Guitar Modes - Separate fingerings or start on a particular root?

[jster]

Wow. I love everything with DeFrancesco. And what awesome tone. But Johnny is possessed on that one. Wow.

[fumblefingers]

It's actually hard to tell from Pass's instructional videos how much intellectualizing he did which is why I was asking. He always seems to kind of downplay his knowledge which may be deceptive to those of us not at his level.

I don't think it is 'dumb' to discuss application of technique in actually making music. I think it's a legitimate question for aspiring jazzers to inquire about scale mastery as it pertains to artistic goals and personal style.

So you are stating that Wes and Pass studied, mastered and employed all of the scale fingerings that you are advocating? I really don't know which is why I am asking.

Like I said, I personally enjoy this type of study, I was just wondering if it is applicable for everyone.

ok, i wasn't referring to "fans" as much as serious students of the guitar

if you know CAGED, which is pretty incomplete, you already know a good number of one and two octave mode fingerings. "playing modes" is only a matter of starting and ending in a certain place. so if you know five fingering patterns like CAGED just try it! it will challenge you for a few days and then you'll have it.

i'm not much of a player, but even i can play all of those fingerings in a fraction of the time it took to write these posts!

regarding Pass, I read an interview with him years ago where he was recounting his history. he was performing as a pro at 14 yrs. he described a pop quiz challenge from an adult (his father perhaps?) who asked him to play ALL the scales on the spot. he "Passed" the test. (my bad).

anyway, when you see masters doing little seminars, master classes, short books or videos, they frequently spend limited amounts of time on beginning and intermediate fundamentals like basic technique (scale, chord, arepeggio studies etc). is that stuff boring? yes, but that's not the point. masters are typically bringing their unique knowledge/skill/practices to the discussion. that's what makes the price of admission worth it. fundamentals are the assumed foundation for being an artist. put another way, how are you going to get to the penthouse if there is no foundation, structure, or elevator to get you there? hard work will get that stuff out of the way, then yiou just need to keep it up. the goal always is making music - but - making great music is not easy.

[Jonzo]

I like the approach in "The Advancing Guitarist". Here is the approximate sequence.

Play all the modes of C on one string at a time against an appropriate modal vamp.

Play all of the modes of every key on one string at time.

Repeat for open position.

Repeat for string pairs.

Repeat using positions.

Repeat using entire fingerboard.

The idea is to start simply: 1 string and the modes of C (no sharps or flats). Then move around the circle of 5ths, adding one sharp at a time.

Playing against the vamps will reinforce what spots on the fingerboard sound good, but also be conscious of the scale tones and chord tones of the mode. Spend some time trying to play specific chord tones. This will reinforce where the scale degrees on the fingerboard. Doing both will get both halves of your brain involved (Right: What sounds good? Left: What is happening harmonically?)

Rather than trying to perfect an exercise before moving on, try to move quickly through the exercises, but revisit old material regularly. These exercises are open ended, so you will never really master them. You might eventually play a perfect line, but you won't ever play "the" perfect line.

Try scat singing over the modes. This is the type of fluency you are are aiming for on your guitar.

There are some simple vamps for each mode here: Modal Chord Progressions. You could add a major 7 to the C chords.

I hope I didn't garble the method too much. I would recommend buying the book.

[Rich Cochrane]

if you know CAGED, which is pretty incomplete, you already know a good number of one and two octave mode fingerings.

It may be worth making a distinction between "fingering knowledge" and "note knowledge" here.

• "Note knowledge" would be knowing where the notes are of a scale with a given root note, and what chord tones they are. Can you play the notes of the F# major scale starting at the 6th fret and name the chord tones as you go (something equivalent to "major third, natural eleventh, natural fifth" etc)? Then you know how to find the notes of the F# major scale.
• "Fingering knowledge" would then be about ways to play those notes efficiently, with good articulation, or whatever. I can know the F# major scale all over the neck but never have tried a three-note-per-string approach, or four-notes-per-string, or strict position-based playing, etc. These would be "fingerings".

I say this because CAGED is complete from a "note knowledge" perspective but is, indeed, the tip of the iceberg in terms of "fingering knowledge". So I think some debates about this topic, perhaps including this one, might be clarified a bit by deciding whether we're asking:

• Is X a good way to gain complete "note knowledge" of a scale/arp/whatever, if I want that?
• Assuming I already have that note knowledge, which fingerings would be useful for me to work with?

These are separate from questions such as "Did the great players know their scales or play by ear / from licks / using chord tones only etc?", "Is it worth learning scale X if I want to play musical style Y?" and so on.

"playing modes" is only a matter of starting and ending in a certain place. so if you know five fingering patterns like CAGED just try it! it will challenge you for a few days and then you'll have it.

IMNSHO any set of CAGED diagrams should give you chord tones of the triad or seventh at the root and relate the scale tones to those. To learn a mode of a scale, you can't keep the same CAGED diagrams because the chord tones will be in the wrong places. You need new ones. But they will be so similar to the original ones they won't take long to learn.

Otherwise the student gets the false facility with playing "modes" that we see all the time in rock. "Oh, I'll play Ab Phrygian here, that's, hmmm, let's see, down a major third, right? So I'll use my familiar E major scale shapes!".

This is bad not only because the thought process is too involved but also because the student is playing in E major over an Ab minor harmony. They need to know how to relate the notes, which happen to be the same as the ones in E major, to this new Ab minor context. Especially, I would suggest, if the music is jazz.

[Jonzo]

That is a good distinction between "note knowledge" and "finger knowledge". It should be noted that the ultimate goal is synthesis of both.

I think a common practice error for beginning improvisors is running up and down scales too much. People make this mistake because it is something that can be mastered, and so is reinforcing. However, the scale is a means, not an end. The solution is to use the scale in many ways. This can be structured--arpeggios, sequences and such--or unstructured--playing over vamps, chord changes, tunes.

You will learn from both. Often the one we ignore is the one that would benefit us the most. I am analytical, and like to to break down problems into small sub-tasks, so structured practice appeals to me. Lately, however, I find I am benefiting greatly from practicing more loosely (playing with the notes), but still within a defined structure that addresses a given "problem".

In practical terms, one may approach practicing a mode this way:
What mode do I need to practice?
What limits should I impose on note choices? (string group, position, etc.)
What limits should I impose on technique? (use staccato, use hammer ons, etc.)

Now, put on a vamp. Warm up with a few scales, arpeggios or sequences within the limits you have defined. Next, create within the boundaries you have defined. You will benefit the most if you change the variables each day.

This would be one balanced approach.

[fumblefingers]

It may be worth making a distinction between "fingering knowledge" and "note knowledge" here.

• "Note knowledge" would be knowing where the notes are of a scale with a given root note, and what chord tones they are. Can you play the notes of the F# major scale starting at the 6th fret and name the chord tones as you go (something equivalent to "major third, natural eleventh, natural fifth" etc)? Then you know how to find the notes of the F# major scale.
• "Fingering knowledge" would then be about ways to play those notes efficiently, with good articulation, or whatever. I can know the F# major scale all over the neck but never have tried a three-note-per-string approach, or four-notes-per-string, or strict position-based playing, etc. These would be "fingerings".

I say this because CAGED is complete from a "note knowledge" perspective but is, indeed, the tip of the iceberg in terms of "fingering knowledge". So I think some debates about this topic, perhaps including this one, might be clarified a bit by deciding whether we're asking:

• Is X a good way to gain complete "note knowledge" of a scale/arp/whatever, if I want that?
• Assuming I already have that note knowledge, which fingerings would be useful for me to work with?

These are separate from questions such as "Did the great players know their scales or play by ear / from licks / using chord tones only etc?", "Is it worth learning scale X if I want to play musical style Y?" and so on.



IMNSHO any set of CAGED diagrams should give you chord tones of the triad or seventh at the root and relate the scale tones to those. To learn a mode of a scale, you can't keep the same CAGED diagrams because the chord tones will be in the wrong places. You need new ones. But they will be so similar to the original ones they won't take long to learn.

Otherwise the student gets the false facility with playing "modes" that we see all the time in rock. "Oh, I'll play Ab Phrygian here, that's, hmmm, let's see, down a major third, right? So I'll use my familiar E major scale shapes!".

This is bad not only because the thought process is too involved but also because the student is playing in E major over an Ab minor harmony. They need to know how to relate the notes, which happen to be the same as the ones in E major, to this new Ab minor context. Especially, I would suggest, if the music is jazz.

1. i mean "CAGED" only as a reference to the common five fingerings which are published all over creation.

2. they are scale fingerings, not chords. what you do with them in terms of skips, double stops, "patterns"/"cells", and intervals is another topic.

3. the number of one and two octave fingerings for each of the modes are available through these scale fingerings, just as i've said.

[meritonemusic]

What is the conventional wisdom on playing modes with respect to fingering? I have been just using my originally Major Scale fingerings and starting on the root of whichever mode I am playing. I believe I have read recommendations otherwise saying it is more efficient to have a fingering for ever mode so you can have your strong fingers better aligned.

By the way, I use the Musician's Institute standard fingerings for Major and Minor scale. I have noticed Jody Fisher, Jimmy Bruno and others have their own system. I may tweak mine one day but for now, it works for me.

Hey -

I thought you might find these useful...

Backing tracks for all 7 modes from C Major scale

Backing tracks for all 7 modes starting from the note C

Happy experimenting

[AlsoRan]

Hey -

I thought you might find these useful...

Backing tracks for all 7 modes from C Major scale

Happy experimenting

I just might be able to use that Dorian track right now. Thanks!

I am kind of concentrating on more of a swing type groove, but this will come in handy to get that Dorian sound down.