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I don't know if I said that right or not, but you know how for a major key the diatonic chords are Imaj, IIm, IIIm etc.......what would that be in a minor key???
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06-04-2012 12:23 AM
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The diatonic chords for minor keys are derived by stacking thirds, the same as for the major key chords. For minor keys that generally involves harmonizing the Natural Minor Scale, the Harmonic Minor Scale and the Melodic Minor Scale. Each scale will have a slightly different set of diatonic chords.
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Oh ok, that makes sense. Thanks.
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If we use the roman numerals relative to the major key, natural minor is:
i iidim bIII iv v bVI bVII
lowercase being minor or diminished and uppercase being major
but some texts would eliminate the flat symbols under the premise that if you establish you are in a minor key it's assumed that the third, sixth, and seventh degrees are flatted relative to the major key.
I still personally like seeing the flats because it just avoids confusion when I'm doing my own analysis. For example, iii in C is Em, bIII in C is Eb.
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^^^Ok, yea that's what I was looking for. Thanks man.
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I need to piggyback off this question because I'm currently playing around with this.
When getting the diatonic chords from a C minor scale, I'm a bit confused about the third chord, D#-F-A. From my understanding that's a major second and a diminished fifth, right? Unless I made a mistake somewhere, I have no idea what that chord would be called. I can't find any names on musictheory.net for that type of triad =/
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bIII chord in C minor would be Eb major: Eb G Bb (and D, the maj 7th)
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@ a small coyote:
Which C minor scale? Natural, Harmonic or Melodic?
Next, there is no D# in any C minor scale. So, yes, you made a mistake somewhere. The third note is Eb. In order to correctly harmonize the scale, you must have the notes right to begin with.
One rule of thumb for seven note major and minor scales is that each alphabet letter can only appear once. You can't have C, D, D#, F, G, G#, Bb...it has to be C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb
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Now, are you looking for triads or diatonic sevenths?
Triads in C Natural minor:
Cm, Ddim, Eb, Fm, Gm, Ab, Bb
Triads in Harmonic minor:
Cm, Ddim, Ebaug, Fm, G, Ab, Bdim
Triads in Melodic minor:
Cm, Dm, Ebaug, F, G, Adim, Bdim
Diatonic Sevenths in C Natural minor:
Cm7, Dm7b5, Ebmaj7, Fm7, Gm7, Abmaj7, Bb7
Diatonic sevenths in C Harmonic minor:
Cm(maj7), Dm7b5, Ebmaj7#5, Fm7, Abmaj7, Bdim7
Diatonic sevenths in C Melodic minor:
Cm(maj7), Dm7, Eb7#5, F7, G7, Am7b5, Bm7b5
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Ah hah! I see where I was wrong. Thank you guys for correcting me there I was so damn confused.
I was writing the scale out on the staff, and didn't know you couldn't have the sharps in there (cause that 'only using each letter once' rule that you mentioned), so instead of Eb I had D#. So when I stacked generic 3rds on top of everything to make diatonic triads, I ended up getting D#-F-A instead of the correct Eb - G - Bb.
Thank you much
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How do you know which chords are the m7's and which ones are the maj7's etc....in the minor key??? Is there theory behind that or do you just know it from learning it somewhere??? What I mean is how do you know the D is a m7b5 in the Natural minor as opposed to a dim7 or some other 7th chord??
Originally Posted by monk
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Hi GMO,after reading your posts and looking at your questions,i do believe that the next stage in your musical development should be some basic theory.In particular the study of intervals,how to build scales the first one being the Major scale,and chord construction.You are certainly asking the right kinds of questions which is good.In answer to your question about how do you know that a particular chord is a certain type?.Chords are constructed from intervals,a Major seven chord is made up of a root,a Major third,a perfect fifth and a Major seventh interval.The minor 7b5 you mentioned would be made from a Root,minor third,flat fifth and a minor seventh interval.This may not mean a lot to you at this time but after you understand some basic theory it will all start to make sense.Hope this helps .Good luck.
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Yes, there is theory for that. As gingerjazz said in his post, some basic theory will help you understand how these things are put together and why they are named they way they are. Originally Posted by Gmo
Intervals are a means of measuring the distance from one note to another. All the intervals have names. The intervallic distance from the root to each note in a chord will tell you what the chord is called.
For instance, a minor seventh will have Root, b3, 5, b7. A minor major seventh will have Root, b3, 5, 7. A minor seventh flat five will have Root, b3, b5, b7.
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^^^^Thanks for the answers guys, but I know the intervals for the various 7th chords. I just didn't know how you know that the 2 chord in a certain key is gonna be a m7 as opposed to a m7b5. Does this come down to intervals to???
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............................1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
C Natural minor is: C D Eb F G Ab Bb
Build the chords in thirds..The first chord is built thus.
1 b3 5... b7... 9 11 b13
C Eb G...Bb... D. F. Ab
So what did I do? The first three notes are the triad..Add the next note, Bb and that is the b7. I extended the chord as far out as all 7 notes allowed.
How do I know what the intervallic relationship is? Because all intervals after the root are named by their direct relationship from the root..
Do this with the next 6 chords and all will be clear to you with building the chords from natural minor. The same applies when building from harmonic or melodic minor, but you must take into account that harmonic minor has a raised 7th compared to natural minor that has a b7. So that note "B" must be taken into account when building chords from HM.
When building from melodic minor, not only does it have a raised or "natural" 7th, it has a raised or "natural" 6th. So the note "A", as well as "B" (natural minor has b6 b7 or Ab and Bb) have to be adjusted when building the chords..Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-06-2012 at 11:30 PM.
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Let me give this a stab from a wider perspective.
The problem with minor diatonic chords is that there is no sure way to know what the diatonic notes will be. This is unlike major where there is more certainty as to what the scale is.
Monk correctly gave you three possibilities based on three versions of the minor scale. Perfectly correct theory. But theory is just an element of music, often applies after the fact. It isn't music itself.
The quality of several of the chords can change depending on how they are functioning in any given harmony. For example, you will always want the V chord to be major when it is functioning as the dominant. This is so important, one can even phrase it as "The V chord is always major. If not, it isn't a V chord at all."
At least that one is clear cut.
Some of the others aren't so much. For example, the ii chord can be minor or diminished, right? It would really depend on where it's going (it's function) to know which might be better at the given moment. Either case could be considered "diatonic," unless your definition of diatonic for minor is only the natural minor scale. That may make sense in a text book, but it's not how the chords are used.
If this sounds confusing, it is. There are rules and guidelines, but essentially it's up to the ear of the composer/player.
The only two things I can give you as relative certainty is that the V should be major and the i should not be a min7 in most cases where they are functioning as such. The V we covered above. The i min 7 has the flatted seventh, which doesn't have a tonic quality to it. min-maj-7 or min 6 (or just the minor triad) are preferred.
The rest can vary. In short, I totally understand your question and the confusion, but part of the confusion rests in asking a slightly broken question.
Not sure if this helps or adds to the confusion...
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Yes. Originally Posted by Gmo
If you know your intervals as you say you do then you should know the quality of a chord when you build it.
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Ok, yea I read over it, it makes sense now. I skipped the part before about how the chords are derived from the scales and just learned the intervals for the chords themselves, that's my mistake.
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OK, so here's the test question:
In his post #8 above, Monk accidentally [but conveniently] omitted the 7th chord based on the 5th degree of C harmonic minor:
Diatonic sevenths in C Harmonic minor:
Cm(maj7), Dm7b5, Ebmaj7#5, Fm7, [???], Abmaj7, Bdim7
Based on your reading of this thread, what should that chord be?
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G7
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It's pretty simple actually. The basic chords are usually chosen from the harmonic minor in tonal/functional harmony (that is standards etc) which in the key of Cm look like this:
Triads:
Cm Do Eb+5 Fm G Ab Bo
Seventh chords
Cm(maj7) Dm7b5 Ebmaj7+5 Fm7 G7 Abmaj7 Bo7
That said when it comes to the actual extensions of the chords, we might see a major 6th or a minor 7th on the I minor chord, or a natural 9th sometimes on V, but most of the stuff is harmonic minor, especially in bebop.
So we get, for example
Dm7b5 G7(b9) Cm6 - the first two chords are harmonic minor, but the third has a natural/raised 6th, which suggests the melodic minor (or dorian) scale.
That covers 'where' the chords come from. In fact many jazz musicians use different scales on the chords, such as the altered scale (Ab melodic minor) on G7b9. But this is the basis.
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Where do I find a list of various diatonic chord charts? - Melodic minor, harmonic minor etc...
Originally Posted by monk
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Have you checked out the "lessons" page on the parent site of this forum? Originally Posted by jibzy
jazzguitar.be
Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
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What's the title of the thread?
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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not a thread, it's up at the top right of your screen, you're not looking high enough! Originally Posted by jibzy
or go here:
Free Jazz Guitar Lessons | Learn How To Play Jazz Guitar
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Ffs work it out yourself.
You’ll remember better.
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