When to employ the dominant 7 sharp 11

[JonR]

Is my post (#6) totally jargon that only pingu can dig?

Yes, don't you hate it when you spell out every essential detail of a concept, and everyone else still has to chime in with their $0.02 like you're not there? Hello?

I particularly hate it when it descends into "yeah man, you can use any note over any chord."

Well of course you damn well can! But not all notes are equal. Not all chords are interchangeable - not even all dom7s. There are different kinds with different functions.
We (you) are talking common practices here. What jazz musicians by and large actually do, most of the time. Theory, IOW. Conventions that have buit up over time. How to sound like a jazz musician and not like a random noodler. It's NOT saying this is what everyone must do henceforth, or all anyone can do.

[jonasfixe]

Here are the main functional uses (examples mostly in C or Am):

"backdoor dominant" Bb7#11 goes to C, etc. Try Cmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 Bb7#11 Cmaj7. It subs for the minor plagal Fm6. Like Cmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 Fm6 Cmaj7. In some RC charts it is in there like that.

It resolves to Am too. Bb7#11 goes to Am. This gets dubbed a tritone sub. In F MM E7ALT is good for V7 of Am, and Bb7#11 has the same notes and inverted 3 and b7. You can use the parallel major to get Bb7#11 to Amaj7, or E7ALT to Amaj7. You can put m7b5's in front of them like Bm7b5 Bb7#11 Am or Dm7b5 Db7#11 Cmaj7.

It can be used as a dominant IV or bVI chord coloring. F7#11 and Cmaj7 sound good together. Same with F7#11 and Am. Try them out back and forth. Also mixed with the parallel major/minor you get F7#11 to Amaj7, and Ab7#11 to Cmaj7. Listen to Pink Panther and Bernie's Tune for overt i to bIV7#11 examples. Also, the resolve down a half-step trick works great in turnarounds like this with IV7#11 (really V7/iii tritone sub): F7#11 Em7 A7b9 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7. Or you can borrow more... F7#11 Em7 Eb7#11 Dm7 Db7#11 Cmaj7. Big chromatic bass movement.

And it is a dominant, so it fits good old V7 chords. Miles's Tune Up uses them in the descending ii V7 I's. Em11 A7#11 Dmaj7 % Dm7 G7#11 Cmaj7 %. The #11 and P5 are both in the melody strongly (not just "lower chromatic neighbor tones").

And yes, they can just be that cool color chord randomly dropped into a tune too! In A Train it's kind of a V/V7 coloring (and a very catchy one to boot!). Overall, they are "Lydian dominant" chords from Melodic "Jazz" Minor. No "avoid notes" 7#11 is a shorthand. The natural 9th and 13th are commonly played in the mix. Other MM chords can sub for them to get other interesting mixes. You can sub Bb7#11 and E7ALT, like above, but you can also sub Abmaj#5 or other same-subset modal chords. Try them out!

Hope that helps.

I have been through Mark Levine Jazz Theory Book and this seems in accordance with what I have learned there

Resuming, 7#11 chords may resolve half step down, whole step up or perfect 4th down, while 7 alt chords half step up, 5th down or major 3rd down (the tritone sub). I would just add that when you have minor ninth or minor sisth in the melody you should not use the 7#11 chord, instead use the alt chord or the b9.

[princeplanet]

Here are the main functional uses (examples mostly in C or Am):

"backdoor dominant" Bb7#11 goes to C, etc. Try Cmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 Bb7#11 Cmaj7. It subs for the minor plagal Fm6. Like Cmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 Fm6 Cmaj7. In some RC charts it is in there like that.

It resolves to Am too. Bb7#11 goes to Am. This gets dubbed a tritone sub. In F MM E7ALT is good for V7 of Am, and Bb7#11 has the same notes and inverted 3 and b7. You can use the parallel major to get Bb7#11 to Amaj7, or E7ALT to Amaj7. You can put m7b5's in front of them like Bm7b5 Bb7#11 Am or Dm7b5 Db7#11 Cmaj7.

It can be used as a dominant IV or bVI chord coloring. F7#11 and Cmaj7 sound good together. Same with F7#11 and Am. Try them out back and forth. Also mixed with the parallel major/minor you get F7#11 to Amaj7, and Ab7#11 to Cmaj7. Listen to Pink Panther and Bernie's Tune for overt i to bIV7#11 examples. Also, the resolve down a half-step trick works great in turnarounds like this with IV7#11 (really V7/iii tritone sub): F7#11 Em7 A7b9 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7. Or you can borrow more... F7#11 Em7 Eb7#11 Dm7 Db7#11 Cmaj7. Big chromatic bass movement.

And it is a dominant, so it fits good old V7 chords. Miles's Tune Up uses them in the descending ii V7 I's. Em11 A7#11 Dmaj7 % Dm7 G7#11 Cmaj7 %. The #11 and P5 are both in the melody strongly (not just "lower chromatic neighbor tones").

And yes, they can just be that cool color chord randomly dropped into a tune too! In A Train it's kind of a V/V7 coloring (and a very catchy one to boot!). Overall, they are "Lydian dominant" chords from Melodic "Jazz" Minor. No "avoid notes" 7#11 is a shorthand. The natural 9th and 13th are commonly played in the mix. Other MM chords can sub for them to get other interesting mixes. You can sub Bb7#11 and E7ALT, like above, but you can also sub Abmaj#5 or other same-subset modal chords. Try them out!

Hope that helps.

Wow, I'm impressed with how well you know this chord's usage! I like the F7#11 resolving to Cmaj7. In fact, it feels like a sub for G7 given it's f and b tritone. Kinda like a G9#5. Is this a common sub?

EDIT: Hey I just realized that if G7b5 played a tone lower yields G9#5, then thats a cool sub switch, not just switching chord , but the arps, and of course, the MM modes that go with them, so DMM for G7b5 and CMM for G9#5. Maybe a little sidestepping in between!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Is my post (#6) totally jargon that only pingu can dig?

I can dig it, but it is pretty dense, as in ideas per cubic inch! What would have been nice is an example progression fingering for each point. That would have been awesome.

[brwnhornet59]

I like the F7#11 resolving to Cmaj7. In fact, it feels like a sub for G7 given it's f and b tritone. Kinda like a G9#5. Is this a common sub?

Yes indeed. Very common using the IV#11 as a sub for the V, the same holds true with MM. The IV7#11 is a great sub for the Vb13, as is the VII7 alt. Like Jonny said, the bIIIM7+ works great as a sub as well. MM is so interchangeable and easy to imply. Having two different sets of tritones to work with is fun.

If you cycle through Vb13 in major 3rds you can continue using those relationships symmetrically. No need to think any note works with any chord. Stick with the pool of notes you are working with and use them intelligently. It is not rocket science.

[princeplanet]

If you cycle through Vb13 in major 3rds you can continue using those relationships symmetrically. No need to think any note works with any chord. Stick with the pool of notes you are working with and use them intelligently. It is not rocket science.

When you say Vb13, are you talking about the MM mode, or the chord./arps? Care to expand on this a little?

[brwnhornet59]

Yes, I am referring to the 5th mode of MM, Dom b13. Since the b13 is the harmonic equivalent to #5, aug, you may treat the chord and all of the ideas surrounding that chord that has been discussed prior, in a symmetrical way, in this case move in major 3rds.

You may use chords, arps, chord tones, scale fragments and sequences etc..per the described methods and have good results. You can cycle in ii V's, tritones etc.. Just depends how you treat it and what is going on. If you are using the IV7#11 or the bIII#5 as subs for the V7b13, you may treat them the same way. Notice the tritone subs appears midway through moving in 3rds. It is symmetrical as well either a b5 above or a b5 below.

I like playing symmetrical snippets against a static V chord as well. Great way to play out. Explore the sounds, see what you dig. Look for these kind of usages in tunes that you know, like the blues, and give it a shot. Let your common sense and your ear tell you what is right in a given situation. Sometimes just because things work well in theory, does not mean it sounds good. Much has to do with what is going on harmonically, your approach, rhythmic inflection and playing with conviction into your next target note. It is just another tool of many to use.

[JonR]

EDIT: Hey I just realized that if G7b5 played a tone lower yields G9#5, then thats a cool sub switch, not just switching chord , but the arps, and of course, the MM modes that go with them, so DMM for G7b5 and CMM for G9#5. Maybe a little sidestepping in between!

Well, G7b5 and G9#5 both suggest wholetone scale, not melodic minor. G9#5 is not a lydian dominant.

I think we need to be careful with enharmonics here so we know what we're discussing.

G7#11 is a different chord from G7b5. You can play G7#11 without its 5th, but the #11 doesn't thereby become a b5. A P5 would still be in the scale. The name "G7b5" suggests there is no P5, and therefore implies either the altered or wholetone scales.

The HW diminished is maybe a grey area, because having 8 notes means some enharmonic flexibility is inherent; you can make a case for both G7#11 and G7b5 as HW dim chords, even though they are unorthodox indicators for HW dim.

G7b5, G9#5, and F7#11 will all resolve to C, but they're not exactly subs for each other.
"G9#5" suggests wholetone, but if we name it G9b13, that makes it 5th mode C melodic minor (mixolydian b6).
C melodic minor also fits F7#11, so you can indeed see those two chords as possibly standing for each other.

CMM doesn't fit either G7b5 or G7#11 - which is D melodic minor, as you say. So the resolution is of a different nature.
In fact, it would be rare to use G7#11 to resolve to C, while G7b5 (or G9#5) might be common. G7b5 is compatible with either the altered scale (Ab melodic minor) or G wholetone - both of which resolve nicely to C major. G9#5, as mentioned, is a wholetone chord, but not a G7alt variant.

IOW, if we're talking about V-I cadences in C major, all the following might be used in the dominant function:

G7, G9, G13, or sus4 variants = G mixolydian, ie C major scale
G7alt, G7#9*, G7b5b9, G7#5#9, G7b5#9, G7#5b9, G7b13 = G altered = Ab melodic minor
Db7#11, Db9#11, Db13#11 = Db lydian dominant = Ab melodic minor. (IOW these chords are identical to G7alt chords, only the root is different.)
G7b9*, G13b9, G13#9 = G HW dim
G7#5**, G7b5**, G9b5, G9#5 = G wholetone. Various other harmonisations from this scale might also resolve to C - such as any 9#5 or 9b5 chord on the roots A, B, Db, Eb or F. Some would work better than others.
G7#11, G9#11, G13#11 = D melodic minor. Rare
G9b13 = G mixolydian b6 = C melodic minor. Rare. (Unless we look at it from an F7#11 perspective, as mentioned. This is a new one on me, and I like the way it suggests something more like a V7-I than a plagal IV-I. The big difference, of course, is the presence of C in F7#11 and its absence from G9b13. IMO that's what dictates the IV-V difference.)

As with wholetone, various harmonizations from Ab melodic minor or G HW dim could work to resolve to C (or Cm of course). I don't know of any theoretical reason why D melodic minor is rare. IOW, it's a "common practice" issue rather than an abstract theoretical one.

*G7b9 and G7#9 could both indicate either altered or HW dim but, in my experience, the former typically suggests HW dim and the latter altered. Again this is common practice shorthand ather than theoretical precision. The fact the symbols leave the choice open is of course useful and important.
** Likewise G7b5 and G7#5 leave the choice open between altered and wholetone. But IMO it's important not to see "b5" as the same as "#11"; in contrast, "#5" and "b13" can sometimes be interchangeable. The kind of 9th involved will usually settle it.

[brwnhornet59]

Great break down Jon, very concise and well stated.

I would point out that G7b9 is also indicative of C HM, opening up its usage as well. ii7b5 V7b9 iM7. Phrygian Dom is a great sound against a rootless V7b9 or V7b9b13.

Knowing the difference harmonically between a #11 and a b5 or a #5 vs a b13 is everything when deciding which note pool you are drawing from and understanding how to imply it.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

> G7#11 is a different chord from G7b5

Yup, but in some (often older) charts G7b5 is written when the "real" intention is G7#11. It's a case of "do what I meant, not what I said".

[brwnhornet59]

> G7#11 is a different chord from G7b5

Yup, but in some (often older) charts G7b5 is written when the "real" intention is G7#11. It's a case of "do what I meant, not what I said".

That is why we are the ultimate judge of what and how we approach and interpret the music. In most tunes it becomes obvious very quickly what is being implied. Just follow the harmony, it doesn't lie.

[JonnyPac]

Good posts! You're on it like usual, JonR. Glad this thread clarified many common questions.

[JonR]

> G7#11 is a different chord from G7b5

Yup, but in some (often older) charts G7b5 is written when the "real" intention is G7#11. It's a case of "do what I meant, not what I said".

Right. "Refer to context" being the usual best advice, of course.

[JonR]

Great break down Jon, very concise and well stated.

I would point out that G7b9 is also indicative of C HM opening up its usage as well. ii7b5 V7b9 iM7. Phrygian Dom is a great sound against a rootless V7b9 or V7b9b13.

Don't try telling that to Mark Levine...
He'll just tut, narrow his eyes and mutter something about "avoid notes"...
(Well, that's what I like to imagine.)

[JonnyPac]

Lol ...killin' me, there!

[brwnhornet59]

Don't try telling that to Mark Levine...
He'll just tut, narrow his eyes and mutter something about "avoid notes"...
(Well, that's what I like to imagine.)

LMAO

[princeplanet]

Well, G7b5 and G9#5 both suggest wholetone scale, not melodic minor. G9#5 is not a lydian dominant.

I think we need to be careful with enharmonics here so we know what we're discussing.

G7#11 is a different chord from G7b5. You can play G7#11 without its 5th, but the #11 doesn't thereby become a b5. A P5 would still be in the scale. The name "G7b5" suggests there is no P5, and therefore implies either the altered or wholetone scales.

The HW diminished is maybe a grey area, because having 8 notes means some enharmonic flexibility is inherent; you can make a case for both G7#11 and G7b5 as HW dim chords, even though they are unorthodox indicators for HW dim.

G7b5, G9#5, and F7#11 will all resolve to C, but they're not exactly subs for each other.
"G9#5" suggests wholetone, but if we name it G9b13, that makes it 5th mode C melodic minor (mixolydian b6).
C melodic minor also fits F7#11, so you can indeed see those two chords as possibly standing for each other.

CMM doesn't fit either G7b5 or G7#11 - which is D melodic minor, as you say. So the resolution is of a different nature.
In fact, it would be rare to use G7#11 to resolve to C, while G7b5 (or G9#5) might be common. G7b5 is compatible with either the altered scale (Ab melodic minor) or G wholetone - both of which resolve nicely to C major. G9#5, as mentioned, is a wholetone chord, but not a G7alt variant.

IOW, if we're talking about V-I cadences in C major, all the following might be used in the dominant function:

G7, G9, G13, or sus4 variants = G mixolydian, ie C major scale
G7alt, G7#9*, G7b5b9, G7#5#9, G7b5#9, G7#5b9, G7b13 = G altered = Ab melodic minor
Db7#11, Db9#11, Db13#11 = Db lydian dominant = Ab melodic minor. (IOW these chords are identical to G7alt chords, only the root is different.)
G7b9*, G13b9, G13#9 = G HW dim
G7#5**, G7b5**, G9b5, G9#5 = G wholetone. Various other harmonisations from this scale might also resolve to C - such as any 9#5 or 9b5 chord on the roots A, B, Db, Eb or F. Some would work better than others.
G7#11, G9#11, G13#11 = D melodic minor. Rare
G9b13 = G mixolydian b6 = C melodic minor. Rare. (Unless we look at it from an F7#11 perspective, as mentioned. This is a new one on me, and I like the way it suggests something more like a V7-I than a plagal IV-I. The big difference, of course, is the presence of C in F7#11 and its absence from G9b13. IMO that's what dictates the IV-V difference.)

As with wholetone, various harmonizations from Ab melodic minor or G HW dim could work to resolve to C (or Cm of course). I don't know of any theoretical reason why D melodic minor is rare. IOW, it's a "common practice" issue rather than an abstract theoretical one.

*G7b9 and G7#9 could both indicate either altered or HW dim but, in my experience, the former typically suggests HW dim and the latter altered. Again this is common practice shorthand ather than theoretical precision. The fact the symbols leave the choice open is of course useful and important.
** Likewise G7b5 and G7#5 leave the choice open between altered and wholetone. But IMO it's important not to see "b5" as the same as "#11"; in contrast, "#5" and "b13" can sometimes be interchangeable. The kind of 9th involved will usually settle it.

Strewth! You guys are walking Jazz Encyclopaedias! OK, will investigate this further when I'm on the instrument, but are you saying that against a plain old G7 in the context of, say, C major, that I shouldn't freely switch between CMM and DMM?

[JonnyPac]

Strewth! You guys are walking Jazz Encyclopaedias! OK, will investigate this further when I'm on the instrument, but are you saying that against a plain old G7 in the context of, say, C major, that I shouldn't freely switch between CMM and DMM?

Are calling us geeks? LOL

Those are both possible harmonizations of the V7 chord G7. I wouldn't use both "freely" (especially in the same bar). I would choose based on context (the melody and surrounding chords, etc). You might choose one in one chorus and the other the next time around to freshen it up.

The other obvious V7 choices for G7 are: G Mixolydian, G HW dim scale, C HM (G Phrygian Dominant), Ab MM (D7#11 as discussed above in great detail, which is also the same as G7 Super Locrain ALT). Using C MM (G9b13 is fairly uncommon as well as C Harmonic Major (G13b9), though it has been done.

[brwnhornet59]

Indeed!!!

Harmonic Major is actually a really cool sound over a V7b9 with a unaltered 5th.

I would also play G dorian b9 (FMM) over G7b9..

[JonnyPac]

I would also play G dorian b9 (FMM) over G7b9..

Avoid notes and no M3... Grrrr...



Just kidding!!

[brwnhornet59]

Yup, and it sounds great!!!!

Just think G7susb9.. or D-7b5...

Treat G7susb9 symmetrically and you can have a lot of fun.

Notice if you take any of the symmetrical 7susb9 sounds of G7 Bb7 Db7 E7 you can throw G Bb Db or E dorian b9 against them.

Or B-7b5 D-7b5 F-7b5 Ab-7b5 arps on them. Mix and match.

[JonnyPac]

I dig. Using plain old G Phrygian is cool too. Think of the m3 as the #9.

[brwnhornet59]

Agreed!!

[JonnyPac]

There is a long modal-jam-out on F13#11 (Lydian Dominant) in here:

[funkifized]

So, it seems as though chromatic root notes get the Lydian Dominant scale. Why, then, would the D7 in A Train be #11? Why A MM instead of D Mixolydian?