Explain the rationale behind using a V7 chord in a minor key

**Broyale** · 01-01-2012, 11:02 AM

I don't understand why we do this. Thus far, i've been scouring the 'net for info on x-mas break but everywhere else teaches the natural minor key chords slightly different. My professor states that in a minor key, the "seven" chord is a major (VII), in my textbook, they use vii*. Same thing with the III which i've seen other places spelled as III+7 and, of course, V7 which I thought was supposed to be a minor v in the minor key, but other places say otherwise. What is the reasoning for so much inconsistency when talking about diatonic minor keys, especially if the words "harmonic" or "melodic" has not come into play? I'm a first year music major and i'd prefer not to have to deal with these types of inconsistencies, particularly if its my intent on working with other musicians. I just want to know what the STANDARD natural minor scale is and when and why would we ever deviate from that (like using chords not diatonic to the scale) Sorry if this came across as sloppy, i'm a first year music major, after all.

**bako** · 01-01-2012, 12:09 PM

What harmonies are derived from a scale is easy to define but the scale is not the whole story as concerning keys.
Even the major scale has chordal expansions beyond the 7 notes, the most common being secondary dominants.
In modal times the V7 used at final cadence was the first such expansion in the minor modes.
Minor keys are much messier than major because the elements spring from multiple sources, some might use
the expressions "modal interchange".

A B C D E F G A (natural minor/aeolian)

Am7 // Bm7b5 // CMa7 // Dm7 // Em7 // FMa7 // G7 //

A B C D E F G# A (harmonic minor)

AmMa7 // Bm7b5 // CMa7+ // Dm7 // E7 // FMa7 // G#dim //

A B C D E F# G# A (jazz melodic minor)

AmMa7 // Bm7 // CMa7+ // D7 // E7 // F#m7b5 // G#m7b5 (G#7Alt) //

A B C D E F# G A (dorian)

Am7 // Bm7 // CMa7 // D7 // Em7 // F#m7b5 // GMa7 //

A Bb C D E F G A (phrygian)

Am7 // BbMa7 // C7 // Dm7 // Em7b5 // FMa7 // Gm7 //

All of these chords and more can be are part of the minor continuum.
You are not the 1st or last to be confused by this topic.

**Broyale** · 01-01-2012, 12:25 PM

Thanks for the explanation, but the way I learned the minor scale was,

Am7 B half-dim7 CM7 Dm7 E7 FM7 GM7

I was led to believe that this was how it was done by my professor. But my question is why? I got an A in Music Theory I and was confident with the knowledge until I started reviewing the material. A lack of a standard approach makes self-review very hard to do. I'm just trying to find an explanation of the minor scale chords that is consistent with what i've learned thus far. Is there an approach to learning minor chord scales that doesn't involve unlearning what I already know? Or are minor chord scales in the realm of "whatever you want it to be".

**fumblefingers** · 01-01-2012, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

Thanks for the explanation, but the way I learned the minor scale was,

Am7 B half-dim7 CM7 Dm7 E7 FM7 GM7

I was led to believe that this was how it was done by my professor. But my question is why? I got an A in Music Theory I and was confident with the knowledge until I started reviewing the material. A lack of a standard approach makes self-review very hard to do. I'm just trying to find an explanation of the minor scale chords that is consistent with what i've learned thus far. Is there an approach to learning minor chord scales that doesn't involve unlearning what I already know? Or are minor chord scales in the realm of "whatever you want it to be".

1. natural minor is the same as the aeolian mode, but you know that. it's harmonies are the same as the major scale down a minor third. in other words the chords in a minor are the same as C major.

2. melodic minor was used for melodic effects by classical composers. it sounded better to raise the 6th and 7th when going up to the tonic.

3. harmonic minor creates some useful chords, hence its name.

when dealing in minor in classical you need to be ready for all harmonic possibilities from the 3 scales, in jazz fewer. just learn them all.

**Broyale** · 01-01-2012, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

1. natural minor is the same as the aeolian mode, but you know that. it's harmonies are the same as the major scale down a minor third. in other words the chords in a minor are the same as C major.

2. melodic minor was used for melodic effects by classical composers. it sounded better to raise the 6th and 7th when going up to the tonic.

3. harmonic minor creates some useful chords, hence its name.

when dealing in minor in classical you need to be ready for all harmonic possibilities from the 3 scales, in jazz fewer. just learn them all.

I understand that, but, unfortunately, that wasn't the way I taught it, hence why i'm on here asking.

So, for clarity's sake, when constructing a minor chord scale, you can pretty much make it a mixed bag of the natural, harmonic, and melodic key chords, correct? There is no established minor chord scale, its just left to discretion, right?
I was led to believe that the minor chord scale was built from the major chord scale (as you mentioned in 1.) and that's that, but apparently that isn't the case. I'm digging in my textbook and reviewing my notes now, but I don't understand the system for approaching minor chord scales. All of it seems left to the personal preference of whomever teaching the material and that's not acceptable to me as a beginner. I just don't want to set myself up for failure.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-01-2012, 01:46 PM

Yep. "Minor" is an entity...

**setemupjoe** · 01-01-2012, 02:20 PM

The way I was taught the minor scales was this way.
The Natural minor scale came from a mode of its related Major scale. All notes and chords are shared. The problem composers had with this scale was the absence of a leading tone from the 7th note to the tonic. In the key of C Major the leading tone is B leading to the Tonic note C which is very pleasing to the ear. In the key of C Natural Minor that became a Bb so that perfect resolution was lost.
So the invention of the Harmonic minor scale. The 7th degree of the scale has been raised giving us once again that pleasing semitone resolution. But now another problem surfaced. By raising the Bb to a B we've created a minor third interval from the 6th degree to the 7th degree. In C Harmonic minor this is Ab to B. This interval sounded very "abnormal" to their ears and not at all pleasing.
So this was rectified by raising the 6th degree a half step thus giving us the Melodic Minor scale. Now the Ab became an A. The interesting thing to note is how similar the C Melodic Minor scale is to the C Major scale. The only difference is the Eb or the 3rd step being lowered to accommodate the C Major becoming C Minor. So in their quest for the perfect minor scale their ears were leading them back to the sound they were most accustomed to, the Major scale.
In Modern composition, all three minor scales may be used to give the sound of a minor key though not usually all in one composition. As a musician, we have learned to differentiate the three scales by their sound and can quickly hear which scale the composer is using. Think of it as a rich palette of colors that a painter may use in his paintings. I think of the Natural Minor as sounding the most "modal." The Harmonic minor has that middle eastern sound and the Melodic minor the most "major" sound of the three minors.
For improvisational purposes, the three scales are all very useful, the Jazz Melodic Minor being the "hippest" of the three in bebop phraseology.

**bobby d** · 01-01-2012, 04:25 PM

Interesting. I think Dorian first when a playing minor scale. The Natural minor fits with Blues progressions that have minor chords in the 1st, 4th, and 5th degrees of the chord scale.

To me, the chord scale used would depend on the song's melody.

Thanks for the explanation, but the way I learned the minor scale was,

Am7 B half-dim7 CM7 Dm7 E7 FM7 GM7

What seems wrong in this chord scale - is the E7 introduces a G# that isn't in any of the other chords. Next F# is added in the GM7 chord. As a result, this chord scale uses 9 notes instead of 7. Could the Professor be smoking an illegal substance or is music theory really this complex?

Just my 2¢.

**Broyale** · 01-01-2012, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by bobby d

Interesting. I think Dorian first when a playing minor scale. The Natural minor fits with Blues progressions that have minor chords in the 1st, 4th, and 5th degrees of the chord scale.

To me, the chord scale used would depend on the song's melody.

What seems wrong in this chord scale - is the E7 introduces a G# that isn't in any of the other chords. Next F# is added in the GM7 chord. As a result, this chord scale uses 9 notes instead of 7. Could the Professor be smoking an illegal substance or is music theory really this complex?

Just my 2¢.

I'm under the impression now that there must not be a wrong arrangement of minor chords if, from what i've gathered, a minor chord scale is nothing more than whatever variation of the minor scales the instructor/author/composer says it to be. Since at this point, we're not dealing in diatonics anymore, right?

**jster** · 01-01-2012, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

The way I was taught the minor scales was this way.
The Natural minor scale came from a mode of its related Major scale. All notes and chords are shared. The problem composers had with this scale was the absence of a leading tone from the 7th note to the tonic. In the key of C Major the leading tone is B leading to the Tonic note C which is very pleasing to the ear. In the key of C Natural Minor that became a Bb so that perfect resolution was lost.
So the invention of the Harmonic minor scale. The 7th degree of the scale has been raised giving us once again that pleasing semitone resolution. But now another problem surfaced. By raising the Bb to a B we've created a minor third interval from the 6th degree to the 7th degree. In C Harmonic minor this is Ab to B. This interval sounded very "abnormal" to their ears and not at all pleasing.
So this was rectified by raising the 6th degree a half step thus giving us the Melodic Minor scale. Now the Ab became an A. The interesting thing to note is how similar the C Melodic Minor scale is to the C Major scale. The only difference is the Eb or the 3rd step being lowered to accommodate the C Major becoming C Minor. So in their quest for the perfect minor scale their ears were leading them back to the sound they were most accustomed to, the Major scale.
In Modern composition, all three minor scales may be used to give the sound of a minor key though not usually all in one composition. As a musician, we have learned to differentiate the three scales by their sound and can quickly hear which scale the composer is using. Think of it as a rich palette of colors that a painter may use in his paintings. I think of the Natural Minor as sounding the most "modal." The Harmonic minor has that middle eastern sound and the Melodic minor the most "major" sound of the three minors.
For improvisational purposes, the three scales are all very useful, the Jazz Melodic Minor being the "hippest" of the three in bebop phraseology.

This is the story I was taught except I was also taught that the singers couldn't sing the minor third of the harmonic minor. This story also explains why they have the names they do. The harmonic minor was invented for harmonic reasons. The melodic minor for melodic reasons. And I'm pretty certain the harmonic minor was invented first as per the story.

While we are talking about it, can somebody go over why descending and ascending are treated differently? Is it just because you don't resolve descending, so you can revert to natural minor?

**bako** · 01-01-2012, 07:14 PM

I am guessing that GMa7 is a mistake. Looking at the chord scale you presented which contains a mix of natural minor plus E7, I imagine the VII chord as G7 from A natural minor or G#dim from A harmonic minor. Ask your professor though to better understand his thinking.

In the scheme of human knowledge, music theory is not all that complex.

Learn the chord scales from the various minor scales/modes.
Analyze progressions that occur in minor key compositions and you will begin to get a better feel for this.
Music is rarely as neat and tidy as a concept that describes it is.

Song Samples

(random fake book choices)

Black and Blue (A section)

Am / Dm7 / Am / D9 Db9 / CMa6 A7 / Dm7 G9 / Cma7 / Bm7b5 E7 //

This has both Am and C major moments.

Django

Fm / Bbm / C7b9 / Fm / F7b9 / Bbm / Eb7b9 / Ab / DbMa7 / Gm7b5 / G7 / C7 / FmMa9 Fm / Bb9sus Bbm / C+ C7 / Bbdim/F Fm /

FmMa9 Fm / Bb9sus Bbm / C+ C7 / Bbdim/F Fm //

Song For My Father (A section)

Fm9 / % / Eb9 / % / Db9 / C7 / Fm9 / % //

One I heard on the car radio the other day

Children's Crusade by Sting (A section)

Bm / G / A / E / Bm / G / A / C / Bm / G / A / E / C / F / A / C / A / C //

Assorted others

House of the Rising Sun

Am / C / D / F / Am / C / E7 / % / Am / C / D / F / Am / E7 / Am / E7 //

While My Guitar Gently Weeps (A section)

Am / Am/G / D/F# / F / Am / G / D / E / Am / Am/G / D/F# / F / Am / G / C / E //

etc.

**fumblefingers** · 01-01-2012, 07:25 PM

broyale - no, not really. i think that your E and G chords are wrong - at least as a harmonization of "the minor scale" as you say. "The minor scale" is the "natural" minor scale because it's name is not qualified. To qualify it, one must say "melodic" or "harmonic".

If you meant to say the chords in a minor "key" or "tonality" then that would be different, but you said "scale".

Regarding these 2 chords:

The E7 is not from the A natural minor scale. But it could be from the Harmonic or Melodic Minor scales.
The GM7 is not from any of the 3 A minor scales.

And yes, we are still dealing with diatonics i believe.

I don't mean to be rude. It's just theory.

**Broyale** · 01-01-2012, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

broyale - no, not really. i think that your E and G chords are wrong - at least as a harmonization of "the minor scale" as you say. "The minor scale" is the "natural" minor scale because it's name is not qualified. To qualify it, one must say "melodic" or "harmonic".

If you meant to say the chords in a minor "key" or "tonality" then that would be different, but you said "scale".

Regarding these 2 chords:

The E7 is not from the A natural minor scale. But it could be from the Harmonic or Melodic Minor scales.
The GM7 is not from any of the 3 A minor scales.

And yes, we are still dealing with diatonics i believe.

I don't mean to be rude. It's just theory.

No, you're not being rude at all. Just trying to strengthen my (limited) understanding of the minor chord scales. This is frustrating because I planned on working out some minor chord progressions on the guitar, but got held up by this. Its that something I thought was so simple that I took it for granted turned out to be anything but.

**EddieLastra** · 01-01-2012, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

The way I was taught the minor scales was this way.
The Natural minor scale came from a mode of its related Major scale. All notes and chords are shared. The problem composers had with this scale was the absence of a leading tone from the 7th note to the tonic. In the key of C Major the leading tone is B leading to the Tonic note C which is very pleasing to the ear. In the key of C Natural Minor that became a Bb so that perfect resolution was lost.
So the invention of the Harmonic minor scale. The 7th degree of the scale has been raised giving us once again that pleasing semitone resolution. But now another problem surfaced. By raising the Bb to a B we've created a minor third interval from the 6th degree to the 7th degree. In C Harmonic minor this is Ab to B. This interval sounded very "abnormal" to their ears and not at all pleasing.
So this was rectified by raising the 6th degree a half step thus giving us the Melodic Minor scale. Now the Ab became an A. The interesting thing to note is how similar the C Melodic Minor scale is to the C Major scale. The only difference is the Eb or the 3rd step being lowered to accommodate the C Major becoming C Minor. So in their quest for the perfect minor scale their ears were leading them back to the sound they were most accustomed to, the Major scale.
In Modern composition, all three minor scales may be used to give the sound of a minor key though not usually all in one composition. As a musician, we have learned to differentiate the three scales by their sound and can quickly hear which scale the composer is using. Think of it as a rich palette of colors that a painter may use in his paintings. I think of the Natural Minor as sounding the most "modal." The Harmonic minor has that middle eastern sound and the Melodic minor the most "major" sound of the three minors.
For improvisational purposes, the three scales are all very useful, the Jazz Melodic Minor being the "hippest" of the three in bebop phraseology.

Great explanation, that makes a lot of sense, thanks for sharing. Funny how in the quest for new sounds things tend to go full circle.

**bobby d** · 01-01-2012, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by bako

I am guessing that GMa7 is a mistake. Looking at the chord scale you presented which contains a mix of natural minor plus E7, I imagine the VII chord as G7 from A natural minor or G#dim from A harmonic minor. Ask your professor though to better understand his thinking.

In the scheme of human knowledge, music theory is not all that complex.

Learn the chord scales from the various minor scales/modes.
Analyze progressions that occur in minor key compositions and you will begin to get a better feel for this.
Music is rarely as neat and tidy as a concept that describes it is.

Song Samples

(random fake book choices)

Black and Blue (A section)

Am / Dm7 / Am / D9 Db9 / CMa6 A7 / Dm7 G9 / Cma7 / Bm7b5 E7 //

This has both Am and C major moments.

Django

Fm / Bbm / C7b9 / Fm / F7b9 / Bbm / Eb7b9 / Ab / DbMa7 / Gm7b5 / G7 / C7 / FmMa9 Fm / Bb9sus Bbm / C+ C7 / Bbdim/F Fm /

FmMa9 Fm / Bb9sus Bbm / C+ C7 / Bbdim/F Fm //

Song For My Father (A section)

Fm9 / % / Eb9 / % / Db9 / C7 / Fm9 / % //

One I heard on the car radio the other day

Children's Crusade by Sting (A section)

Bm / G / A / E / Bm / G / A / C / Bm / G / A / E / C / F / A / C / A / C //

Assorted others

House of the Rising Sun

Am / C / D / F / Am / C / E7 / % / Am / C / D / F / Am / E7 / Am / E7 //

While My Guitar Gently Weeps (A section)

Am / Am/G / D/F# / F / Am / G / D / E / Am / Am/G / D/F# / F / Am / G / C / E //

etc.

This is where accidentals come into play. There's no reason to stick to one scale when composing. The Beatles often wrote songs with a minor and major of the same chord. Makes melody and harmony more interesting.

**Broyale** · 01-02-2012, 12:09 AM

After digging through difference responses across three forums, my textbook, my notes from the previous semester, and other online sources, would it just be safer to stick to building minor chord scales from the aeolian mode. I understand musicians want to do what "sounds good", but for sake of clarity as well a my education as i'm a first year music major, should I just stick with the aeolian mode or my professor's version of the minor chord scale (i iidim III iv V VI VII)?

**JonR** · 01-02-2012, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

After digging through difference responses across three forums, my textbook, my notes from the previous semester, and other online sources, would it just be safer to stick to building minor chord scales from the aeolian mode. I understand musicians want to do what "sounds good", but for sake of clarity as well a my education as i'm a first year music major, should I just stick with the aeolian mode or my professor's version of the minor chord scale (i iidim III iv V VI VII)?

I think if the whole thing is still confusing you, yes: stick to aeolian mode, build chords from that (and chord scales if you want).

Once you're familiar enough with that set of chords, try the effect (ie the sound) of changing the V chord from minor to major - especially when following it with the tonic (see below).
Obviously that means the scale has now changed. If you're in A minor, the chord is now giving you a G#, not G. So the scale has to reflect that - meaning you now have harmonic minor; but only on that chord.
Again, you need to work with that set of chords (which is the ones your professor gave you) for a while to get used to how they work together.

One very common sequence using (some of) your professor's set is what's known as the "Andalusian cadence", because of its role in flamenco: Am-G-F-E (not Em) - and repeat (end on Am finally).

Try comparing the following chord sequences:

Am - Dm - Em - Am (aeolian mode)
Am - Dm - G - Am (aeolian mode)
Am - Dm - E - Am (aeolian except for E - although harmonic minor could fit all 3 chords)

Am - G - F - Em (and back to Am...) (aeolian mode)
Am - G - F - E (and back to Am...) (aeolian mode except for E - harmonic minor could fit Am and F too, but not G)

Listen for the difference the G# note makes. Then there's the following variations - again with harmonic minor implied by the 3rd chord:

Am- F - E - Am
Am - Bdim - E - Am
Am - Bdim - G#dim - Am
Am - Bm7b5- E7 - Am6*

*Am6 has an added F#, implying A melodic minor. Otherwise the natural/harmonic mix can be the same (harmonic minor on 3rd chord only, or on all or any of them).

If this is "too much info" - forget it! Don't struggle with any theoretical concept that you can't HEAR the point of. You have to hear sounds (and differences between them) before theoretical explanations become useful.

I don't know what the 3rd site you asked on is, but I suggest you try the following:
eMusicTheory Forums :: Music Theory Questions and Answers
- that has classical experts, including at least one professor (stevel), probably the best (clearest) expert I've seen online.
Playing and Technique - The Gear Page
- a much busier site, with more mixed advice, but stevel also posts there sometimes.

You will, of course, get a mix of different explanations, but try to pick out any elements that keep cropping up, or that seem to make sense.
And make sure you ask your professor next time! (Take him on one side if you have to. Good teachers love being asked to explain things, trust me. The best student is one who is itching to know stuff, not the dumb ones who pretend to know and go away baffled. But be patient, and go back to first principles if you have to: tell your professor what you know already, and he may correct you, if there's some glitch that's stopping you progressing.)

**fumblefingers** · 01-02-2012, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

After digging through difference responses across three forums, my textbook, my notes from the previous semester, and other online sources, would it just be safer to stick to building minor chord scales from the aeolian mode. I understand musicians want to do what "sounds good", but for sake of clarity as well a my education as i'm a first year music major, should I just stick with the aeolian mode or my professor's version of the minor chord scale (i iidim III iv V VI VII)?

i think its best to come to an understanding of minor tonality from the classical perspective first (if that is what you are studying in college).

when you study from the jazz perspective the "rules" will be stated a little bit differently. (minor II-Vs, minor blues, modes to use with certain chords, etc). its best to seperate the two traditions while learning the concepts for the very first time, at least IMO. in other words, dont develop a flawed understanding or get a bad grade or in your classical theory class due to some confuson coming from the jazz perspective. there will be time for that

.

**ronjazz** · 01-03-2012, 12:13 AM

I think it's being overthought, certainly a rare thing for we guitarists. It's all about the tritone, the dominant-tonic resolution. The harmonic minor scale justifies the harmony, not vice-versa. Once humans got accustomed to V7-1 in major, the V7 became the "unstable", or dominant chord necessary to produce the tension necessary for resolution. If the V chord were minor, you could end right there, as much early music did. The works of the 15th and 16th century guitarists ("vihuelists") often lack tritone resolution, which makes them sound wonderfully exotic to modern ears.

**ronjazz** · 01-03-2012, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by JonR

One very common sequence using (some of) your professor's set is what's known as the "Andalusian cadence", because of its role in flamenco: Am-G-F-E (not Em) - and repeat (end on Am finally).

Try comparing the following chord sequences:

Am - Dm - Em - Am (aeolian mode)
Am - Dm - G - Am (aeolian mode)
Am - Dm - E - Am (aeolian except for E - although harmonic minor could fit all 3 chords)

Am - G - F - Em (and back to Am...) (aeolian mode)
Am - G - F - E (and back to Am...) (aeolian mode except for E - harmonic minor could fit Am and F too, but not G)

Just to point out that our ears are "trained" in a certain way, flamenco musicians do not always resolve the Andalucian cadence back to the "tonic" because it's actually a phrygian modality, and in such tocas as Allegrias, Bulerias and Soleares, the cadence in Am, in fact the whole tune, will more often end on "E", and sometimes, especially in modern flamenco, the final chord way well be a b9 or even a dom 7 with the 7th in the bass.

**JonR** · 01-05-2012, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Just to point out that our ears are "trained" in a certain way, flamenco musicians do not always resolve the Andalucian cadence back to the "tonic" because it's actually a phrygian modality, and in such tocas as Allegrias, Bulerias and Soleares, the cadence in Am, in fact the whole tune, will more often end on "E", and sometimes, especially in modern flamenco, the final chord way well be a b9 or even a dom 7 with the 7th in the bass.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but thanks for clarifying. The common usage of the sequence in the west (pop, folk, rock etc) is in key of A minor, resolving back to Am. I should have made the distinction clear (or maybe not mentioned flamenco at all!

).

**RyanM** · 02-16-2012, 09:36 PM

"Explain the rationale behind using a V7 chord in mnor key"

LMAO,
Play it. Listen. There's all you need to know...

**Broyale** · 02-16-2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by RyanM

"Explain the rationale behind using a V7 chord in mnor key"

LMAO,
Play it. Listen. There's all you need to know...

There wasn't anything about this question that was amusing. If you consider questions like these beneath your level of understanding, just don't even bother.

**fumblefingers** · 02-16-2012, 11:39 PM

its been some time since you asked this question. how's it going for you now?

**RyanM** · 02-17-2012, 01:20 AM

Sorry, no offence intended.
I think of minor keys as inclusive of all three forms of the scale. So V7 and v min are not inconsistent, they're both diatonic to the key.
But what I meant was, I think the best way to understand it is to try to learn the sounds (mostly by singing) of the raised and lowered 7ths and 6ths.
And also learn some minor key tunes to see how's they're used in practice, because scales and theory come after the fact, to describe (as opposed to dictate) what happens in practice.