Bebop Scales

[dogbite]

i had trouble editing this, so i'll make changes in the next couple of days - work in progress, if i can get the BB to put the whole thing up - stay tuned...

so, we have heard of at least one jazz instructor who advocates learning the following four scales:

1) major
2) minor (melodic, ascending form)
3) major, harmonic
4) minor, harmonic

perhaps one reason is because these are the only four seven-tone scales that produce only the four classically defined triads: major, minor, augmented and diminished:

I ii iii IV V vi vii°

i ii bIII+ IV V vi° vii°

I ii° iii iv V bVI+ vii°

i ii° bIII+ iv V bVI vii°

and this is because all of the thirds are either major or minor, or no diminished or augmented thirds are present...

but there is another list i've seen as well:

1) major
2) minor (melodic, ascending form)
3) diminished
4) wholetone

and not only are all of the thirds major and minor, but only whole and half steps are present, in addition to the restriction that no consecutive half steps appear, which would result in a diminished third...

of course that last bit was unnecessary, as it was manifest in the first list except for one thing however: that the first list allowed augmented seconds, the voice leading nightmare that resulted in the creation of the melodic minor scale in the first place...

but the way i'm talking about melodic minor is very different than the conventions of western art music; in fact, superlocrian scales weren't exactly prevalent in early period music as i recall from any studies i've seen. so why all the introspection?

well, let's go see: the lists above give us a total of six scales that somebody thinks are important enough to learn outright:

1) major
2) melodic minor
3) diminished
4) wholetone

hey, that's 17 modes already for those who are counting...

5) harmonic major
6) harmonic minor

for a grand total of 41 modes!!!

sarcasm: gee, why would i want to simplify anything

so if i go off and say that if i relate all of these scales in the manner already discussed be me and that other guy...

okay, here's how it works:

G7

related major scale: C major
*unaltered C scale: C D E F G A B (G7/9/11/13)
*sharp the C: C# D E F G A B (G7/9/#11/13)
*flat the E: C D Eb F G A B (G7/9/11/b13)
*combine the two above alterations (i know that rich cochrane liked leaving the D in there, but our system as it stands "splits" the two here: C# Eb F G A B (G+7/9/#11) yeah you could say G7/9/#11/b13 no5 too - kill the no 5 part if rich gets his way
*split the five of both of the melodic minors: C# D E F G G# Bb B (G7/±9/#11/13) yeah, standard description of the half/whole diminished scale, and:
*the other melodic minor that in this mode (G mixolydian) makes for a rather weird situation, yet still has the characteristic guide tones B and F to hold together just enough mixolydian-ness to work...

and there are two more alterations:

*the octatonic scale C D E F G G#/Ab A B which supersets not only the harmonic major and minor (such as G7/b9/11/13) but also the C major bebop scale (about which i'd like to reiterate has no causal or historical significance whatsoever to the use of bebop scales in jazz instruction, as i do not use them as such)

*the eighth scale, which i would like to hold off on until i redefine the other ones in simpler language. let me confess that the language used already is just too damn complicated for normal operations (playing on the fly) and that others' attempts imho have failed miserably

let me also point out that in order to buy into this system, 1) you don't have to accept the whole thing, 2) you don't have to buy expensive lessons, either by skype or by telephone; i'm giving you this for free, and of course i realize that free advice is seldom cheap and 3) all this stuff is in this real cool book of fingerings and maybe i'm a better advocate but hey:

i can show you easy examples:

E7b9 Am

E phrygian A dorian

octatonic gives you spanish phrygian E F G G# A B C D E cuz G never had to be left out anyway...

G7(13b9) C

G mixolydian C lydian

D melodic minor (first one mentioned above) with split fifth makes half/whole diminished you would have picked anyway...

this may be a system, but it is my system that makes sense to me and i have a language to describe the particulars in one word for each of the alterations, and all commonly used scales (such as aebersold's list of 25+ scales in his syllabus and russell's list of seven VTG scales and all of the six i started with in my humble post) appear as logical extensions of the diatonic (major) scale.

limiting factors

why do i think you should limit your choices? actually i don't, as this is merely a landscape on which you may view tonal (harmonic as well as melodic) events. the math kind of works out like this:

0 tones have 0 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 1 key for a total of 1 tonal combination

1 tone has 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 12 keys for a total of 12 tonal combinations

2 tones have 10 inversions / modes of 5 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 60 tonal combinations plus 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 6 keys with a total of 6 tonal combinations equals 11 inversions / modes of 6 pitch sets for a total of 66 tonal combinations

3 tones have 54 inversions / modes of 18 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 216 tonal combinations plus 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 4 keys with a total of 4 tonal combinations equals 55 inversions / modes of 19 pitch sets for a total of 220 tonal combinations

4 tones have 160 inversions / modes of 40 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 480 tonal combinations plus 4 inversions / modes of 2 pitch sets in 6 keys with a total of 12 tonal combinations plus 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 3 keys with a total of 3 tonal combinations equals 165 inversions / modes of 43 pitch sets for a total of 495 tonal combinations

5 tones have 330 inversions / modes of 66 pitch sets in 12 keys for a total of 792 tonal combinations

6 tones have 450 inversions / modes of 75 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 900 tonal combinations plus 9 inversions / modes of 3 pitch sets in 6 keys with a total of 18 tonal combinations plus 2 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 4 keys with a total of 4 tonal combinations plus 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 2 keys with a total of 2 tonal combinations equals 462 inversions / modes of 80 pitch sets for a total of 924 tonal combinations

7 tones have 462 inversions / modes of 66 pitch sets in 12 keys for a total of 792 tonal combinations

8 tones have 320 inversions / modes of 40 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 480 tonal combinations plus 8 inversions / modes of 2 pitch sets in 6 keys with a total of 12 tonal combinations plus 2 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 3 keys with a total of 3 tonal combinations equals 330 inversions / modes of 43 pitch sets for a total of 495 tonal combinations

9 tones have 162 inversions / modes of 18 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 216 tonal combinations plus 3 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 4 keys with a total of 4 tonal combinations equals 165 inversions / modes of 19 pitch sets for a total of 220 tonal combinations

10 tones have 50 inversions / modes of 5 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 60 tonal combinations plus 5 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 6 keys with a total of 6 tonal combinations equals 55 inversions / modes of 6 pitch sets for a total of 66 tonal combinations

11 tones have 11 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 12 keys for a total of 12 tonal combinations

12 tones have 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 1 key for a total of 1 tonal combination

there are 2048 inversions / modes of 352 pitch sets for a total of 4096 tonal combinations
...

now why oh why would i want to simplify THAT???

this is not in the "Fingering Mastery" book that jeff plugged. it is however, described simply as 352 sets of guitar fingerings in:

"The Scale Book"

http://www.lulu.com/shop/schell-bark...-12206841.html

it is not a method. in fact it has no text whatsoever; it is merely a complete list as standard five-fret guitar fingering diagrams of all 352 sets in all twelve positions!!!

i'm glad i have copies of this. if you name a scale, neapolitan, enigmatic (ascending or descending) or whatever, it's in there. the universe in 90 page (88 really)

but "Fingering Mastery" is a compendium of useful scales. what is useful? well, the part listed above before i listed the 4096 tonal combinations of 2048 inversions/modes of 352 types. from the bottom, up and from the top, down. between me and jeff, we have provided as much or as little as you might need for a fingering encyclopedia. yeah, the pentatonics are in there too...

i'm not really trying to sell books tho. i can answer questions one at a time. you've seen that i don't deal with insults real well, in which case i would simply recommend that you sell your own books

what i really find amusing is when someone tries to explain the math to me. don't bother, as i figured out the lists above, all of them, all by myself over the course of say, 25 years after my first teachers couldn't tell me how many four-note chords there were. now i know

do i teach this to students? nope. some know about it, these kinds of studies; and most of them have seen the fingering books but i don't write beginner books, as there are a plethora of books already on the market for this purpose. these are resource books, which may keep you as busy as you want to be for as long as you want to keep busy. i'll admit this much: i'm never bored

[dogbite]

i just wanted to explain that i didn't come up with this stuff yesterday, or last week or last month. it took a bit of time, so if you'll do me the honor of using this space, i'd like to discuss the language component of the new work, Fingering Mastery.

ps - "mastery" here is about fingerings and the memorization thereof. i can't make you swing any more than my goldfish can swing if you don't have the chops and the gift of music, which doesn't come from books

peas

[dogbite]

so here's what went wrong with the last big fat post, currently post #29 in this thread:

according to the BB system, i broke a record and exceeded 10,000 characters or otherwise pasted from a spreadsheet content that was interpreted by the BB system as containing pictures...

so i had to paste the doc onto a notepad (thus removing all links, smileys, underlines, bold and italics) as well as split the doc into two parts, the final paragraph becoming post #30. i still need to run through and check for things but back on track, however:

one of the 352 sets (of all possible harmony/melody combinations within the twelve-tone system) has no notes in it:

"0 tones have 0 inversions / modes of 1 pitch set in 1 key for a total of 1 tonal combination" and it represents complete silence.

"1 tone has 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 12 keys for a total of 12 tonal combinations"

this is a single note with no external reference and/or context, no intervals. as such it also is not terribly interesting except perhaps as a meditation drone

now it gets interesting:

2 tones have 10 inversions / modes of 5 pitch sets in 12 keys with a total of 60 tonal combinations plus 1 inversion / mode of 1 pitch set in 6 keys with a total of 6 tonal combinations equals 11 inversions / modes of 6 pitch sets for a total of 66 tonal combinations

here they are:

1) two tones separated by a minor second. set theory calls it [0 1] (imagine a couple of bugs on a twelve tone clock of half steps, one at noon and the other at one o'clock)

its inversion is the major seventh [0 11]

2) two tones separated by a major second (also: diminished third) [0 2]

its inversion is the minor seventh (also: augmented sixth) [0 10]

3) two tones separated by a minor third (also: augmented second) [0 3]

its inversion is the major sixth (also: diminished seventh) [0 9]

4) two tones separated by a major third (also: diminished fourth) [0 4]

its inversion is the minor sixth (also: augmented fifth) [0 8]

5) two tones separated by a perfect fourth (also: augmented third) [0 5]

its inversion is the perfect fifth (also: diminished sixth) [0 7]

6) two tones separated by an augmented fourth (the tritone, its own inversion: the diminished fifth) [0 6]

exercise for the day, in whatever style you choose: experience all six of the above situations. can you hear a half step when it is played for you? how about when inverted such as harmonized major sevenths? whole steps boring you? invert one of the tones to create minor sevenths instead. there are many possibilities to use these two-note exercises to further your ear training, not to mention that each of these represent modulations. can you hear a key change of four sharps or flats? i usually can, and it is still a shift of 04 along the circle of half steps...

i corrected one link in the big fat post; i'll go back later and fix other things. hope you enjoy

ps - the triads are a whole lot more interesting! the purpose of all this is so that you don't miss anything in terms of the actual possibilities. i asked a teacher once, "how many chords are there anyway?" he did not know. the answer turned out to be easier than i thought as well as more complex in terms of certain structures (such as messiaen's "modes of limited transposition") being harmonic inversions (modes), melodic inversions (mirror images) and compliments (negative images) of each other.

sorry to go on and on. i'll stop soon, about this anyway. i'm not going through all twelve tones in this manner, not here. i'll do all the triads and some of the seventh chords but i wanted to share some of the joy i've experienced in terms of bugs on the edge of twelve-tone clocks and how the sounds of unusual structures may be used in a jazz context.

[dogbite]

there are two triads that i consider "special" for composition and improvisation, the major and minor triads. an analysis of the intervals produce only "consonant" intervals, of course with the awareness that the perfect fourth is considered "conditionally" consonant:

1
> P4
5
> m3
3
> M3
1

1
> m6
3
> M6
5
> P5
1


1
> P4
5
> M3
b3
> m3
1

1
> M6
b3
> m6
5
> P5
1

major triads in subs:

Db/C7 = C7(b9/11/b13) or C+7b9sus

D/C7 = C7(9/#11/13) [lydian dominant]
C/Cmaj7 = Cmaj7/9/#11/13 [lydian]

Eb/C7 = C7#9
Eb/C = Cm7

E/C = Cmaj7#5 (C+ ma7)

Gb/C7 = C7(b9#11) (b5b9)

G/Cmaj7 = Cmaj9

Ab/C7 = C+7#9

A/C7 = C7(13b9)

Bb/C7 =C9sus

these are just some of the possibilities. yeah i was a little looser with the fifths towards the end of the list, as in actuality i am in the camp of b5=#4=#11 cuz i can't read the minds of arrangers either

[JohnW400]

Hey , Welcome to the forum.

Don't forget the all purpose B/C

Ab7#9/C
D13b9/C
Cmi/ma7b5

or even
Cma7#9#11 (the forum had a quite the discussion oh hearing this as the I chord a while back)

Glad to see these posts. Interesting perspective

[dogbite]

Hey , Welcome to the forum.

Don't forget the all purpose B/C

Ab7#9/C
D13b9/C
Cmi/ma7b5

or even
Cma7#9#11 (the forum had a quite the discussion oh hearing this as the I chord a while back)

Glad to see these posts. Interesting perspective

thanks john,

yeah i guess i wimped out on that one, eh?

as the tonic even? it might be the quintessential whole-half diminished chord! point me to that discussion if you can, as i'd like to see...

i usually take the Cmi/maj7b5 interpretation for B/C and refer to it as "diminished major seventh" as well; and you're right, as a sub for Ab7#9(nat 5) and D13b9 it's great:

D#
B
F#
C

or voiced as:

B
D#
C
F#

funny thing that this very same chord shows up in my previous post of a carlton tune:

intro vamp, repeated four times w/ C pedal:

E---------Eb
B---------Bb
F#--------F
Bsus/C----Bbsus/C

head

D#--------Eb--------D#--------Eb
B---------Bb--------B---------Bb
F#--------F---------F#--------F
B/C-------Bbsus/C---B/C-------Bbsus/C


F---------Eb
C---------Bb
F#--------F
D7#9------G+7#9

D#--------Eb--------D#--------Eb
B---------Bb--------B---------Bb
F#--------F---------F#--------F
B/C-------Bbsus/C---B/C-------Bbsus/C

F---------F#
C---------D
F#--------A
(D)-------(D#)
D7#9------B7#9

G---------G
D---------Eb
B---------Bb
E---------F
Em7-------Ebadd9/E


D---------C#
B---------A
G---------G
A9sus-----A7

F---------E
C---------B
A---------G#
Dm7-------G13b9


A---------G
F---------Eb
C---------Bb
G---------F
D---------C
Ebmaj9#11-Dbmaj9#11

ps - phil kelly was pointing out to me that the enharmonic weirdness between the D# and Eb could be avoided by calling it Cb/C

quartal subs are funny like that too, in that the standard spellings often don't match the functionality being subbed for...

[dogbite]

i LOVE quartals. scooting through functional harmony with non-

Csus Dsus Esus Fsus+4 Gsus Asus Bsus-5

F-----G-----A-----B-----C-----D-----E
C-----D-----E-----F-----G-----A-----B
G-----A-----B-----C-----D-----E-----F

for Dm7 and stuff like that...

altered quartals from F melodic minor for E7#9 superlocrian too:

Fsus Gsus Absus+4+5 Bbsus+4 Csus Dsus-5 Esus-4-5

Bb----C-----D-----E-----F-----G-----Ab
F-----G-----Ab----Bb----C-----D-----E
C-----D-----E-----F-----G-----Ab----Bb

note the similarity between major and minor (melodic) as to the sus chords:

I(sus) ii(sus) iii(sus) IV(sus+4) V(sus) vi(sus) vii°(sus-5)

i(sus) ii(sus) bIII+(sus+4+5) IV(sus+4) V(sus) vi°(sus-5) vii°(sus-4-5)

i usually play them on strings 2, 3 and 4

[dogbite]

now here's the diatonic quartal in fifths, showing the symmetry with respect to axis "D" of course specifically stating that i advocate no presscriptive and/or causal value to it other than that it makes thins easier to memorize:

B-----F-----C-----G-----D-----A-----E
F-----C-----G-----D-----A-----E-----B
C-----D-----D-----A-----E-----B-----F

and a linear symmetry as well:

D-----E-----F-----G-----A-----B-----C
A-----B-----C-----D-----E-----F-----G
E-----F-----G-----A-----B-----C-----D

but what i'd really like to bring up is that CAGED (not my term set of five fingerings, yes just a template but i do remember an argument (in a galaxy far far away) in which it was proposed (by a student obviously) that only one or two fingerings need be memorized even though every teacher in the other side of said galaxy said, collectively, "horse puckey."

participant JH was actually advocated a twelve position approach which this dog enthusiastically supports without hesitation (both the five position CAGED and twelve position chromatic approaches appear in Fingering Mastery) but in any event, i'd like to show you a cool exercise that may be done in five positions on the guitar:
-------------3-
-----------3---
---------4-----
-------5-------
---2-5---------
-3-------------

---------------------3-5-
-----------------3-5-----
-------------2-4---------
---------2-5-------------
-----2-5-----------------
-3-5---------------------

-----------------------------2-3-5-
-------------------------3-5-------
-------------------2-4-5-----------
-------------2-4-5-----------------
-------2-3-5-----------------------
-2-3-5-----------------------------

yes, up and down as well as to do this chromatically up and down the neck naming the triad, pentatonic, and diatonic as you go. repeat with all five patterns according to CAGED...

why? because it's good for you

ps - whether you name the five shapes in your own mind matters not, as long as you know which one you're doing. here are some options:

sixth string root (language used in my original 1993 book)
E form (CAGED system used by joe pass and others)
form 1 (what i currently use in Fingering Mastery)
position 1 (also provided in Fingering Mastery)

fourth string root
D form
form 2
position 2

second string root
C form
form 3
position 3

fifth string root
A form
form 4
position 5

third string root
G form
form 5
position 6

i used to do the above exercise all the time, then i stopped. it's now time for me to do it again

[Rich Cochrane]

On this note I've been looking at getting quartal voicings out of Melodic Minor this afternoon and wondered if we could compare notes. Here's what I have for A Melodic Minor, just ascending up the neck on the top 5 strings:

X00112
X22234
X34455
X56577
X77798
X999(10)(10)
X(11)(10)(11)(12)(12)

Some of them come out with major thirds in, which I don't like so much, but generally they have that quartal sound. Is this how you do them? Is there a standard way?

Here's how they sound (along with a few fumbles):

[JakeAcci]

Rich, I messed with those a while ago and even posted on a forum about them, but the good point was made to me then that the "flatted fourth" in melodic minor really takes away from the quartal sound.

I suppose it's all fair game though, if you like the sound and can find uses for it. I just don't really hear a lot of those as quartal in their aesthetic.

I think there's something about 'smoothness,' for lack of a better word, in the standard quartal harmony that is lost through some of the melodic minor modes. Subjective for sure.

[dogbite]

On this note I've been looking at getting quartal voicings out of Melodic Minor this afternoon and wondered if we could compare notes. Here's what I have for A Melodic Minor, just ascending up the neck on the top 5 strings:

X00112
X22234
X34455
X56577
X77798
X999(10)(10)
X(11)(10)(11)(12)(12)

Some of them come out with major thirds in, which I don't like so much, but generally they have that quartal sound. Is this how you do them? Is there a standard way?

Here's how they sound (along with a few fumbles):

rich,

i normally play them as three-tone quartal triads and yes, the "diatonic" diminished fourth from melodic minor is behaving like an enharmonic major third:



-A----Bb---C----Db---Eb---F----G----A-
-1----b2---b3---b4---b5---b6---b7---8-
-1----b9---#9---3----b5---#5---b7---8-



here's a neat little intro i came up with for ii V7 i:



-Am7---Am7/E-Bm7b5-E7(alt)-

---------------------------
-C-----C-----C#----E-------
-G-----G-----A-----Bb------
-E-----E-----F-----F-------
-A-----------B-------------
-------E-----------E-------



where one of the quartal triads is used for an unusual altered dominant voicing as well as the Bm9b5 from D melodic minor, sixth mode...

the five note voicings you've shown produce a couple of unpleasant, albeit not impossible, fingerings. i dunno where i saw somebody write (ron miller maybe?) about avoiding quartals from "altered" scales beyond a certain number of tones but i don't remember the particulars; therefore, i just keep my ears open for what seems to work. i have it worked out for quartals in harmonic major and minor, but i confess that i've never used them. thanks for the sound link, as i thought it was real purdy

[JohnW400]

IMO, quartals should be learned from every scale. 3 ,4,5,& 6 note voicings and their inversions (4-2, 2-4. Once you go past these you're in quintal territory)

@ Rich, yes you wind up with a b4 (3rd) but that chord gives you a wonderful altered 7th voicing (434455 in A mel mi)

A couple of things you can do with quartals is to play them up and down the neck but also across the neck following the modes

ex. F lydian in first position

122xxx
333xxx
555xxx
x222xx
x334xx
x555xx
xx223x
xx345x
xx556x
xxx233
xxx455

Do this off of each mode up the neck.

The next thing you can do is to make arpeggios out of them but by combing two chords (same as you would make a heptatonic scale out of say C and D triads)

Fma to G

112233 to 333355

play F-G, Bb-C, E-F, A-Bb, D-E, G-A

If anyone is interested I'll post the next steps.

[dogbite]

...

If anyone is interested I'll post the next steps.

absolutely

thanks john!

[dogbite]

the following voicings may be found in "voicings for jazz keyboard," the quartal nature of them being quite suitable for guitar because of standard tuning. the only admonishion was to avoid playing them too low (on keyboard to keep the RH thumb at or above middle C, for guitar this would mean the third voice from the top at or above the fifth fret, assuming that you're using the first five strings



Cmaj6/9------------Cmaj7(6/9/no root)-Cmaj7(6/9/#11/no root no fifth)

C------------------G------------------D
G------------------D------------------A
D------------------A------------------E
A------------------E------------------B
E------------------B------------------F#

E------------------B------------------F#
C------------------G------------------D
G------------------D------------------A
D------------------A------------------E
A------------------E------------------B



i added an inversion (all of these are by the way found in jonnypac's book as well under the section on "so what" chords) to complete a scalar line in the soprano voice here, using all of the above:



Bbmaj7(6/9/#11), Gm, C9sus...

Bb---C----D----E----F----G----A-
F----G----Bb---C----C----D----F-
C----D----F----G----G----Bb---C-
G----A----C----D----G----F----G-
D----E----G----A----A----C----D-



these are also found in the mantooth voicings book, in addition to the polychord fractions (such as C13b9=A/C7) mentioned earlier:



C9[Gb7(alt)]-F13[B7(alt)]-Am7[D9sus]

C------------C------------C--E-
G------------G------------G--C-
D------------D------------D--G-
Bb-----------A------------A--D-
E------------Eb-----------E--A-



not "pure" quartals but based upon them. i like these too:

-5-----9
-9-----13
-b7----3
-3-----b7

in addition to the diatonic four-tone quartals here:



Bbmaj7(6/9/#11), Gm, C7,9sus,etc...

-1---3---5---6---8---10--12--13-
-1---3---5---6---8---10--11--13-
-0---2---3---5---7---9---10--12-
-0---2---3---5---7---8---10--12-



etc etc etc

fun fun fun

[Rich Cochrane]

Thanks for the replies chaps -- I spent most of the weekend in the rehearsal room with the band but will have some time to experiment with these this week.

Jake, I think you're right that the flatted fourths make these more like halfway between quartals and something else. I've spent so long looking at scales in terms of triads and sevenths, though, do like the idea of finding other ways of looking at them.

[JohnW400]

In response to Dogbite's request here's the next step in combining quartals to get new scales.

The idea is based on combining two chords to get a new scale based only on the notes of those chords

for example C and Db ( CEG Db F Ab) would give you C Db E F G Ab as a hexatonic scale.

Moving this to quartal chords gives us the first group:

In F:

F Bb E A D G to G C F Bb E A

Combine them into a scale and you get F G Bb C E F A Bb D E G A

The next step is keeping the "F" chord jump to the next quartal chord in the series ( A D G C F Bb)

This now gives you F A Bb D E G A C D F G Bb.

The next chord is F Bb E A D G to Bb E A D G C. These two are almost identical so I skip it

This is followed by F Bb E A D G to C F Bb E A D. This gets a bit tricky:


F C Bb F E Bb A E D A G D
1 3 1 3 2 3 2 5 3 5 3 10 (Fret)

Continue onto the last which is F Bb E A D G to E A D G C F

[bako]

John,

Having a little trouble following. What are the actual chords? Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something that I enjoy the sound of and pursue intermittently is the interaction between 2 harmonic areas (scales) or 2 chords.
Quartal chords seem to work well probably because they are a bit ambiguous to begin with.

I generally use 3 notes but I'll think bigger and write this out in 4 notes as a self motivator, since I enjoyed revisiting 6 note quartals via John's post.

Hybrid Chord Scales


F and Db Major (4 note difference)

F Bb E A-----Gb C F Bb

G C F Bb-----Ab Db Gb C

A D G C-----Bb Eb Ab Db

Bb E A D-----C F Bb Eb

C F Bb E-----Db Gb C F

D G C F-----Eb Ab Db Gb

E A D G-----F Bb Eb Ab

F Bb E A

F and D Major (3 note difference)

F Bb E A-----F# B E A

G C F Bb-----G C# F# B

A D G C-----A D G C#

Bb E A D-----B E A D

C F Bb E-----C# F# B E

D G C F-----D G C# F#

E A D G-----E A D G

F Bb E A

F and Eb Major (2 note difference)

F Bb E A-----G C F Bb

G C F Bb-----Ab D G C

A D G C-----Bb Eb Ab D

Bb E A D-----C F Bb Eb

C F Bb E-----D G C F

D G C F-----Eb Ab D G

E A D G-----F Bb Eb Ab

F Bb E A

F and E Major (5 note difference)

F Bb E A-----F# B E A

G C F Bb-----G# C# F# B

A D G C-----A D# G# C#

Bb E A D-----B E A D#

C F Bb E-----C# F# B E

D G C F-----D# G# C# F#

E A D G-----E A D# G#

F Bb E A

F and C Major (1 note difference)

F Bb E A-----F B E A

G C F Bb-----G C F B

A D G C-----A D G C

Bb E A D-----B E A D

C F Bb E-----C F B E

D G C F-----D G C F

E A D G-----E A D G

F Bb E A

F and B Major (5 note difference)

F Bb E A-----F# B E A#

G C F Bb-----G# C# F# B

A D G C-----A# D# G# C#

Bb E A D-----B E A# D#

C F Bb E-----C# F# B E

D G C F-----D# G# C# F#

E A D G-----E A# D# G#

F Bb E A

Copy and paste is a beautiful thing for us slow typists.

[JohnW400]

John,

Having a little trouble following. What are the actual chords? Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I should have been more clear. The quartal chords come from the modes. In F they would be

F Bb E A D G (Major I )
G C F Bb E A (dorian ii)
A D G C F Bb (phrygian iii)
Bb E A D G C (lydian IV)
C F Bb E A D (mixolydian V )
D G C F Bb E (aeolean vi)
E A D G C F (locrian vii )

So combing them you would do:

I-ii, ii-iii, iii-IV, IV-V etc

next
I-iii, ii-IV, iii-V, IV-vi, etc

I IV shares to many notes

I-V, ii-vi, iii-vii, IV-I etc
I-vi, ii-vii, iii-I etc

and

I-vii, ii-I, iii- ii, etc



The other thing I do with quartals is to Play a tertial arpeggio off of each note across the finger board.

F Bb E A D G would give me F, Bb, Edim, Ami, Dmi , Gmi

Then I would make them diatonic 7ths, then triad inversions, 7th inversons and ....off of every mode.

They just basically make good patterns


For a single line quartal exercise you could arpeggiate them and move them in 4 directions

(in C)

all 'up'
FBE
GCF
ADG
BEA

ect

all 'down'
EBF
FCG
GDA
AEB

up down
FBE
FCG
ADG
AEB

down up
EBF
GCF
GDA
BEA

You could even mess with middle top bottom or any of those permutations
BEF
CFG
DGA

LASTLY......

You could run each type through the chromatic scale in the order listed above (up, down, up-down , down up)

By 'type' I mean P4/P4, P4/TT, TT/P4

You could do this with all the intervals as well.

[bako]

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I play arps in quartals like this:

C F B / E A D / G C F / B E A------CMa7

D G C / F B E / A D G / C F B------Dm7

ect.

No doubt there are many ways to manipulate notes.

[JohnW400]

That's another way. Not what I meant but quite useful all the same

What I meant is that you build an arp off of each note in the quartal chord so that you're cycling through the fourths (I, IV, vii, iii, vi, ii, V, I)

[Franklin52]

I find this thread is definitely worth a sticky.

[dogbite]

halfway between four-tone quartals and pure fourths might be these four note subsets of jonny's "so what" chords found here:

Chord-Scale Theory and Linear Harmony for Guitar: Creative Tools for Improvisation and Composition in Contemporary MusicJonathan "JonnyPac" Pac Cantin - Guitarist - Composer - Artist - Educator - Home

such as

Dm7/11

-----1-----3-----5-----8-----10----13---
-----1-----3-----6-----8-----10----13---
-----0-----2-----5-----7-----10----12---
-----0-----3-----5-----7-----10----12---


yeah transpose these to the second through fifth strings too, but i really like the exercises implied here by skipping tones in pentatonics like this:

Am7/11

-8---5---------------------------------
---8---5-8---5-------------------------
-----------7---5-7--5------------------
-------------------7--5-7---5----------
--------------------------7---5-7--5---
----------------------------------8--5-


better still, use the above run not only for Dm9 (as an example of "playing off the V") but rhythmically broken up as triplets. do this with all five forms as to not get too comfortable with familiar box positions...

playing pentatonics off the V is a great way of spicing up a line without going crazy into altered scales, as they emphasize not only the ninth in minor chords:

Dm9
A minor pentatonic (as above)

but also the seventh in major chords:

Fmaj7
C major pentatonic

break 'em up interval-wise (also as above) as to not sound like a displaced tonal run, but check this out:

since the V of the V works too, hang out on the V pentatonic and then go up or down a V to spice up a static chord like this:

Gm7(9/11/13)
Dm pent, Am pent, Dm pent, Gm pent, Dm pent

changing the pentatonic sub every three, four or five notes. do it for majors too:

Gmaj7(6/9/#11)
D pent, A pent, D pent, G pent, D pent

with the major pentatonics.

[JohnW400]

Dominants

Ab Pentatonic / G7 gives you the +/-9, 11 and b13. Great for those 7b9 sus chords

Bb Pentatonic / G7 gives you the #9 and 11 (play a B natural now and again to help reference the G7)

Db is the tritone so you get +/-5 and the b9

A neat 'trick' here is to alternate the two scales againt the G7 (G A B D E, Db Eb F Ab Bb etc)

Eb pentatonic/ G7 gives you #5, the #9 and 11

F pentatonic/ G7 gives the 9th and 11th


Another thing you can do is to harmonize the scale on the firts 3 or 4 strings and then plae the root or tritones on the lower strings

ex: Dma pentatonic against C (lydian sound)

Dma on 3rd ~1st strings

ADF#
BEA
DF#B
EAD
F#BE

Now try to play these and a c chord on the 5th and 6th (and 4th0 to see what you get. Leave out the E since it already is in the Dmaj Pentatonic scale

654321
GC x ADF#
x CGBEA
CGxDF#B
CGxEAD
xGCF#BE

For the major sound I used the root and the 5th. For dominants, I would use the tritone

You could also do this with the Kumoi (which is like a 'tonic' minor pentatonic scale 1 2 b3 5 6)

[dogbite]

consider the following progression:

Gm7 / / / | / / / / |F#m7 / / / | / / / /

where you might use something like this, obvious perhaps but nonetheless valid:

Gm7

---------------------3-6-
-----------------3-6-----
-------------3-5---------
---------3-5-------------
-----3-5-----------------
-3-6---------------------

and

F#m7

---------------------2-5-
-----------------2-5-----
-------------2-4---------
---------2-4-------------
-----2-4-----------------
-2-5---------------------

now let us make some temporal adjustments:

Gm7 / / / | / / / / | / / / / |F#m7 / / /

where you get to play the first scale for more time but at the expense of the second. then,

Gm7 / / / | / / / / | / / / / | / / F#m7 /

and finally,

Gm7 / / / | / / / / | / / / / | / / / F#m7

now consider that the rhythm section (BIAB or whatever) has not in fact played the second chord through the entire exercise. what you have done is an example of what some might call "side-slipping" or "stepping outside the the box" or "key," as it were...

i call this an imaginary chord progression or "unreal chords," where the player reacts to chords that are not there. as such, it is not a form of pure chromaticism; rather, it is a "tonal" chromaticism, where tones are borrowed from unrelated tonalities or keys.

to minimize the danger of parallel devices, use adjacent forms rather than similar:

Gm7

---------------------3-6-
-----------------3-6-----
-------------3-5---------
---------3-5-------------
-----3-5-----------------
-3-6---------------------

F#m7

---------------------5-7-
-----------------5-7-----
-------------4-6---------
---------4-7-------------
-----4-7-----------------
-5-7---------------------

note that the stepping out tends to occur at the end of a phrase, where the drummer tends to do a fill and you're less likely to interfere with the vocalist

just as an exercise play in swing eighths, changing from Gm to F#m every three notes. combine with the skips as shown for the Am7/11 in post #50...

[JohnW400]

I find that excessive use of pentatonics, even to play out, a bit boring after a while. They tend to sound like what they are , pentatonics, regardless of whether you use them 'in' or 'out'

One idea is to to keep them from getting stale fast is to combine pentatonics with an arpeggio in order to keep them from sounding monotonous and to provide some sort of reference

For example using B minor pentatonic (D major) against a Cma7 you could start off of a one octave Cma7 arppeggio and finish it off with a B minor pentatnic run, or vice a versa





--------------------------7-10------------------
---------------------7-10-----------------------
-----------------7-9---------------------------
-----------9-10---------------------------------
-----7-10------------------------------------
---8-----------------------------------------

---8-7-----------------------------------------
-------8--------------------------------------
---------9------------------------------------
-----------10-9-7--------------------------------
-------------------9-7-------------------------
-----------------------10-7---------------------




Another way is to combine two pentatonics again referencing a note from the chord that is not part of the scale

Ab and Bb against a G7 using an occasional B natural to reference the G7









------------4-6----------3-6-7--------------------
-------4-6-----------3-6-------------------------
---3-5-----------3-5-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
or
-----6-3---------------------------------------
---------6-3-----------------------------------
-------------5-3-------------------------------
-----------------6-3---------------------------
----------------------6-3-2---------------------
---------------------------------------------