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Know what else is useful?
A basic understanding of punctuation.
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12-05-2011 10:04 PM
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No, it doesn't. Useless means there is no use for it.
Originally Posted by ejwhite09
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Wow, well you seemed like an asshoole. Im trying to actually,engage you. Im on a cell phone, im sorry the keyboard size and my fingers dont suit you. I guess when you cant suss out shatneresque comma usae must have an explantion besides lack of knowledge of comma usage, you will need a map. Heres a clue, if you have no substance, which grammatical attacks betray, leave do something else with your time. Originally Posted by morroben
Last edited by ejwhite09; 12-05-2011 at 10:28 PM.
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Yes, relative to me, there is no use for it, therefore it is useless. Useless need not be an absolute condition. I was very clear 'I find theory useless.' Originally Posted by morroben
Reckon,the title 'no mo' no more means I have reached a limit meaning ive learned all I need. Which really was no more than how to name a chord and the major scale. Theres no way you can learn five jazz standards and come away needing a lesson on ii V I.Last edited by ejwhite09; 12-05-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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Actually, you were very clear that you find theory beyond week one to be useless. So it's not that theory is useless, or even useless for you, you've just found your cutoff point. No problem with that.
None of this really matters, I just fear that someone starting out will wander through and think, "Well that guy on the jazz forum said theory is useless, so screw it." And really, that's not even what you're saying. You're just using the term "useless" incorrectly.
I don't own a microwave. I don't care for microwave meals and I find that I can reheat my food in other ways that take up less counter space. That doesn't make microwaves useless. It just means I don't use one.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, but that doesn't make a skinning knife useless.
Like I said, I completely agree with you that playing and playing with others is a far more important part of the learning the process.Last edited by morroben; 12-05-2011 at 10:36 PM.
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Thats just semantics. You are using it absolutely relative to me a skinning knife is useless, I have no use for it. As I have no use for theory beyond concepts so basic,they are almost common knowledge. Originally Posted by morroben
There you go with,theory again. I would hope the theoretical person would see and read this guys says he finds it useless. Thats his journey. If theories valid in your life write an,ode to it.
Regardless im done, I deal with enough picayune people in real life.
Just to be clear kids:
I find theory,useless to ME. I am in no way telling you to disregard theoretical discovery if it helps you. And stay in school, and buy an iphone, lest the small android keyboard lead someone to insult you on the web.Last edited by ejwhite09; 12-05-2011 at 10:44 PM.
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My apologies if you felt insulted. That was not my intention. You had to expect that starting a thread on a jazz guitar forum stating that theory is useless would have some differing opinions.
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Obviously difference of opinion was my desire. Rancor was not. I dont know how you interpret 'you know what else is useful....punctuation.' Thats why i stopped posting on the forum too few gentlemanly disagreements too few discussions remaining above mutual masturbation. Originally Posted by morroben
Thanks for reminding me, this too is of no use to me. Back,to the woodshed.
Over, out and finished with the forum.Last edited by ejwhite09; 12-05-2011 at 11:13 PM.
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1. Lessons I've learned: you can have all the theory in the world, but if you don't have your aural skills up to snuff, if you can't get the time feel down, it doesn't matter, does it. You will be shit! :
2. At first I thought the punch line to this thread was going to be, "no theory for me, thanks, we're British".
3.It is 1,000,000 times better to be able to HEAR a m7b5 than to be able to to construct it on the chalkboard.
4. Hal Galper is right on so many fronts: the single most important aspect to this music is SYNCOPATION, the rhythm. Not much theory there, is there?
5. Also, Galper said so correctly: you are playing exactly like you hear it. That's the problem. Our hearing, our ears are not VIVID enough.
6. My god, man, who is that chick in your avatar? CGI or real person?
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Well, when having a discussion using text on a screen, punctuation helps a lot. I can understand the android thing. I'm an android user myself, and don't care for Iphones.
Don't leave the forum on my account. I'm just another guy with another opinion. There are a lot of us on the internet.
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I've been enjoying the book Hearin' The Changes, by Jerry Coker, et al. Nice, clear explanations on how jazz harmony works. For me, theory is an essential part of my efforts to play better.
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I would believe your organize your knowledge consciously or subconsciously. Maybe you would play a melody with a triad in it, you'd see this diagonal shape on the fretboard. You'd play another lick and there's that diagonal shape again. Now you see similarities in these and you extract that visual shape and play around with it. I would believe that's how players like Bireli Lagrene, who is one of my favourites, would organize his knowledge since it is rumored that he doesn't know any theory and can't read music(maybe he can now, I don't know). It was said that when Bireli was in his adolescence a teacher proceeded to attempt to teach him about scales. Turns out he could play it all and the teacher figured he didn't need it. So Bireli probably came up with his own way of organizing things.
You are absolutely correct when you say that music comes first, then theory. Theory is an after the fact explanation. A common language has been established to enable musicians to communicate with each other more easily. Then you have geniuses like Bireli who would get together with NHOP and Andre Cecarelli and they'd just play. At that point, the musicians have so much experience that theory becomes redundant.
So, just because you don't choose the common agreed upon nomenclature of theory doesn't mean that you don't make connections between what you learn on the guitar. In fact, that's all you need. As long as you can get how something "ticks", then you can call it whatever you want.
But I still rest my case when it comes to the fact that theory is necessary when communicating with fellow musicians. Not all of us are geniuses like Bireli, so we need a way to communicate about chord changes etcetra.
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+1. Originally Posted by morroben
Sometimes people want to start arguements just for the sake of starting arguements. People that say that theory is, "Useless," are 99% of the time people who don't understand theory and are just looking for an easy way around having to put in the time you need to play music.
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C'mon, how much theory did it take for Miles, Sonny Rollins, Benny Golson, Coltrane, Jackie McLean, etc., to become bebop experts before the age of 20? It's just some basic rhythmic and harmonic logic that allows you to make it as complicated sounding as you want. Discovering and applying the symmetry of the b5 tritone and it's many implications, and then developing a personal codex for it. It's math and blues.
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I agree! I don't think you need a PHD in theory to be a good musician, but that doesn't make theory useless. The things you listed are still theory, to some extent, and they're useful. I guess I just took the "useless" word as extreme. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
And also, for the record, I shouldn't have made the comment about the punctuation. Frustration got the better of me. My mistake. I sent the OP a private message apologizing and I hope he doesn't let my comments run him off.
I'm human. I screw up sometimes.
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Man, that subject of theory vs. no theory sure is polarizing! When I first picked up the guitar and started talking theory to some guitarists, they tried to eviscerate me! Definitely a hot button topic among the few musicians I have been around. They all took it so personally. I changed the subject of the conversation.
By the way, you have got to love that title to the thread, "No Mo' Theory for Me." There is no end to the different ways I am entertained by this site and as a bonus, I may even end up being a halfway good Jazz guitarist one day (one day.....sigh).
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Originally Posted by ejwhite09
It seems to me after reading all of your posts that you have not learned to apply what you learned in a functional way. That is not a slam, just an observation. You say you have learned a lot of theory, you spent a month reading and taking lessons. A month? Not much time for internalizing something so vast. You think that playing a parent key over its structure is good enough. That is fine for a rock player. The technique is referred to as carpet bombing. Hit and miss at best. While this approach can be used in jazz, if used solely it becomes very one dimensional very quickly, IMHO.
I think you learned math in school early on, as we all did. It took years to learn the basics so you could add, subtract, multiply and divide. That is what it takes to balance a check book. The same principle applies to this science/art. Rudiments are just the beginning.
Music is a life long journey, far separated from the bar band, weekend warrior mentality. Learning laws and structure enables us to transcend them in ways that frees us. How boring to think blue is blue and green is green. There are so many shades and variations that get passed by with that type of thinking. I would rather paint with knowledge, knowing how to invoke and imply the subtleties of many hues, than to ignore them because I do not know how to use them, so therefore it must be pointless to try.
Rather than trying to defend a point that seems to have turned into a troll post, I would grab your guitar and practice. I wish you much luck on your journey.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 12-08-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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You guys have won me over. I have also given up theory. Yesterday I tuned my guitar to random intervals and I'm amazed at what fresh sounds came out of it. Today I'm giving away my electronic tuner, and I'm getting back to the roots. Did Segovia have an electronic tuner? I don't think so. Same goes with theory. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't THINK Charlie Christian ever transcribed a Wes solo. I heard about a great piano player, his name was George Shearing I think. Somebody told me he never even LOOKED at a theory book. I think he could play better than any kid with a hundred theory books.
I have given up theory and now I just play. No practice. Just play. I think we're on to something here.
David
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I'm just starting with jazz, I've noticed in my short time that what's called 'theory' in music is actually very useful, unlike lots other 'theories' I've studied in college & grad school.
My teacher drops ' learn it & then forget' in talking about theory which sounds like good advice too, though I'm far from the 'forget it' stage.
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I love you Man!! Your my hero. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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I still don't get why people have to choose.
To me, the ultimate way is to learn theory and to cop licks from favorite players. You can have both approaches and get the best of both worlds.
If you feel theory is making your playing sound stereotypical or obvious, just momentarily forget it while you play. Put your fingers on random frets and see what comes out. Kurt Rosenwinkel has mentioned this as a great way to surprise yourself with fresh ideas. He knows all the theory in the world, yet he has one of the most unique voices on the instrument.
All knowledge is good knowledge. You just need to learn to use it the right way. I'd rather have it all than have to pick one approach.
I don't consider myself to be a particularly good player, but if I hear something I like, I'll steal it no matter if it is a lick, a scale, a concept whatever. If it sounds good, then I don't care if it is a theoretical construct or not.
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Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
That is the only way to approach it and have your own voice, as well as fun.
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Heh-heh. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I'm sure Mr. Shearing may have tried to look at a theory book, but somehow, I don't think he could learn that much from regularly printed books on theory. He should form a band with Mr. Jose Feliciano!
What? CC never transcribed any Wes solos? What a loser!!! Next time he logs on the inter web, we'll have to give him a torrent of abuse!
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Theory is essential ... It gives you the necessary foundation to criticize others. I suggest if you are lacking in theory, join the mainstream and simply make one up. Maybe even publish it. It might actually be more fruitful than learning how to play.
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CC didn't transcribe any Wes? Wow, he probably didn't transcribe and Michael Brecker either...
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