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  1. #1

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    octatonic blues

    one of the misconceptions being made aware to me recently, is how as a subset of the dorian blues mode of the major bebop scale:

    1 2 b3 4 #4/b5 5 6 b7 1

    or in D:

    D E F G G#/Ab A B C D

    the harmonic minor scale (as well as harmonic major) may be generated:

    A B C D E F G# A

    and

    C D E F G Ab B C

    and some are taking this as that i am implying some kind of parallel between the development of the harmonic minor and octatonic bebop scales. let me answer this simply: nope. the use of harmonic minor as i understand it, arose from the desire to have the leading tone present in minor cadences during the common practice period (but probably much earlier) but you know what? i am not an historian. i am a guitarist who came of age in the twentieth century. so what exactly am i saying?

    i am saying that the (yes, symmetrical) octatonic blues mode of the bebop major scale:

    D E F G G#/Ab A B C D

    is a superset of both A harmonic minor and C harmonic major. so what of it?

    check this out:


    -------------------------------------------------------10-12-13-
    -----------------------------------------(9)-10-12-13-----------
    -----------------------------9-10-12-13-------------------------
    --------------------9-10-12-------------------------------------
    ----------10-11-12----------------------------------------------
    10-12-13--------------------------------------------------------


    and tell me if 1) this isn't one of the easiest fingerings in the world for a guitarist to get to know and 2) how damned useful this fingering is for the (yes, typical ii V7 i) Bm7b5 E7b9 resolution to Am as found in so many many tunes. from this simple fingering, you can derive C harmonic major (LCC: F lydian diminished for the E7b9 as the VII chordmode) as well as A harmonic minor (one of the most straightforward approaches to the minor II V I) and has anyone tried the D minor blues scale for the E7 right before the A minor? yum!

    and the C major bebop scale

    you see, i make no assertions whatsoever that there is any causal relationships between scales such as C major bebop, D blues and A harmonic minor, other than that they are factual subsets and/or supersets of each other which share a common fingering template. i truly hope this clears up some of the confusion regarding the broken symmetry found in the harmonic minor/major inversions (they are set theory inversions of each other) and octatonic modes associated with this scale.

    and also to clear up the record, i don't normally teach this stuff to my students with the exception of a very small handful over the years who have seemed receptive to "thinking" (or playing, as it were) "outside the box."

    it's nice to talk about music, isn't it

    ps - i don't actually use bebop scales other than in the manner described above. next up: unconventional use of the dominant bebop scale. stay tuned...
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-05-2012 at 02:41 AM. Reason: ps

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  3. #2

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    Hell yeah! Now there's some good old Dogbite theory!

    Welcome on board, my friend.

  4. #3

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    Yeah, welcome aboard dogbite.

    Great stuff, thanks for sharing and keep them coming.

  5. #4

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  6. #5

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    Hey Dogbite
    Yea, welcome... Would be interesting to see where mixing position fingerings ends up. That fingering feels more like a lick than a repeating fingering used in other situations. But I like the phrasing it creates. Reg

  7. #6

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    I'm still considering what I think about deriving 7-note scales from common 8-note ones. In the interim, here are the CAGED diagrams for those who prefer them (black note = triad tone, circled black note = root):


  8. #7

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    thanks for the welcomes, and thanks rich cochrane for the visual on the fingerings. note also that the scale comprises two diminished fragments:

    D-E-F-G-Ab
    -1-½-1-½

    and

    G#-A-B-C-D
    --½-1-½-1


    so that if you have diminished scales under your fingers (or are otherwise good at them) you can use what i call "frags and combos" or fragments and combinations to piece together "interesting" or unusual fingerings. my standard "CAGED" presentation of this scale is slightly different than rich's so i thought i would provide them here. use whatever feels right. i'm not really a "tab" guy so i'll be checking these periodically for typos. the parentheses are used when "one or the other" blues note may be played on different strings:



    A dorian blues
    --------------------------------------5-7-8-
    ----------------------------(4)-5-7-8-------
    ------------------4-5-7-(8)-----------------
    ------------4-5-7---------------------------
    ------5-6-7---------------------------------
    5-7-8---------------------------------------

    G dorian blues
    --------------------------------------5-6-8-9-
    --------------------------------5-6-8---------
    --------------------------5-6-7---------------
    --------------------5-7-8---------------------
    ----------(4)-5-7-8---------------------------
    5-6-8-(9)-------------------------------------

    E dorian blues
    --------------------------------------5-6-7-
    --------------------------------5-7-8-------
    ----------------------(3)-4-6-7-------------
    ------------4-5-7-(8)-----------------------
    ------4-5-7---------------------------------
    5-6-7---------------------------------------

    D dorian blues
    ------------------------------------(4)-5-7-8-
    --------------------------5-6-8-(9)-----------
    --------------------4-5-7---------------------
    --------------5-6-7---------------------------
    --------5-7-8---------------------------------
    4-5-7-8---------------------------------------

    C dorian blues
    --------------------------------------5-6-8-
    --------------------------------6-7-8-------
    --------------------------5-7-8-------------
    ----------------(4)-5-7-8-------------------
    ------5-6-8-(9)-----------------------------
    5-6-8---------------------------------------


    i normally use these for ii V7s or their constituent chords. what could be more natural for a jazzer with a rock background than a dorian scale with a blues note

    also: minor pentatonic blues with an added 2 and 6...
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-05-2012 at 03:30 PM.

  9. #8

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    Prompted by this post I've been looking at the Harmonic Major. Sorry if this is a bit of a sidebar to Dogbite's main points.

    One way to see Harmonic Major is as, e.g., Bdim over CM7. Pretty interesting sound.

    One of the modes is Lydian Minor (1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7), which you could think of as, e.g., Bm7 over Cm. I've just been trying F#m7 on the Gm7s in Baltimore Oriole, which happens to be on my music stand this morning, and I think it sounds great.

    Another mode is Mixolydian b9 (1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7), which looks to me like the mM7 built on the b7 over a dominant chord (BbmM7 over C7). We also have Dorian b5 (1, 2, b3, 4, b5, 6, b7), which can be played as BbM7 over Cm7b5. This is quite an inside sound: maybe it's commonly-used? It sounds familiar to my ears.

    Just some random thoughts but I think these four sounds, one for each of the common seventh types, are pretty hip. I'm sure they've all been used before but thinking of them as a family of related sounds might have value, at least for me.

  10. #9

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    lydian minor (1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7) is referred to as "lydian diminished" in george russell's latest (4th edition) LCC. you can think of harmonic minor similarly as your "Cmaj7 with Ddim" or G#dim with Am...

    i don't know how "common" modes of harmonic major actually are, as i don't here players bring it up often but some for sure...

    it's one reason i really like the octatonic approach. the five box fingerings (based on CAGED) that we both posted give you both scales, but in any event, arpeggio approaches are nice

  11. #10

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    maj7(b3)
    1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7

    7(b9)
    1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7

    m7(b5)
    1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7

    dim7
    1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7

    are just some of the modes; another reason i like the octatonic (and the rest of the chromatic cube) is that 7 modes from major + 7 modes from melodic minor + 7 from harmonic minor + 7 from harmonic major is just plain out of hand. now i can do seven greek modes (and five chromatic modes if i want to) with variations to get all this. 12 diatonic scales, eight variations of each, no muss, no fuss. well, other than appearing like a lunatic on jazz forums - hey did i just say that?

    just trying to lighten it up a little. let me use that to segue into my next post. stay tuned...

  12. #11

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    okay, i'd like to start a big series of posts so bear with me. it's about the circle. the circle of doom. the circle of fifths, brought to you by 12TET or twelve-tone equal temperament:

    C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C

    here's a little help with the memorization:

    Five Cats Got Drunk At Eddies Bar

    what did they do? they Got(b) Drunk(b) At(b) Eddie's(b) Bar(b)

    note the inserted flats after the cats fell flat on their asses drunk.

    age appropriate version might be "five cats going down alleys eating baloney"...

    don't let enharmonics mess you up. F# = Gb for my purposes cuz i won't know if you're in G or Db until it's too late anyway.

    i love pentatonic scales. used along the circle, they may overlap to do all kinds of neat things:

    A minor pentatonic (A C D E G) overlapping with E minor pentatonic (E G A B D) makes for a real neat Am9 sound with that B on top by generating a de facto hexatonic (A B C D E G) but remember to isolate the groups in your lines (don't play linear or stepwise) so that it doesn't sound like some kind of scale (geesh)

    just cuz the set of notes in front of you looks like a scale doesn't mean that you have to play it like a scale (mentioned to deflect anti CST comments) so play in not only seconds but thirds, fourths, etc...

    so i propose that students at all levels (that's us teachers too ya know) learn and practice this: to navigate the circle with skill and grace with melodic (and harmonic) structures, including but not limited to:

    1) major scales
    2) pentatonic scales
    3) commonly used arpeggios, triads as well as sevenths, etc...

    i know i may seem a wee bit enigmatic here but one of the things i encounter is students asking about altered dominant harmony or non functional quartals who haven't yet become comfortable with moderate key changes and well just may not be ready for it.

    but that's not the only reason. start with the major scale: 1 2 3, do re mi, A B C (sharp) and transpose your chord, your lick, your frag, your melodic snippet to all twelve keys in order of that circle.

    why? trust me* it's good for you.

    next up: melodic minor along that damn circle

    *never trust anyone who says "trust me"
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-06-2012 at 06:28 AM. Reason: trust me

  13. #12

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    there are a lot of ways to open up a dialog on melodic minor, so i'm just gonna run with it, as if bigdaddylovehandles had left it to me from that altered dominant thread

    the historical development of the classical melodic minor, ascending 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8 and descending 8 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1 is a result of part writing melody practices of a certain time period. sure i know how it works, as i use it a lot. however, in modal improvisation (the way i'm using it from this point forward), i'm talking about modes of the ascending form; the way most of us have been referring to it such as in lydian dominant and altered dominant, also known as diminished wholetone and superlocrian.

    so, along the circle of fifths the major scales produce closely related scales that differ by a mere one note:

    C major
    C D E F G A B

    G major
    G A B C D E F#

    but melodic minors do not:

    C melodic minor
    C D Eb F G A B

    G melodic minor
    G A Bb C D E F#

    rather, there are three different notes (Eb-E, B-Bb, F-F#) not closely related at all...

    i know a jazz guitarist who practices altered dominants along the circle (at least he told me so, and i believe him) E7(alt) A7(alt) D7(alt) etc...

    i am humbled because, that's hard!

    Q: so in the nice and neat, complete circle of major scales, how should you relate them, these pesky, yet wonderfully dark sounding and compelling melodic minor scales and modes? A: any way you want to, but i'd like to show you how i do it.

    here are two situations:

    1) Bm7b5 E7(alt) Am, and down a minor third

    2) G#m7b5 C#7(alt) F#m

    for situation 1) i'm pokin' along with a C major/A aeolian [B locrian for Bm7b5 / E phrygian for E7(alt)] like i often do and it sounds great; however, i get this crazy idea to flat the E for the Bm7b5, thus providing the familiar altered dominant scale (B C D Eb F G A B) for the Bm7b5...

    so what am i to conclude from situation 1)???

    that flatting the third of the major scale is sometimes useful in dealing with jazz harmony!!! is this hard? not terribly. simply play melodic minor instead of major.

    for situation 2) i'm going to use the tritone sub of C#7 (G7) and play a C major scale to scoot across the imaginary G7 subbing for its tritone brother, C#, but then sharp the 4 (#4 = #11) to get my original C# root back (G A B C# D E F G) for the original C#7...

    yeah yeah i could have just used the damn C#7(alt) scale anyway but what am i to conclude from situation 2)???

    that raising the root of the major scale is sometimes useful in dealing with jazz harmony!!! is this hard? not really. simply find the root and raise it by a semitone.

    hey wait a minute. i like this shit a whole lot better than that three note difference between melodic minors along the circle!

    so i propose that:

    players get used to two relatively simple alterations to those major scales along the circle of fifths. why? it's good for you. trust me (okay i tried that before and look where it got me)

    lookie:

    C D E F G A B
    C D Eb F G A B
    C# D E F G A B

    G A B C D E F#
    G A Bb C D E F#
    G# A B C D E F#

    D E F# G A B C#
    D E F G A B C#
    D# E F# G A B C#

    etc, through the circle of fifths...

    now, i'm relatively new here but i've found myself in LCC and CST and WTF arguments before so let me head that one off at the pass: this thread has an off switch. you don't have to read it. if you like what i'm doing, stay tuned; if not, of course you may say so but please please please don't go on and on about it so that those who are interested can play ball, okay?

    simple alteration. all i have done is take major scales that you should already know and proposed that you change a mere one note in order to make cool things happen. cool?

    major scale
    major scale with lowered third
    major scale with raised root

    try this with seventh chords like this:

    A7, play:
    D E F# G A B C#
    D E F G A B C#
    D# E F# G A B C#

    D7, play
    G A B C D E F#
    G A Bb C D E F#
    G# A B C D E F#

    G7, play:
    C D E F G A B
    C D Eb F G A B
    C# D E F G A B

    and there are more neat subs for this kind of thing, but i'm being sneaky: if you even 50% accept the previous exercise, you're already halfway through three eighths of what i call the chromatic cube. please remember that i'm advocating no theoretical causality or historical and/or cultural significance of any kind whatsoever. i've invented nothing! just trying to get players to look at the possibilities. a series of closely related relationships that can in fact be demonstrated on the guitar fretboard:

    -----------------------------3-5-
    -----------------------3-5-6-----
    -----------------2-4-5-----------
    -----------2-3-5-----------------
    -----2-3-5-----------------------
    -3-5-----------------------------

    -----------------------------3-5-
    -----------------------3-4-6-----
    -----------------2-4-5-----------
    -----------1-3-5-----------------
    -----2-3-5-----------------------
    -3-5-----------------------------

    -----------------------------3-5-
    -----------------------3-5-6-----
    -----------------2-4-6-----------
    -----------2-3-5-----------------
    -----2-4-5-----------------------
    -3-5-----------------------------


    and by moving the alterations that create double whole steps on a single string, thus forcing major third stretches (uncomfortable for especially for younger players) to a different string:

    -----------------------------3-5-
    -----------------------3-4-6-----
    -----------------2-4-5-----------
    -------------3-5-----------------
    -----2-3-5-6---------------------
    -3-5-----------------------------

    -----------------------------3-5-
    ---------------------2-3-5-6-----
    -----------------2-4-------------
    -----------2-3-5-----------------
    -----2-4-5-----------------------
    -3-5-----------------------------


    anyhoo, just an example of how the melodic minors can "piggyback" on to the major scales with out a huge amount of thinking. remember that all the verbose setting up i used to demonstrated the exercise is a one time thing. from now on, it's simple:

    1) flat the third

    2) raise the root

    more later, if the CST cops don't raid the party

    play well
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-07-2012 at 02:19 PM.

  14. #13

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    Hey Dogbite.... Thanks for taking time to breakdown your system of developing fingerings. It's interesting, and I can see how it might be cool method for rock or somewhat mechanical type guitar players to have a quicker method of developing some chops in that same tradition.

    Generally playing jazz in a jazz style requires an understanding of what your playing/hearing. To be aware of relationships and possible relationships beyond mechanical connections. There are many methods of becoming aware of those relationships... Trial and error being very common for guitar players, and I'm sure through your fingerings relationships will develop. But really looks like the system will hit walls and somewhat requires re-learning standard fingerings to be able to interact with other common jazz harmonic sources for pulling from.
    Still... I enjoy your posts and will gladly read more etc...
    Thanks Reg

  15. #14

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    To me, the fingering becomes less important as I read this than the roadmap it expands...but I'm really liking the idea of the simple alterations to the major scale piece.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Dogbite.... Thanks for taking time to breakdown your system of developing fingerings. It's interesting, and I can see how it might be cool method for rock or somewhat mechanical type guitar players to have a quicker method of developing some chops in that same tradition.

    Generally playing jazz in a jazz style requires an understanding of what your playing/hearing. To be aware of relationships and possible relationships beyond mechanical connections. There are many methods of becoming aware of those relationships... Trial and error being very common for guitar players, and I'm sure through your fingerings relationships will develop. But really looks like the system will hit walls and somewhat requires re-learning standard fingerings to be able to interact with other common jazz harmonic sources for pulling from.
    Still... I enjoy your posts and will gladly read more etc...
    Thanks Reg
    thanks reg,

    yes, much jazz is best not approached with a "key signature" or diatonic based methodology. "well you needn't" comes to mind, as it's more of an "arpeggio/interval" kind of melody and i'm sure we can collectively find a plethora of other examples. perhaps you would agree that this particular approach would be more useful for modal grooves with long periods of time between chord changes. not sure i agree that relearning fingerings is required, as all of the ones i use are either standard fingerings or otherwise in somebody's book of fingerings. the fingerings you already know should suffice.

    of course, this is not the whole "system" (gawsh i'm starting to dislike that word) and in any event, it isn't meant to be a "complete" approach. for the heads of tunes, i don't think it's useful at all; for improvised solos tho, i think it's great (i freely confess that for many tunes, a simple bluesy major/minor pentatonic combo approach is my preference but even then, an occasional departure into "all this" may spice things up nicely) tho don't forget to quote the melody!

    i agree that the cognition, or awareness as you say, of relationships mustn't be denied either. iow, whatever alterations actually used will have some relationship to the chord tones and/or overall key center and that a player must at some point investigate them. (i guess i have an advantage in already knowing them after studying things like aebersold's scale syllabus at a fairly early stage. have you ever got the impression that you "learned them and then forgot them," having been made more "whole" from the experience?)

    [edit: i learned how to improvise long before i knew the bulk of this stuff, certainly not diminished and wholetone so i don't talk about blues scales and pentatonics as much - they seem so obvious to me. with students it is different: you must put yourself in your old shoes and let them take the walk with you, rather than dragging them into the future that they cannot yet see]

    regarding those relationships for example, look what has been produced for minor chords:

    Dm7
    D dorian
    C D E F G A B
    C D Eb F G A B
    C# D E F G A B

    in this case, the relationships to the Dm chord or tonality are:
    1) simple dorian scale
    2) mode ii of melodic minor
    3) the melodic minor itself

    1) is in everybody's vocabulary
    2) is slightly unusual but i have come to like the diminished fragment (5 6 b7 1 b2 b3) as well as the "phrygian with natural sixth sound," and
    3) is in almost everybody's vocab...

    here's another snippet:

    do both alterations, sharp the root and flat the third.

    C# D E F G A B + C D Eb F G A B = C# D Eb F G A

    and it's starting look very wholetone to me and by leaving out the D:

    C# Eb F G A B

    over G7 (on which you may have used the diatonic C scale anyway) a traditional usage of wholetone appears, G+7(9#11) but over the minor chord:

    Dm7 with 1) phrygian's b9 2) melodic minor's natural seventh and 3) a missing root!

    exercise for the day: use wholetone on minor chords in this manner, the wholetone outlining the b3 4 5 and 6 of the minor chordscale.

    and now there be four:

    C D E F G A B
    C D Eb F G A B
    C# D E F G A B
    C# Eb F G A B

    "to be able to interact with other common jazz harmonic sources for pulling from."

    i'd like to finish the other four alterations and see if i can't hit many of those sources you speak of. here's a hint for the next two: the diminished scale may be generated by splitting the fifth of melodic minor (b5 as well as #5) and there are two melodic minors on the table. hmmm, what shall we do with that?

    after that, the harmonic minor/major thingy. note how that wholetone combo takes advantage of the 4 5 6 7 wholetone frag already present in the major scale. agreed that there are many approaches and that this will not be everybody's bag of tea. i like the connectivity, that even diminished and wholetone may be derived from a basic diatonic nucleus.

    i'll add more tonite, and thanks again for hearing me out. as with all things in life, season to taste, and discard that which does not provide.
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-08-2012 at 04:28 AM. Reason: edit

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogbite

    i don't know how "common" modes of harmonic major actually are, as i don't here players bring it up often but some for sure...
    My little contribution in front of this monumental system, is that when I play Stella by S., there is a G7#5 at the bridge which goes well with an Eb harmonic major

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz_175
    My little contribution in front of this monumental system, is that when I play Stella by S., there is a G7#5 at the bridge which goes well with an Eb harmonic major
    i did find a harmonic major passage in a bach piece for flute once but i'll die happy if i can remember what it was

    truth be told, i think harmonic major is one of the forgotten gems in band folders, which should include this along with major and the three forms of the minor scale. add dorian while you're at it, as it shows up in real music often enough...

    and just to show that i look at real music once in a while (every damn day actually) here's something of a keyboard harmony i transcribed best i could:

    intro vamp, repeated four times w/ C pedal:

    E---------Eb
    B---------Bb
    F#--------F
    Bsus/C----Bbsus/C

    head

    D#--------Eb--------D#--------Eb
    B---------Bb--------B---------Bb
    F#--------F---------F#--------F
    B/C-------Bbsus/C---B/C-------Bbsus/C


    F---------Eb
    C---------Bb
    F#--------F
    D7#9------G+7#9

    D#--------Eb--------D#--------Eb
    B---------Bb--------B---------Bb
    F#--------F---------F#--------F
    B/C-------Bbsus/C---B/C-------Bbsus/C

    F---------F#
    C---------D
    F#--------A
    (D)-------(D#)
    D7#9------B7#9

    G---------G
    D---------Eb
    B---------Bb
    E---------F
    Em7-------Ebadd9/E


    D---------C#
    B---------A
    G---------G
    A9sus-----A7

    F---------E
    C---------B
    A---------G#
    Dm7-------G13b9


    A---------G
    F---------Eb
    C---------Bb
    G---------F
    D---------C
    Ebmaj9#11-Dbmaj9#11
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-08-2012 at 05:05 AM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogbite
    use wholetone on minor chords in this manner, the wholetone outlining the b3 4 5 and 6 of the minor chordscale.
    Yeah, this works great. I like to keep the root in, which gives the Neapolitan scale (personally I find undiluted WT phrases a bit "spaced out" and unstructured for my liking).

    You can pretty much just build the Neapolitan modes on the fly according to taste, since you just throw in a chromatic note wherever taste dictates, but this is the only one that works smoothly over m7 chords.

    +1 for Dorian b9 as well -- I don't really know why this isn't used more often. It sounds great and it's easy to find if you know your Melodic Minor.

    Jazz_175 -- I'm going to try that Harmonic Major idea today. I haven't played with this scale much but I'm definitely starting to agree with Dogbite that it has good stuff in it that's worth exploring.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Cochrane

    Jazz_175 -- I'm going to try that Harmonic Major idea today. I haven't played with this scale much but I'm definitely starting to agree with Dogbite that it has good stuff in it that's worth exploring.
    To tell the truth that's not my idea. I got it from Rick Peckam's home page, where you can download a file containing examples of harmonic major in standard chord progressions.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz_175
    To tell the truth that's not my idea. I got it from Rick Peckam's home page, where you can download a file containing examples of harmonic major in standard chord progressions.
    Thanks, I didn't know of Rick Peckham. I liked this rather a lot (and I thought it was a good counterexample to the "Berkeley/CST guys just run scales up and down" claim):


  22. #21

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    thanks for the link rich,

    i poked around with this neapolitan scale some time ago, which seems to be an exaggerated melodic minor, in which the two semitones from the major are placed further apart and thus closer together:

    major
    1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½

    melodic minor
    1 ½ 1 1 1 1 ½

    neapolitan
    ½ 1 1 1 1 1 ½

    here's a modal analysis:

    ionian b2 b3, dorian b2 #7, phrygian #6 #7
    1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7

    [dorian b1 b2], [phrygian #6 b1], lydian #5 #6
    1 2 3 #4 #5 #6 7

    [phrygian b7 b1], lydian #5 b7, mixolydian #4 b5
    1 2 3 #4 #5 6 b7

    lydian b6 b7, mixolydian #4 b6, aeolian #3 #4
    1 2 3 #4 5 b6 b7

    mixolydian b5 b6, aeolian #3 b5, locrian #2 #3
    1 2 3 4 b5 b6 b7

    aeolian b4 b5, locrian #2 b4, [ionian #1 #2]
    1 2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

    locrian b3 b4, [ionian #1 b3], [dorian #7 #1]
    1 b2 bb3 b4 b5 b6 b7
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-08-2012 at 06:11 AM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogbite
    truth be told, i think harmonic major is one of the forgotten gems in band folders, which should include this along with major and the three forms of the minor scale.
    One of my old jazz teachers said the exact same thing. He had us practising:

    MAJOR
    HARMONIC MINOR
    MELODIC MINOR
    HARMONIC MAJOR

    ... in all keys and modes.

    (Only 2 forms of minor, because natural/aeolian is a mode of major. Know major, you know all its modes.)

    He also showed us how harmonic major was a good fit for that chord in Stevie Wonder's "You Are The Sunshine of My Life", between the Em7 and Dm7. It's a kind of A13b9 (or Gb/A), and D harmonic major is a neat idea.
    If you ignore the 13, F harmonic major also works, which is the same idea as Jazz_175's Eb harmonic major on G7#5. The scale it makes is 1-b2-b3-3-5-b6-b7: dom7 with b9, #9 and b13 = altered scale with perfect 5th!

    My own candidate for use of harmonic major in the melody of a composition is the bridge of Irving Berlin's "Blue Skies".
    Last edited by JonR; 06-08-2012 at 05:17 AM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    (Only 2 forms of minor, because natural/aeolian is a mode of major. Know major, you know all its modes.)
    hearing you loud and clear jon. two forms of major and two forms of minor

  25. #24

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    if one were to look at the major scale, in terms of the I IV and V chords as triads:

    I - 1 3 5
    IV - 4 6 1 (1, 3, and 5 of the IV)
    V - 5 7 2 (1, 3, and 5 of the V)

    (ionian mode, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)

    then the other three scales that jon mentioned, in addition to the major scale as well as modes of all four of them, may be generated in the following manner:

    I - 1 3 5
    IV - 4 6 1
    v - 5 b7 2 (b7 is b3 of the v chord)

    (mixolydian mode, 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7)

    - - - - -

    i - 1 b3 5
    IV - 4 6 1
    v - 5 b7 2

    (dorian mode, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7)

    - - - - -

    i - 1 b3 5
    iv - 4 b6 1 (b6 is b3 of the iv chord)
    v - 5 b7 2

    (aeolian mode, 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)

    - - - - -

    i - 1 b3 5
    IV - 4 6 1
    V - 5 7 2

    (melodic minor, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7)

    - - - - -

    I - 1 3 5
    iv - 4 b6 1
    v - 5 b7 2

    (melodic minor, fifth mode, 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7)

    - - - - -

    i - 1 b3 5
    iv - 4 b6 1
    V - 5 7 2

    (harmonic minor, 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7)

    - - - - -

    I - 1 3 5
    iv - 4 b6 1
    V - 5 7 2

    (harmonic major, 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7)

    it may very well be that the consonance of these eight scales is derived from the consonance of their respective I, IV and V triads. if this be the case, then the relative dissonance of scales such as lydian and phrygian may be derived from the dissonance of the diminished triad on either the tonic step (locrian mode) subdominant (lydian mode) and dominant (phrygian)

    i don't want to make too much of a big deal over this but as a player who has incorporated triads and other arpeggios into my melodic style, it is difficult for me to not notice things like this. as with all things, do with what you will, but check out the cool effects achieved through implementing the above:

    iv V in Am:

    Dm E, a lovely eastern sound

    I iv in C:

    C Fm, common in ballads, may be played as either modal interchange (C major/C minor) or harmonic major...

    i'll point out also that the sequence V I IV represents motion along the circle of fifths; therefore, there are similar implications in the strong root motion along the "circle progression:"

    vi ii V I

    Am7 Dm7 G7 C

    iii VI ii V I

    Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C (also, ii/ii V7/ii ii V7 I or ii V7 in D followed by ii V7 I in C)

    would recommend that jazz players become comfortable with "displaced" ii V7 sets in any context, as chromatic motion of ii V7s is common:

    Abm7 Db7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7

    Bbm7 Eb7 Gm7 C7 Fmaj7

    Lover Man - real book II

    - - - - -

    Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C

    Em A = E dorian
    A Dm = D harmonic or melodic minor
    Dm G = D dorian
    G7 C = a continuation of the original diatonic ii V7 I

    better for arpeggios rather than a global tonality, but C major/C blues works just fine if your going for a horizontal sound.* target the chord of resolution as far back as you want, so for:

    F#m7b5 B7 Em7b5 A7b9 Dm7 G7#9 Cmaj7

    there's no reason you can't just play (in the key of) "C" for the whole smash. please don't misinterpret descriptions like these as "mygawd i have to play D harmonic minor for two beats of a parker tune at mm=340."

    if anything, try to introduce D# as you lead into the Em and C# as you lead into the Dm but please don't get stuck in the scale, as it were.

    play well and have fun

    ps - just a diversion; i'll get back to those related scales that i introduced earlier in very short order...

    * horizontal sound = global tonal center, target ends of phrases, cadences, resolutions with any of the above scales (don't forget blues scales either) as opposed to:

    * vertical sound = local tonal centers, where each chord may be it's own universe, more appropriate for slower tempos as well as modal grooves where the chords may last as long as 32 measures...

    more on this temporal aspect in a future post also. human perception (and expectation) of time is of import.

    stay tuned (and in tune
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-09-2012 at 06:34 AM.

  26. #25

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    G7

    1) C major [G mixolydian, G7/9/11/13]
    C D E F G A B

    2) D melodic minor [G mixolydian #4 (lydian dominant), G7/9/#11/13]
    C# D E F G A B

    essentially a hybrid lydian/mixolydian scale

    3) C melodic minor [G mixolydian b6 (aeolian dominant), G7/9/11/b13]
    C D Eb F G A B

    essentially a hybrid aeolian/mixolydian scale

    4) wholetone [G mixolydian #4, b6, omit 5: G+7/9/#11]

    these are the four scales alluded to earlier, as simple alterations of the diatonic C scale. note also how wholetone appears as a combination of the first two alterations.

    now, let's split them fifths, of melodic minor:

    5) D melodic minor [G mixolydian #4 (lydian dominant), G7/9/#11/13]
    with split fifth:
    C# D E F G G# Bb B
    G half/whole diminished: G7±9#11/13

    cool

    now here's an unexpected twist:

    6) C melodic minor [G mixolydian b6 (aeolian dominant), G7/9/11/b13]
    with split fifth:
    C D Eb F F# Ab A B
    and you're going, "huh?"

    but with the guide tones F and B, the essential of defining tones of the tritone from the original diatonic scale, damn if the thing can't be made to work after all:

    C D Eb F F# Ab A B

    G7 (no root) with both natural and flat ninths, a natural eleventh, and a flat thirteenth (and a, um, major seventh)

    because it is the root of the G7 that finally got split yes, it is weird; however, it is a logical expansion of the diatonic C scale and with both the third and seventh (of the G7 chord) intact, the targeting tones provide the anchor to the last vestiges of normalcy.

    and yes, i am trying to stretch the box here

    wait till you see the last one!
    Last edited by dogbite; 06-10-2012 at 04:25 PM.