12 keys vs 5 positions...

**princeplanet** · 01-08-2012, 10:09 PM

So I got Coker's Patterns For Jazz, but buggered if I'm going to do every exercise through 12 keys as it suggests. I can see this being useful on piano or horns, but surely on the guitar it's more important to replicate each ex in the same key but different positions (5?). Once learned in 5 positions of one key, then tranposing to other keys is relatively easy, takes time to actually do it, but you're not really needing to learn new patterns.

Any thoughts on this?

**JakeAcci** · 01-09-2012, 02:22 AM

I got the tip off lately that once you get to a certain point with transposition, the work with guitar isn't in doing all 12 keys, but all possible string sets. Because if you have a shape down cold, well, obviously you could move it up or down to fit the key.

So yeah, I'm with you for five positions, but it just depends on the line - it might lend itself to fewer or more string sets than five.

A middle ground that I often employ is 4 keys total: the original, and up m3 until you're back at the start. That forces me to be at different places on the fretboard, but still be efficient.

Nuff Said · 01-09-2012, 04:38 AM

"Jerry Coker's Patterns For Jazz" is a classic book.

I used the patterns on page 77, I learn't a lot by playing in all 12 Keys and sang each note name.

Try this, play any note, sing the pattern and then play it in the key. Singing the notes help to train your ear, a good ear is what is needed for playing music, especially Jazz.

If you can, try to avoid just moving the pattern to another key and playing the pattern without really knowing each note.

Nuff

**JonR** · 01-09-2012, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

So I got Coker's Patterns For Jazz, but buggered if I'm going to do every exercise through 12 keys as it suggests.

Buggered if you're going to be a jazz musician, then.

Seriously, I sympathise, and guitar does make things temptingly easy by just being to shift a pattern up or down a few frets for another key.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter HOW you play something in all 12 keys, as long as you can play all 12 keys all over the fretboard, and not be bound by patterns.

You have to know every note on every fret, that's fundamental.
And how to construct any scale, anywhere on the neck.
And how to construct any chord, anywhere on the neck.
And be able to play any melody in any key, in any position (and any octave).

IOW, while patterns give you some shortcuts, they can also tie you to a notion of "Db major is easiest here...".

**princeplanet** · 01-09-2012, 10:41 AM

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not that lazy that I won't put in the hard yards. I have labored for years over the things I think matter, and that's why I have a better understanding of the things that may not matter, at least for my own aspirations. I believe in playing what I hear in 12 keys, but on the guitar there are ways to do this that are more effective than in others. The great thing about patterns is that they not only train the fingers but also the ears. Even if you never play the actual patterns in an improv, they serve to train your ear to "pre hear" things. If we consider a snapshot in time during an improv, let's say I'm in the 10th position and I'm in Eb major, about to move into Ab maj. I have just played a "g" on the a string 10th fret and am considering my options for the coming bar (and new temp key). If I've done the training then I should be playing what I'm hearing instead of just merely going to a "shape" that I know will "fit" somehow.

OK, so my point here is that I should know what a line will sound like from any note in my immediate (or not so immediate) vicinity. Not just predict what the Ab will sound like a semitone away, but every other note as well. Scales and patterns train our ears if we are singing along with what are fingers are doing. That's why we do it. Fine, I get it. That's why I take all my learnt vocab through 5 positions. So that when I'm in any given position (such as in the example cited above), I know how to make a phrase happen without making an error. Ok, I'm still making errors, but that's because I'm still learning and testing my ability to pre hear and express accordingly.

On the sax or piano etc, the only way to train this facility is to force yourself to replicate a phrase in different keys which tests this ability. But to take the same fingering on a guitar and move a phrase "shape" up the neck by 5 frets to move to a new target key is useless. Much harder and more useful is to stay in position and play any phrase in any key.

That is why I feel strongly that the guitar is a different beast and will not respond to the regimen of 12 key transposition the same way that most other instruments will. We must know our 5 positions better than (as well as before) we need to know our 12 keys. Is this cheating? I don't think so. Sure it's an advantage that out instrument offers us that we can transpose easily once our shapes are known. But this advantage is offset by the considerable extra burden of the myriad possible ways to execute any phrase we do wish to express on the instrument. Consider for example how guitarists will read music, say a violin part. Even a few bars will see every player choosing unique fingering and or/positional choices let alone right hand picking choices.

All I'm saying we have enough complexities to deal with on our instrument. We should realize this and cut ourselves some slack when it comes to transposition.

I'd suggest learning all chords and language in one key first, in 5 positions. Then, only after we can play what we hear in each position, should we dare venture to other keys. It just seems to make so much sense, and could be the reason many of us never fully win control of the fingerboard, despite a lifetime of trying.

The pedagogy for most other instruments is clearly not suitable for our own, yet we still adopt them. Coker, if he were a guitarist, would surely see that shifting patterns up by semitones on the guitar is a gross waste of precious time.

Feel free to disagree.....

**JakeAcci** · 01-09-2012, 11:21 AM

I agree with PP

This is another one of those things that works in levels and I think these discussions get mixed up because people are assuming a different "level" for the poster or the hypothetical player in question.

A guitarist needs to have facility in all keys for a variety of reasons.

Given what I've read from PP, I assume that he already is pretty comfortable playing in all keys.

This book isn't about learning the fretboard or learning general music, it's about assimilating specific vocabulary, right?

For certain scenarios, I really do agree that running something in all 12 keys isn't a great use of time. If you already know all the keys, know how to read well, etc, then it's just not that important to do ALL TWELVE for every lick or concept, in my opinion. Covering different regions of the fretboard seems adequate if you are already well aware of how to transpose.

One way to look at it is that if you put something in four keys, you have to do the work to figure out how to transpose that thing you were playing. You have to see the structure and harmony of it independent of key. But it may simply happen that once you do it for a few keys you "get it" and doing it for all keys isn't that important.

It really just depends.

I think the hard and fast "always practice in all 12 keys" gets obsolete and becomes an inefficient perspective once you've done it enough. At a certain point you might be simply practicing transposing when you intend to be practicing a bit of vocabulary, or some other concept.

Nuff Said · 01-09-2012, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

Play any note, sing the pattern and then play it

"Jerry Coker's Patterns For Jazz" the goal is to pre-hear a phrase/pattern and be able to play it instantaneously on your guitar. Personally, this is what I think Jazz is all about.

Learning phrases, patterns, songs and scales, arps and everything else develops this facility.

Nuff

**bako** · 01-09-2012, 09:04 PM

Several skills involved here.

Transposition:
When you see the music on the page can you mentally transpose it to all keys.

Knowing the fingerboard:
Can you visualize several places and ways to play each key on the guitar.

As guitarists we rely too much on shapes. Playing 12 keys within 5 frets forces us beyond the scope of shape thinking.

A variant on Jake's suggestion.
4 keys a day / twice through 12 keys in a week and one day off
2 keys a day / once through 12 keys in a week and one day off
key of the day / once through 12 keys in 2 weeks and one day off each week

Do enough to develop these skills until you can execute transposition without much effort.
Then you can practice an idea in one key but know that 12 keys are available.
Whether the Coker Pattern book is the best place for you to address this transposition issue is something for you to figure out for yourself.

**fumblefingers** · 01-09-2012, 09:52 PM

i agree with Bako and Jake (O? that would rhyme)

anyway, yes to 12 keys. but like any other large problem you can break it up into smaller more manageable parts.

so, you can do it Jake's way or do it around the circle of fifths:

Day 1: C-F-Bb-Eb
Day 2: Ab-Db-Gb-B
Day 3: E-A-D-G

etc, etc, ad nauseum.

**aniss1001** · 01-10-2012, 12:09 AM

Playing a frase / pattern / scale / arp in C then C#, D, D#, etc. is probably a really good exercise for horns, pianos, etc. but on guitar it's just too easy and doesn't make much sense. It makes more sense to focus on ALL the diffent fingerings (not just the 5 caged shapes). Just make sure that you're not always doing the exercise in the same key.

**fumblefingers** · 01-10-2012, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Playing a frase / pattern / scale / arp in C then C#, D, D#, etc. is probably a really good exercise for horns, pianos, etc. but on guitar it's just too easy and doesn't make much sense. It makes more sense to focus on ALL the diffent fingerings (not just the 5 caged shapes). Just make sure that you're not always doing the exercise in the same key.

when you say "ALL" the different fingerings, what do you mean by "ALL"?
are you referring to fingerings that are not found within the CAGED patterns? Like say.... 3NPS? Leavitt?

and if yes, why is that necessary?

(am not trying to start a debate, just trying to understand the logic

)

**bako** · 01-10-2012, 01:42 AM

If you play in 5 frets then chromatic keys are more challenging.

Example: Phrase from Oleo (frets 1-5 only)

Bb G D Eb D C Bb G G# A (original key)

Starting from the lowest possible key Ab. Given the range of a minor 6th, this is all 12 keys, 9 available in 2 octaves in this position.

Ab F C Db C Bb Ab F F# G

A F# C# D C# B A F# G G#

Bb G D Eb D C Bb G G# A

Cb Ab Eb Fb Eb Db Cb Ab A Bb

C A E F E D C A Bb B

Db Bb F Gb F Eb Db Bb B C

D B F# G F# E D B C C#

Eb C G Ab G F Eb C C# D

E C# G# A G# F# E C# D D#

F D A Bb A G F D D# E

Gb Eb Bb Cb Bb Ab Gb Eb E F

G E B C B A G E F F#

------------------------------------------------------

Ab F C Db C Bb Ab F F# G

A F# C# D C# B A F# G G#

Bb G D Eb D C Bb G G# A

Cb Ab Eb Fb Eb Db Cb Ab A Bb

C A E F E D C A Bb B

Db Bb F Gb F Eb Db Bb B C

D B F# G F# E D B C C#

Eb C G Ab G F Eb C C# D

E C# G# A G# F# E C# D D#

**aniss1001** · 01-10-2012, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

when you say "ALL" the different fingerings, what do you mean by "ALL"?
are you referring to fingerings that are not found within the CAGED patterns? Like say.... 3NPS? Leavitt?

and if yes, why is that necessary?

(am not trying to start a debate, just trying to understand the logic

)

Oh yeah let's DEBATE

Well, doing so is a really good exersize for starters. It helps you visualize the frase (or pattern, arp, etc.) all over the fretboard. And it helps you learn the fretboard and the intervals in general.

Also when you're playing changes you never know where your fingers may be on the fretboard in the moment you wanna play a certain frase (etc.) in some key. Not easy to find an example just like that, but let's say you're playing in this cage shape (say A minor starting on the 5th fret)...

Code:

|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|

...And currently have your index finger on the E on the H-string. Now you wanna play a frase (etc.) that starts on the B on the G-string. Sort of an akward jump don't you think? What if we played it using THIS form:

Code:

|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|
|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|
|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|-----|

...No longer a need for an akward jump. Isn't it a good idea to have practiced the frase (etc.) in this form too? If the idea is to be able to create longer lines than contains many frases (etc.) and spans over many chords..

Ah and here is a quote from Don Mock ("Artful arpeggios"): "The arpeggios fingerings used in this book are practical and commonly used, but are not the only posibilities. The serious guitarist should explore the guitar neck for any and all alternative fingerings."

I rest my case.. haha

**JakeAcci** · 01-10-2012, 03:08 AM

Aniss, "All fingerings" is a misleading distinction. For some phrases there could conceivably be hundreds of fingerings, many of them impractical.

**princeplanet** · 01-10-2012, 03:08 AM

it's "phrase" not frase btw...

**aniss1001** · 01-10-2012, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Aniss, "All fingerings" is a misleading distinction. For some phrases there could conceivably be hundreds of fingerings, many of them impractical.

Yes off course. All fingerings would be rather drastic since most would probably be very akward to play. Some judgement is needed as to whether a certain fingering is worth spending time on...

And ah yes "ph" not "f". Sorry.. Not my language..

**JakeAcci** · 01-10-2012, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Several skills involved here.

Transposition:
When you see the music on the page can you mentally transpose it to all keys.

Knowing the fingerboard:
Can you visualize several places and ways to play each key on the guitar.

As guitarists we rely too much on shapes. Playing 12 keys within 5 frets forces us beyond the scope of shape thinking.

A variant on Jake's suggestion.
4 keys a day / twice through 12 keys in a week and one day off
2 keys a day / once through 12 keys in a week and one day off
key of the day / once through 12 keys in 2 weeks and one day off each week

Do enough to develop these skills until you can execute transposition without much effort.
Then you can practice an idea in one key but know that 12 keys are available.
Whether the Coker Pattern book is the best place for you to address this transposition issue is something for you to figure out for yourself.

Originally Posted by bako

If you play in 5 frets then chromatic keys are more challenging.

Example: Phrase from Oleo (frets 1-5 only)

Bb G D Eb D C Bb G G# A (original key)

Starting from the lowest possible key Ab. Given the range of a minor 6th, this is all 12 keys, 9 available in 2 octaves in this position.

Ab F C Db C Bb Ab F F# G

A F# C# D C# B A F# G G#

Bb G D Eb D C Bb G G# A

Cb Ab Eb Fb Eb Db Cb Ab A Bb

C A E F E D C A Bb B

Db Bb F Gb F Eb Db Bb B C

D B F# G F# E D B C C#

Eb C G Ab G F Eb C C# D

E C# G# A G# F# E C# D D#

F D A Bb A G F D D# E

Gb Eb Bb Cb Bb Ab Gb Eb E F

G E B C B A G E F F#

------------------------------------------------------

Ab F C Db C Bb Ab F F# G

A F# C# D C# B A F# G G#

Bb G D Eb D C Bb G G# A

Cb Ab Eb Fb Eb Db Cb Ab A Bb

C A E F E D C A Bb B

Db Bb F Gb F Eb Db Bb B C

D B F# G F# E D B C C#

Eb C G Ab G F Eb C C# D

E C# G# A G# F# E C# D D#

Yes, when it comes to building vocabulary, transposition is essential but ultimately the skill of transposition is not the same as the skill of building vocabulary. I'm sort of making the point in this thread that if somebody is already a skilled transposer then when he is learning vocabulary it may not be necessary to take the time to repeat each step of the vocabulary building process in all twelve keys.

But if he doesn't have the ability to transpose most things on the fly, then it's obviously an essential skill to build.

As for shapes, I'm not very anti-shape...shapes are helpful, and certain fingerings allow blunt technical advantages over others. While it's essential to be able to refinger a phrase in a wide variety of ways, and play in all 12 keys within every 5 fret span, when it comes to performance I think we do need to be able to access our ideas in a playable, accessible fashion. Not that you (Bako) were saying otherwise, it's just a point I like to make about fingerings, as I used to look for every possible option not realizing that some fingerings - shapes - have blunt advantages in a performance context, especially for the picking hand.

**whatswisdom** · 01-10-2012, 10:57 AM

[quote=bako;193754]

As guitarists we rely too much on shapes

Shapes are great for visualization which can be done without the instrument. It's amazing the amount of practice you can do this way.

practice an idea in one key but know that 12 keys are available

When all's said and done, knowing the name of every note on the fretoard, instantly, without having to think about it, is the way to the promised land. Then fingerings are almost irrelevant.

**bako** · 01-10-2012, 11:48 AM

1. The raw material of fingerings are intervals. Within hands reach there are generally 2 ways to play any interval without shifts.

m2

VI-----A-Bb or VI-V-----A-Bb

Ma6

VI-V-----A-F# or VI-IV------A-F#

#11

VI-III-----A-D# or VI-II-----A-D#

See the interval on the page, hear the interval in the sound, know where to find it on the guitar.

2. The naming system is tied into the major scale. Anything natural, sharped, flatted, augmented, diminished, altered, etc is measured in relation to a key signature.

3. The architecture of the guitar tuning is best learned by seeing how the same events reoccur at the unison and octave.

These 3 elements support the ability to transpose and find fingering options.
It is an area worth pursuing but life is too short for all things in all keys in all fingerings.