be learned on the two remaining string sets. (bass note on the 6th and 5th string)

This is great stuff. It is look on chord inversions but using other chord shapes. For instance instead of saying
I, I/III (3rd on bass= first inversion) , I /V (fifth on bass = 2nd inversion )
it says:
I , IIIm7 , V 6

same for dominant and minor 7 chords

For me it's easier to think Em7 than "1st inversion of C MAJ 7 !

Looking forward for more stuff, keep it coming...

PS: How did Pizzarelli use this?

Thanks
Joao

[Goofsus4]

Thanks, now I see what you meant.

So you start from that shape to buid all other scales. But to use a major sound, how would you do?
For instance, if you wanted to play over a C maj 6/9 or 7 chord, what shape would you use (based on pentatonic)?

Thanks

Joao

PS It's pretty easy to draw scales and chords on this forum: just use the button on the toolbar (don't use quick-reply, because it doesn't have it)

For major tonality, I use the same system. Sometimes I think in terms of the major pentatonic, sometimes the minor. It just depends on the style I'm playing in.

But, often I will just continue to think in terms of the minor pentatonic. For an A Major 7th at the fifth fret, I'd just now picture that as the second position of the minor pentatonic, with the first position now above that (toward the nut) and overlaying the "A shape" position for the A major 7th chord grip. Again, it's going to have the major 7th so it won't really be the "A shape" but it is in the position associated with the A shape using the CAGED system.

As I said, I'm strictly using the CAGED/Pent connection as reference to navigation and knowing where I am so I can link arps, scales, and modes. But the notes I'm playing could be from any scale. I just depends on what I want it to sound like. For my purposes, the minor pentatonic patterns will work just fine. When I'm playing over a major chord, and I want to play a lick using the b5 and the major 7th, for instance, I just do it. I know where those intervals are and I play them. If I go back and analyze it, I could say I was playing in Lydian mode, but I never think of it that way. I'm just "thinking" of tones I want to hear that are represented by intervals that lie in a frame I visualize and I just hit them in a certain sequence that is pleasing to my ear.

But obviously, this way of thinking is for creating my own melodies and lines when improvising. If I am following the actual melody of a standard or something, then I generally have to take the time to learn the melody in different places. But once I have it down, I can then use this system to embellish the melody.

[Jazzaluk]

This is great stuff. It is look on chord inversions but using other chord shapes. For instance instead of saying
I, I/III (3rd on bass= first inversion) , I /V (fifth on bass = 2nd inversion )
it says:
I , IIIm7 , V 6

same for dominant and minor 7 chords

For me it's easier to think Em7 than "1st inversion of C MAJ 7 !

Looking forward for more stuff, keep it coming...

PS: How did Pizzarelli use this?

Thanks
Joao

I'm glad there is some interest because It is a very useful way to map out chord melodies and remember them.

I have worked with this for a long time and I've learned some of Bucky's chord melodies to gain insight but

Basically, each chord type has three options. He calls the chords "cadence chords" which implies that they must be used in a progression. The names of the form do not imply function but rather serve as a way of renaming basic chords so that you know where on the neck you want to progress.

Because there are basically three forms for each chord, you can find several different routes around the neck, each producing different options.

Lets take a bit of Autumn Leaves as an example (Em)...

Am7 / / / |D7 / / / |G / / / |C / / / |

F#m7b5 / / / |B7 / / / |Em / / / | / / / /|

Here are some possible options using the chord map forms.
I don't have a guitar with me so I'm trying to simply convey the concept.
Sometimes the melody is on the top of the chord and sometimes not, but you can add the melody or a bass to the form as you see fit. Play this example along the fingerboard and you can see how it helps map out possible positions. String transfers accommodate large leaps or when the melody needs to be addressed or added.

1. Start Am on 12th fret (also note that C6 functions as F#m7b5)

Am7 / Em7 / | D7 / F#m7 / |GM7 / D6 / |
Em7 / G6 / |F#m7 / C6 / |B7 / D#m7 / |Em7 / D#m7|Em7 / / /|

Another option ... first 4 bars only (because I'm late for a meeting)

Em7 / CM7 / | D7 / D7\C / |Bm7 / D6 / | G6 / Em7 / | F#m7...etc

Play around with it and when I return from my road trip I will post a bit of a chord melody using the forms. P.S its best to play the form with the pinky on the upper voice

[jonasfixe]

Jazzaluk,

Yes it opens a lot of possibilities...
When I get to my guitar I will try your suggestions to Autumn Leaves, and see how they sound, but this seems already a prolific idea for developing chord melodies and comping.

Thanks a lot

Joao

I'm now looking forward to hear some Bucky Pizzarelli, because I only know one album from John Pizarelli (son). Does anyone has a suggestion?

[jonasfixe]

Ok, I see.
You use the pentatonic shape plus the chord shape. Although it may miss some notes, that's smart, because it gives you an "anchor" to improvise.

Thanks

Joao

PS: I was going to ask about the second position of the pentatonic, but I already got it from Pentatonic Scale Position Two
excelent reference!

[jonasfixe]

Hi again Jazzaluk and all,

Am7 / Em7 / | D7 / F#m7 / |GM7 / D6 / |
Em7 / G6 / |F#m7 / C6 / |B7 / D#m7 / |Em7 / D#m7|Em7 / / /|

I just built a chord melody based on those chords you wrote.
It's amazing how it fits perfectly (probably not a coincidence ). I just added a couple of notes, because those shapes already contain the melody notes.

Basically, each chord type has three options.

Do you have those "Bucky's inversions" for the half dim chord? (m7 b5)? I saw you used a C6 chord in a F# m7b5...

Thanks a lot

PS: If anyone knows a free and easy notation software, I'd be glad to add that chord melody and other stuff that comes around... This can't be only about learning, I got to give smething as well...

[Jazzaluk]

The C6 sub for f#min7b5 was just something I noticed. There are other interesting things to notice as well, like E7 can function as Caug.

Again, these forms are a way of mapping out a chord melody on the neck to generate different possibilities. Once it brings you to an area of the neck, then it is possible to use any device or visualization that is available to you that fits over that position. Then just use the forms to navigate to another area. Great fun. Also greast for creating intros.

I'm on the road (on a hotel computer), when I'm back home I will try to explain how to generate moving inner lines and how to "distort" the forms to create more motion.