-
Hey Guys,
I was reading an article in the "Jazz" column of this months "Guitar Techniques" Magazine and it was discussing "Lydian b7" and said it is the 4th Mode of the Melodic Minor Scale, I have a few ideas as to how this works but just to get it cleared up, does this mean its the 4th possition of the Melodic Minor Scale?
-
05-23-2007 07:08 PM
-
Hey Craigdog.
I think the word position is the tricky part. Position can mean a few things on guitar.
C melodic minor - C D Eb F G A B C
F Lydia b7 - ------------F G A B C Eb F
I wrote it out that way on purpose to show that it is just a melodic minor. If this is what the article was referring to it is the fourth mode of a C (ascending) melodic minor.
The 7th chord produced (starting with F) is a sharp 11 with a natural 9th and 13th.
I for one am not a fan of "modes." they are a part of theory, but to the improvisor I think they can produce a lot of baggage. In my mind it is just a C melodic minor scale. I always think of the parent key.
Good Luck,
Butch
-
Haha yeah man thats kinda the idea i had, thanks very much
on a slightly off note, do you mean to type CraigDag or do you mean to type CraigDog hahaha
Thanks again man.
-
Sorry about that man...I meant to type CraigDog, but I realize that I was mis-reading and should have typed CraigDag!
Have a good one!
-
I tend to discard the modes after I spent a lot of time learning them. I honestly don't think about modes when I improvise. I usually think in terms of chords because I can find the altered tones easier with that approach. But most often, I tend to rely on my ear when I am intimidated by fast moving changes.
-
Hahaha no worries man
In all honesty i dont think too much about the modes either, ive just kind of used them a visual map to get a general idea of where i can play for sure on the frettboard but im swatting up on all my theory so i can see what works for me.
-
Originally Posted by wizard3739
-
12b3456b7 D dorian scale, I can play a min chord over this scale, the dmin7, chord would be the correct chord, my question is can I play other min chords over this scale as long as they begin with Dmin, example, dmin7b5,dim7#5 please set me streight on this THANKS Aaron
-
Hey Aaron,
Please don't take this wrong - there is no "meaness here", but your question leads me to believe that you don't understand major scale harmony? D dorian is the second mode of a C major scale. The "other" D minor chords you asked about are not diatonic in the key of C (or D dorian). D m7-5 is diatonic in the key of Eb and a D dim.7 #5 isn't a chord in western harmony. Meaning, the D dim.7 chord is spelled D F Ab Cb (enharmonic to B). The #5 would be an A#, which, if it replaces the dim. 5th of Ab gives a chord of D F A# Cb. This chord could be used as a D13th+9, but isn't really recognized as such with the above spelling. It has no identifiable 3rd or 7th. In addition, further analysis could figure out ways to call that chord a lot of things, but you just don't see a dim.7th#5 chords. It would undoubtedly be called something else not related to a d minor.
However, to answer your question, an experienced player could play most anything against your d dorian and make it work...but that is sort of an advanced lesson to get into that.
OK, enough with the bullying. There is information in the lesson sections of this site that can get you started on major scale chord theory. It is essential to know this before you start contemplating modes. Understanding them is very simple, and applying them is a lifetimes work (which is a good thing!).
Hang in there, as there a alot of good folks on this site who will offer some great advice. But, to give you a start please see below:
Chords in C major (triads)
C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B dim.
Extended chords in C major:
C major 7th
D minor 7th
E minor 7th
F major 7th
G dominant 7th
A minor 7th
B min.7-5 (also called half-diminished).
Good Luck,
Butch
-
Hey Aaron,
Please don't take this wrong - there is no "meaness here", but your question leads me to believe that you don't understand major scale harmony? D dorian is the second mode of a C major scale. The "other" D minor chords you asked about are not diatonic in the key of C (or D dorian). D m7-5 is diatonic in the key of Eb and a D dim.7 #5 isn't a chord in western harmony. Meaning, the D dim.7 chord is spelled D F Ab Cb (enharmonic to B). The #5 would be an A#, which, if it replaces the dim. 5th of Ab gives a chord of D F A# Cb. This chord could be used as a D13th+9, but isn't really recognized as such with the above spelling. It has no identifiable 3rd or 7th. In addition, further analysis could figure out ways to call that chord a lot of things, but you just don't see a dim.7th#5 chords. It would undoubtedly be called something else not related to a d minor.
However, to answer your question, an experienced player could play most anything against your d dorian and make it work...but that is sort of an advanced lesson to get into that.
OK, enough with the bullying. There is information in the lesson sections of this site that can get you started on major scale chord theory. It is essential to know this before you start contemplating modes. Understanding them is very simple, and applying them is a lifetimes work (which is a good thing!).
Hang in there, as there a alot of good folks on this site who will offer some great advice. But, to give you a start please see below:
Chords in C major (triads)
C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B dim.
Extended chords in C major:
C major 7th
D minor 7th
E minor 7th
F major 7th
G dominant 7th
A minor 7th
B min.7-5 (also called half-diminished).
Good Luck,
Butch
-
How the heck did that happen??
-
Double posts for the win.
-
Originally Posted by Butch
-
Hi again, Butch I understand the chords you wrote out for me, in the key of (C) ,, lets try this aproach The pentatonic scale C,D,E,G.A, If you were to ask me what chords these letters belong to, my answer would be Cmaj7,Dmin7,Emin7, Gdom7, and Amin7, am I correct?. Now ? #2 is if I was going to play the Cmin pentatonic scale C,Eb,F,G,Bb, if this is correct,what chords will I play over these letters, your responds would be helpful,in your next return forum message. Aaron
-
I find modes to be like any other part of musical knowledge or guitar technique, just another set of tools for the tool box. I certainly understand why others don't really mess with them, but for me, I am really into this thing, and want as much knowledge at my fingertips as I can get.
Whether diatonic modes or modal interchange, I prefer pursue the whole thing. Getting to the point to where you hear them as Mr. B suggests rather than thinking about them is of course the goal.
If I am not mistaken, playing a dominant arpeggio a tritone away over the V gives you a Lydian Dominat sound without having to think melodic minor. So in C, when you run across a G dominant chord, play a Db7 arpeggio to get that tonality.
-
Originally Posted by Aaron J. Halpern
Michael Morangelli
http://www.thereelscore.com
Major:
I Ii Iii IV V Vi Vii
Maj7 Min7 Min7 Maj7 Dom7 Min7 half dim7
minor:
I Ii III iv V Vi Vii
minMaj7 Half dim7 Major7 or Aug7 min7 Dom7 Half dim7 dim7
It is not straight forward from melodic minor scale, but I think the rule is something like this:
(thinking in C melodic minor)
Ab is used unless it is the root of the chord. In this case we have A C Eb G (half dim)
The other notes belong to melodic minor scale...
-
Originally Posted by CraigDag
Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar
-
Hey Aaron,
Here are the chords that are associated with the Melodic Minor scale/modes.
1 CmMaj7
2 D7susb9
3 EbMaj7#5
4 F7#11
5 G7b13
6 Am7b5(nat9)
7 B7alt(b9,#9,b5,#5)
Now you may ask, how often do I see some of these chords, and you're right. Outside of a few Wayne Shorter tunes the 7susb9 chord is hardly used in jazz. But what's cool about Melodic Minor is the 7th chord colors it produces.
if you have an F blues, on the F7 chord you could play the mixolydian mode to give it a normal type color. Or you could stretch out and play C melodic minor to give it a #11 flavor, like Sonny Rollins does on the head to Blue Seven. Or you could play Bb Melodic Minor for a b13 color, or Gb Melodic Minor for an altered sound.
The other cool thing about Melodic minor is when you look at it as triads.
Triads:
C min
Dmin
Ebaug
F
G
A dim
B dim
So you get a pair of min triads, C D, one aug Eb, a pair of maj triads, F and G, and a pair of dim triads A and B. This leads to a bunch of cool motive based lines that you can play because if you play a triad idea on one of the pairs you can repeat the same thing on the second triad of the pair.
MW
-
A little follow up to one of the above questions regarding Dm7 and what mode to play on that scale.
Today the Dorian, second mode of major, is the preferred scale for a m7 chord in jazz, at least in a 2-5-1 chord progression. But this was not always the case. Jazzers only started using this scale as the "only" option on a iim7 chord shortly after Kind of Blue came out and Miles introduces everyone to the concept of "modal" playing.
Before 1960 or so, when Bop and Hard Bop was the style, most improvisers chose to use the Melodic Minor scale over a iim7 chord when they improvised with scales. If they improvised with arpeggios they stuck to the m7 sound, not the mMaj7 sound that the melodic minor scale implies.
If you look at any solo by Charlie Parker what stands out, to me at least, is that he uses C#'s on Dm7 chords all the time! This was a staple of the Bop sound, the major 7th interval on a minor 7th chord.
So in a 2-5-1 chord progression in C major the boppers would use scales like this:
Dm7=D Melodic Minor, produces a Dmmaj7 sound.
G7= D Melodic Minor, produces a G7#11 sound, often with an added major 7th note, F#, to produce the "bebop" scale.
Cmaj7 = G Major, produces a Cmaj7#11 sound.
This type of blowing led to the "avoid tone" concept, which is where books and teachers say that one can use the G mixolydian scale over G7 but "avoid" sitting on or emphasizing the C natural note as it clashes with the 3rd, B of the chord.
The same is said for Cmaj7, one can use the C major scale, but avoid sitting on or emphasizing the F note as it clashes with the E in the voicing.
So the beboppers avoided all of this technical stuff but just using modes that contained the #11 sound over 7th and maj7th chords. This let them play any note in the scale with no "avoid" tones, which allowed them to sit on or emphasize any note in the scale that their ears told them to, without having to think about it.
I've attached a few examples because a lot of times it's easier to understand this stuff by playing through it rather than reading about it.
The same modes can be applied to comping as well, it wouldn't sound out of place in a Bop or Hard Bop tune to comp:
Dmmaj7/G7#11/Cmaj7#11/A7b9
in place of:
Dm7/G7/Cmaj7/Am7
Just a little background on the use of melodic minor in jazz, it's pretty straight forward in this context, but once Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock and others got really into this scale, things get really out there!
MW
-
Originally Posted by m78w
If this works for one chord, it can work for all. This opens up other possibilities beside just the diatonic subs we have available. At least, this is something I have been taught this year and am trying to incorporate in my playing.
-
Hey Derek,
I agree, you can definately borrow these chords into any tune or progression. The second mode of melodic minor is one of these "ambiguous" chords. Because it is often used as a sus chord it could be 7susb9, or m11b9 depending on the context.
The great thing about melodic minor is that if you have C7 you can use Db melodic minor, C7alt, G melodic minor, C7#11, F melodic minor, C7b13, or Bb melodic minor, C7susb9. That means that if you take one cool lick you have on a melodic minor scale you can just move it around to use the same idea but produce completely different sounds!
Check out the example attached, if you can play each line with a C7 on band in the box in the background you'll hear what I mean.
A great exercise would be to take this chord, 7susb9, and use it over a blues on every chord to see what it sounds like. I don't think we'd want to use it on every chord on the bandstand, but it would definately turn some heads if it was played for the last four bars of an F Blues as C7susb9 ala McCoy!
MW
-
Another great post Matt... This simple example has really organized my thinking about the minor melodic scale vs altered dominates. I'm having great fun with it... even getting some Joe Pass sounds ...WooHoo
-
Hey Jazzaluk,
Glad you're getting into the melodic minor dominant color stuff. I'll tell you it was a joyous day in my practice room when I figured this stuff out and finally "got it"! After years of learning tons of scales and modes for the melodic minor scale all over the neck it just dawned on me. "If I just move this here, and then the same thing over there, I'll sound good!"
MW
-
MW... I have been using the Mmel scale quite alot but not as freely as I wanted. I seemed to have developed a very convoluted way of understanding which one to use when, which made improvising more lick-based. I guess its one of the pitfalls of being self-taught. So again...thanks for the tip.
Used Henriksen or Mambo amp
Today, 09:08 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos