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I recently learnt that the characteristic Phrygian chord is a sus4b9 chord.
Why is it that you replace the m3 with the 4th. Can't it just be m7b9?
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11-26-2011 12:22 PM
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I think mostly because a m7b9 chord is kind of nasty sounding, and not particularly easy to voice lead into or out of or use where it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.
The susb9 has a more useable sound to it. Still not common, mind you.
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The idea behind sus chords for modal jazz - as I understand it - is you avoid the functional associations of tertian chords (built in 3rds).
Eg, a plain m7b9 might just sound like a weird extension on a iii chord in a major key. "Nasty" sounding, as mr beaumont says, because the b9 interval messes up the functional sound,
Take out the 3rd and replace it with the 4th, and you have a more mysterious chord, with no clear identity.
In modal jazz, we don't want chords to have "functions" - to sound like they might "lead" somewhere. We just want a nice-sounding bunch of notes from the scale, and quartal voicings (based on 4ths) work well for that purpose. (The chords don't have to be entirely in 4ths, just with 4ths ideally as the lowest 2 or 3 intervals.)
Having said that, remember that terms like "susb9" (short for 7sus4b9) are a theorist's or transcriber's invention. (I first saw the symbol in the Real Book, and in Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book.) They're an interpretation of what a musician (probably a pianist) played on a recording. We usually don't know what the player was thinking: whether they thought of it as "susb9" or something else, or what their intention was in using it.
And (AFAIK) voicings which can be described as susb9 have been used in at least two ways. As a phrygian modal chord (as mentioned), but also as a V chord in a minor key. Of course, context will tell us which is which.
Similarly, if you want mixolydian mode, don't use a dom7 chord. Use a 7sus4, 9sus4 or 13sus4. Of course, all of those might also imply dorian mode (and 7sus4 alone would accommodate aeolian or phrygian too). But that's kind of the point. Sus4s are an open-ended, ambiguous sound. Which is just the sound we want from a modal chord.
A dom7 chord, built in 3rds, is going to sound like the V of something (or maybe like a blues chord). A mixolydian modal chord is not the V of anything, its the I.
To identify the mode more clearly than a 7sus does, we might use a secondary chord containing other significant notes from the mode. Eg, in Miles Davis's "So What" they use two m11 chords; Em11 (E-A-D-G-B) and Dm11 (D-G-C-F-A) - the latter is the primary one, but the Em11 tells us the mode is D dorian, not aeolian or phrygian.
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m7b9 is less common and a little rough. You can do it, it's not typically part of jazz harmony the way 7sus4b9 is. A full Cm7b9 is also just Eb7/C. All 3,4, 5, 6, 7 note combinations from phrygian could be used for a phrygian sound, the consonance is subjective, and the historical application varies from structure to structure. I do voice 7sus4b9 with a m3 in addition to a 4 sometimes.
Anyway, the cool thing about sus4b9, it's really a slash chord. C7sus4b9= Gm7b5/C
If you think of a minor ii V pedaling the V you get a 7sus4b9 as the first chord
Gm7b5/C to C7b9 to Fm
is same as
C7sus4b9 to C7b9 to Fm
That's pretty normal, right?
The way I look at it, it's not that somebody sat down and said "what's the most phrygian chord I can come up with?" I think that the sound of 7sus4b9 probably (the historians can correct me) evolved out of the iim7b5/V idea above, which is just a vanilla minor ii V with a pedal.
So Gm7b5/C is a C7sus4b9 and it's original place was to lead to C7b9 and then to Fm, then you could argue that it's original function would be in the key of F minor. So C phrygian is the same pitch collection as F natural minor, which is probably how it was historically resolving, so that pitch collection sounds the most normal.
It's sort of a chicken/egg thing except in this case it's obvious the chicken came first
7sus4b9 is 1, b2, 4, 5, b7. If you want a seven note scale to match that, you take those 5 tones and add two more. Phrygian happens to work by adding a b3 and a b6 - but plenty of other scales work for that chord as well, just not any of the other diatonic/major modes. Also, 5 notes is plenty for me, 1 b2 4 5 b7 is a very pretty scale that I use often, it can be transposed for many chord types.
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I just build a m6/9 chord and add a bass note up one step. Like Dm6/9/E. It's a good sound.
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Originally Posted by JonnyPac
Esusb9
Dm6/E
Bm7b5/E
- all the same thing .
Fmaj7/E would also do it, although you lose the stability that the B in the above chords provides. Fmaj7#11/E?
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
But I agree - 5 notes is usually plenty .
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easiest way for me, and a way that piano players think about this too, is about the lydian voicing a half step above the root, so Flydian over E.
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I read a good thread about this at AAJ. If I recall correctly Vic Juris treats an E phrygian (for example) s an Fmab5 over E. . Pretty much as nion points out
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I think the original question is kind of interesting - why not m7b9? I mean, yeah it's an usual sound, but is there actually any theoretical basis for why that chord isn't common? Maybe it's the 'next big thing.' I mean, maj7#9 and maj7b9 have found their place in modern jazz compositions, there's gotta be some m7b9 as well, if not now then in the future!
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Eg adding F to Em7 starts confusing it with Fmaj7, or Dm9. iii chords have a very weak functional role anyway, often standing for the tonic. So adding a b9 gives them a touch of IV or ii, not very helpful.
(Aside from the "nasty" dissonance of the b9 "avoid note", that is; although the reason we hear it as "nasty" is - IMO - precisely because we can discern no logical functional purpose for it. It sounds "wrong" because it has no clear job; and it gets in the way of the main job the chord is supposed to be doing. Get that note outa here!)
When it comes to modal harmony, the reverse is the case. The presence of the tertian basis of the chord suggests unhelpful hints of functionality. We can have the b9 - because in modal jazz dissonance is just colour, it has no meaning, so anything from the mode is cool. But it's better to demote the b3. Either remove it altogether, and add the 4th; or include the 3rd as a kind of afterthought on top (4th below).
But this is all dependent on our supposed familiarity with those two kinds of harmony (functional keys, and modes), and a need to perceive them separately in order to understand the music. It's a good argument that we ought to be beyond that stage by now. Jazz is now post-modern, and anything goes (or should do).
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Try resolving a Cm7(-9) to an AbMaj chord.... I think the reason the -9 isn't used on minor chords is that it turns them into dominant sounding chords. Thats not to say those structures arent used, they are, just not as a Minor 7th chord as Jon pointed out above.
I would like to add that the phrygian scale, in my experience, is quite at home on a minor 7th type chord functioning as a 3 chord in a major key.
So, if you have a progession like....
GMaj7----CMaj7----Bmin7-----Amin7--D7--
for example, the "B phrygian" scale would work just fine on the B chord. Or, that is to say... A C natural would work fine as a non chord tone on this chord, and might in fact sound better than a C#.
Also, if it where a vamp...
Gmaj7----F#min7----
I might Keep the G natural making the F#min7 a phrygian chord.
There are lots of situations where phrygian might work well over a given min7 chord. it's a choice, and an aquired taste IMO.
what about F# Phrygian with a raised 6th (E Mel Min) over this vamp..
Gmaj7(-5)----F#min7----Last edited by timscarey; 11-28-2011 at 12:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
No offence (you're not alone in this ) but applying this one-scale-per-chord notion in that kind of sequence is one of the dumber things about chord scale theory.
That chord progression is in the key of G major. No modes are involved.
Of course, when improvising, you should differentiate the scale by working from the chord tones - and not always from the chord root - with passing notes. The available passing notes are the remaining 3 from the diatonic scale. And if you don't know those, you can choose from the chords either side, which gives you the same result.
This is not rocket science!
It's meaningless to say you can "play B phrygian" on that Bm7. You are simply playing some pattern of the G major scale. The chord is not a i chord in B phrygian. It's a iii chord in G major (G ionian).
It might sound faintly "phrygian" while the chord is sounding, but there's no point in knowing that. It would be the case whatever pattern of G major you used (the C note would be in there regardless).
And if you thought maybe B aeolian or B dorian would also work, then you'd be selecting 1 or 2 wrong notes, for no good reason.
However - in this case, the choice of C# on the chord might still be possible (one famous rock song does it) - but that's down to consonance on the chord itself. Nothing to do with modes. C is the natural choice, because it's in the key. But it's technically an "avoid note" - it sounds fine in passing, in a melody or solo, but not as a chord extension. C# is a "wrong note" keywise, but can sound good as an extension on the chord. So the decision is down to what the context dictates. Normally, you'd go for G major scale.
The same idea applies to sometimes choosing a raised 4th on the tonic chord. That's not really anything to do with "lydian mode", although that's a handy term for the effect. It's done to provide a better-sounding chord extension than the perfect 11. (It's still a major key tonic, not a lydian modal chord - although I can see the difference is academic!)
Originally Posted by timscarey
G#might make an interesting alternative, if you wanted to differentiate the chords, as separate modal chords.
Originally Posted by timscarey
Originally Posted by timscarey
Again, it would depend on where you found this vamp. If you're making it up yoruself, then of course you can use any notes you like . If it's from some other composition, then there are usually hints as to what the correct scale is. (You can deviate from what's given, naturally, but it's good to begin there, at least.)
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Whoa,
Jumping to some conclusions there Jon.... I was just pointing out that a chord doesn't need a -9 to be a phrygian chord. You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. It's all good. What about this progression, which is more like a situation where you might actually think "phrygian"
Cmaj7--Bmin7--C#min7---Cmaj(-5)----F#min7--------
Believe me, I don't condone thinking in modes while improvising over diatonic progressions.
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Has any one given their favourite voicings of this chord? Here's one for a sus4b9 I learned in another thread. A bit of a stretch, but worth it:
Bsus4b9: x9955x
On a piano I would simply grab, with one hand, B C E F#.
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
8 x 11 10 8 8
8 x 8 6 6 8
x 3 5 6 6 x
x 3 5 6 6 6
x 3 5 5 2 x
w 13:
8 10 11 10 10 8
without the root, any Gm7b5 voicing works well, drop 2, closed, w 11, etc....same w Dbmaj7#11, same idea...or as JP pointed out, Bbm69, etc
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Some quick ones
x 35666 C phrygian
356533 G phy
stretchy but do-able
10 15 13 12 10 10 D phy.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
Originally Posted by timscarey
IOW, I'm not sure what this example is getting at!
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Originally Posted by JonR
This is just an example of a chord progression (from a tune I play pretty often) where I, or someone else, might actually be thinking "phrygian" over a regular minor 7th type chord. I personally like the b2 on all three of the m7 chords in this progression, however, I also like the nat 2
I think thats why I always think of phrygian as an "option" or, rather, b2 on a minor 7th or min 6th chord as an "option", one that is left out of a lot of discussions on CST. Ya know? I feel like I hear people saying that Melodic Minor is an option on a min7 chord but hear little mention of a phrygian minor 7th. IMO phrygian fits better than MM on most min7 type chords.... okay now I'm just ranting.... I'll stop.
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Yeah, even though the progression is diatonic, you can still get that Phrygian sound by targeting the modes characteristic pitches over the chord...
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Originally Posted by timscarey
The way I'd think over such a progression is usually trying to link the chords in some way, not isolate them (although other aspects of the tune will guide me too). That's just my preference. So I would probably be using a b2 on all those m7 chords, simply because that suits the context best. (The F#m could have a nat2, if I link it back to the C#m7.)
But it would depend how long each chord lasted. The longer a chord lasts, the less influence the chords either side have on it, and the freer the modal options (IMO).
Originally Posted by timscarey
Eg, if you take a tune like "So What" and decide to play phrygian on the min7 chord, you're not playing "So What" any more... You're missing the whole point of the piece. (I'm not saying you should never do such a thing - call the jazz police! - only that you should be aware of what you're doing. Destroying an original creatively is good. Destroying it out of ignorance is bad.)
The only tune I can recall ever playing which allowed (even encouraged) fairly free modal choices was Maiden Voyage. The melody does kind of gently imply specific modes, but mostly it remains ambiguous.
Originally Posted by timscarey
Originally Posted by timscarey
IOW, even if it's a iii chord in major, I'm not thinking "phrygian mode". I'm thinking chord tones and key scale; and constructing a melodic phrase that will bridge the chords either side.
In "Little Wing" I like the way Hendrix adds a natural 2 to the iii chord - an unusual example, but phrygian would be totally wrong there.
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Thank you guys. Always lurking to read up on the wealth of knowledge here. Very helpful and much appreciated.
Originally Posted by JonR
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