The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Not always, Tal...

    the thing with jazz for me is that it is quite open theoretically as it is now still some kind of living form of musical language (unless we strictly define jazz to some completely deteremined style of the past like 'bop' or 'swing')..

    That makes difficulties - because when people speak about theory they intuitively try to fit the scientific model of thinking, they try to be specific and exact, try to formulate a pattern and so on -- this is in general the problem with theories in Arts for me - actually in my opinion discussing music should be also some kind of artistic (not scientific) process.. there is too much of ambiguous nature in Arts to be able to be described in scientific terms.
    I agree with you so far. But this is a general philosophical point about theorizing art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Anyway... though I absolutely understand your mode of thinking here I still think that it is possible to think of chord tones doubled above as of an extention...

    By the way it may be interesting that in baroque figuered bass there was a period of very dense figure writing and they had 14 and 10 there))) Exactly when they wanted to indicate a necessasity of this tone an octave above...

    But anyway I think it is an open issue.

    Theory should not put restirictions, it should help to somehow organize what we already hear as convinicing.
    Of course you can play chord tones doubled (or not doubled) above an octave, but that's called a voicing. That is my point. I wasn't saying that such voicings shouldn't be played, I was saying that the chord symbols are a poor choice of notation for that purpose.

    Figured bass is only roughly analogous to chord symbols. As you say, when a certain notation is chosen in figured bass, that indicated the "necessity" of a certain voicing. Chord symbols are a lot more loose about that. A dominant 13 chord doesn't mean the bass player cannot emphasize the 6th in the bass line or the the accompanying instrument will have to play a certain voicing of the dominant. To most jazz musicians that just means "unaltered" dominant. That doesn't even mean they won't see fit to play altered dominant or a tritone if it's resolving.

    To many, chord symbols encode chord scales. Dom b913 would be half-whole diminished, Dom 9 #5 whole tone, Dom #4 Lydian dominant etc. Again this is still very different than the figured bass that the notation is not saying how you vertically order the notes in your voicings but what tension notes should (or can) be included in your voicings. You can put tension notes in the bass too.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-25-2021 at 08:08 AM.

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  3. #77

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    The piano players in the tradition that Barry Harris represents, for example, do not think of extensions as doubled (or not doubled) notes above an octave. They think of them as borrowed notes from the related diminished chords. Borrowing happens horizontally, not vertically. Any inversion of the chords could be played. That means color notes can be in the bass, tenor, alto or soprano. Again, there is no implication that the color notes go to the octave above the other notes.

  4. #78

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    So for someone wanting to really explore the world of chords/voicings, is there a book/resource recommendation? I've heard an awful lot about "the Mickey Baker book" over the years....

    And not just a resource showing how to build them (this thread does that), but does at least some explanation on WHERE/HOW you might use them?

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    So for someone wanting to really explore the world of chords/voicings, is there a book/resource recommendation? I've heard an awful lot about "the Mickey Baker book" over the years....

    And not just a resource showing how to build them (this thread does that), but does at least some explanation on WHERE/HOW you might use them?
    check out the Ted Greene site..(TedGreene.com) if anyone has questions on chords..this man has the answer.and then some..

    the baker book #1 is a very basic intro into jazz..he starts with 26 chords IIRC..and uses them to introduce progressions and exercises...its not a explanation of " why is it called a 13 chord.." the Greene site will breakdown the notes in a chord and give you several ways to play it..including the chords inversions..and he does this in many keys and positions on the neck..check the "lessons" section

    he also has several books on chords (chord chemistry) and chord progressions ..and single note playing over all types of chords

  6. #80

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    The OP said "Back in the Genesis of music theory, why were upper extension chords limited to 9th, 11th, & 13th chords? Why are there not 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th chords?"

    (....... and setting aside the fact that this thread practically dates back to Genesis)


    Genesis of music theory? I don't think that there were 9th, 11th and 13th chords called out as such in Gregorian chant (but then what do I know about Gregorian chant?). I do recall seeing 13th chords in 19th century music, but that occurred long after the genesis of music theory. The point being, it took a while before 9th, 11th, 13th chords were called out as such.

    So, why are there not
    8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th chords? Because they're chord tones, not tensions (at leas the 8th, 10th, 12th). They have a consonant/expected sound, even when doubled or tripled.

    Another poster said "There are no chord tones above an octave". Well, it seems to me that's not true. Not even for the guitar. And also not for the piano, not for a full swing band, and certainly not for a full symphony orchestra. I mean, which octave are we talking about anyway? The octave inhabited by the bass, bassoon, tuba, or the piccolo? Anyway, it's all relative. Range is wide.


    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 02-27-2021 at 09:52 AM.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    So for someone wanting to really explore the world of chords/voicings, is there a book/resource recommendation? I've heard an awful lot about "the Mickey Baker book" over the years....

    And not just a resource showing how to build them (this thread does that), but does at least some explanation on WHERE/HOW you might use them?
    This is a great question and could/should be a thread all by itself. One short, direct answer is that there is a Trufire course from Fareed Haque that addresses that question, at least in terms of comping. Oh, and forget Mickey Baker. Way past time to get over his books, nice as they were and everything.

    Another way to think about it is:

    Lower string chords - a number of books out there on the Freddie Green/shell voicings thing. Mostly for comping, but not a hard and fast rule at all. Every Jazz Guitarist should learn these.
    Middle string chords - Brett Willmott's book. Good for comping and chord melody. Oh, and every Jazz Guitarist should learn these too.
    Upper string chords - a variety of sources for these. Drop 2 voicings, quartal voicings, voicings with tensions, etc., etc. Great for chord melody but also some comping. Wes transcription books, Bloom School books. And you guessed it... every Jazz Guitarist should learn these.


    Finally, yes Ted Greene covered everything under the sun chord wise, but that is a chosen path/rabbit hole.
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 02-27-2021 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung
    Back in the Genesis of music theory, why were upper extension chords limited to 9th, 11th, & 13th chords? Why are there not 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th chords?

    Just curious what the story is behind this.

    thx
    The story is chord symbols were only ever practical shorthand... there was no Genesis of music theory... but Berklee tried to tidy up and standardise the system.

    You see something similar happening with figured bass. Early on (Monteverdi’s time) the compound intervals are specified and later they are all compressed within one octave (Bach’s era) except for the occasional 9th etc

    Chord symbols borrow a little from figured bass but in general went from simple major minor etc, and got more complicated over time. The non triad tones, 9ths, 13ths and so on, appear as compound intervals because these notes were generally found in the melody, so in a higher register than the chord.

    Furthermore it matched up with ideas about extended chord construction in thirds.

  9. #83

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    Does anyone know when were chord symbols first used?

    I've always assumed that it began with sheet music for simple folk songs (i.e. open chords like Em, Cmaj, Amin etc.) and was then expanded to accommodate the more complex chords of jazz progressions.

    Prior to that I would think that the exact notes were written out in a score, and that there was no need for the shorthand of chord symbols.

    But I don't actually know, which is why I'm asking!

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    Chord symbols borrow a little from figured bass but in general went from simple major minor etc, and got more complicated over time. The non triad tones, 9ths, 13ths and so on, appear as compound intervals because these notes were generally found in the melody, so in a higher register than the chord.

    Furthermore it matched up with ideas about extended chord construction in thirds.!
    I think in its essence figured bass is even more practical and specific.
    What's important that is always a bass. And it describes with certain apprixomation a voicing -which of course we interpreted in terms of general harmony, functions etc.
    But in direct sense it tells only the bass and voices above. So it is very practical.

    Chirds symbols are sort if tge opposite essebctially: they infom more first of all about harmonic sound of the chord... in their basic form they describe harmony in the static way... even bass in esi us indicates occasionally
    Although real practice developed some conventions that make interpretation of symbols very specific like Am11 will be probably interpreted very similar in voicing by different players in tradition.
    But still it does not contain that information exactly


    I think that figured bass appeared in tradition that cultivated sophistication and systenatization in some sense and theorizing too.
    Those who invented figured bass found pleasure in describing it in details in written form however practical that skill was and is.


    And modern chird symbols got on tge foeld of totally oral tradition and everyone used them the way they thought most convenient

  11. #85

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    There was also alfabeto for baroque guitar where letters referred to chord shapes...


    And it is interesting that it reminds me of a popular use of chord symbols today... for many amateur players who just comp songs D and G mean particular guitar shape... they sometimes even do not know that it is possible to play the other way

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    There was also alfabeto for baroque guitar where letters referred to chord shapes...


    And it is interesting that it reminds me of a popular use of chord symbols today... for many amateur players who just comp songs D and G mean particular guitar shape... they sometimes even do not know that it is possible to play the other way
    There's a whole PhD thesis on Fernando Sor vs Giuliani and the Spanish alfabeto school versus the Italian figured bass school of classical guitar composition. It's quite interesting if you like that sort of thing. Sor was much more likely to use more diverse keys, for instance.

    Even now those who realise partimento on the guitar tend to go for friendly open keys like G and D. This is in the tradition of Guiliani apparently.


  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    Does anyone know when were chord symbols first used?

    I've always assumed that it began with sheet music for simple folk songs (i.e. open chords like Em, Cmaj, Amin etc.) and was then expanded to accommodate the more complex chords of jazz progressions.

    Prior to that I would think that the exact notes were written out in a score, and that there was no need for the shorthand of chord symbols.

    But I don't actually know, which is why I'm asking!
    Sheet music of the early 20th century usually had ukulele chords given above the piano score. Thats what I have heard as the origin of the chord symbol system but I'm sure there's more scholarship to be done... The Tunedex card system developed the lead sheet concept, by writing out just the melody with chord symbols above.

    This book might be interesting
    The Story of Fake Books: Bootlegging Songs to Musicians - 9780810857278

  14. #88

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    There's a whole PhD thesis on Fernando Sor vs Giuliani and the Spanish alfabeto school versus the Italian figured bass school of classical guitar composition. It's quite interesting if you like that sort of thing. Sor was much more likely to use more diverse keys, for instance.
    It is interesting... I guess more focus in alfabeto would result more chordal sound (more dense chords used) and more use of stopped stirngs fingereing in more focus in figured bass would lead to more coutepoint-like transparent texture with more open position used?

    I always felt that difference between Spanish and Italian school though I did not know about those origins of it...

    But on the pther hand I am sure Sor had not problems with couterpoint playing and playing from figured bass... (to be honest to me he is much higher as a composer than Giuliani)

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    It is interesting... I guess more focus in alfabeto would result more chordal sound (more dense chords used) and more use of stopped stirngs fingereing in more focus in figured bass would lead to more coutepoint-like transparent texture with more open position used?

    I always felt that difference between Spanish and Italian school though I did not know about those origins of it...

    But on the pther hand I am sure Sor had not problems with couterpoint playing and playing from figured bass... (to be honest to me he is much higher as a composer than Giuliani)
    Yeah I think he did that as well... Anyway, it's worth reading the phd.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    Does anyone know when were chord symbols first used?

    I've always assumed that it began with sheet music for simple folk songs (i.e. open chords like Em, Cmaj, Amin etc.) and was then expanded to accommodate the more complex chords of jazz progressions.

    Prior to that I would think that the exact notes were written out in a score, and that there was no need for the shorthand of chord symbols.

    But I don't actually know, which is why I'm asking!
    Looking at early banjo parts for big bands, they were originally written with just chord voicings and no chord symbols. Any of these charts floating around today usually have pencilled chord notation filled in.
    As far as I can tell, sometime around 1920 banjo charts began to incorporate chord symbols. I have seen people associate this with Paul Whiteman but I don’t know if this is true.
    I’ve always believed that the system of naming chords more complex than triads was something done piecemeal by musicians on bandstands. This explains the varied ways chord symbols are written and the haphazard naming system. Honestly though, I’ve never read a comprehensive account of it.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Looking at early banjo parts for big bands, they were originally written with just chord voicings and no chord symbols. Any of these charts floating around today usually have pencilled chord notation filled in.
    As far as I can tell, sometime around 1920 banjo charts began to incorporate chord symbols. I have seen people associate this with Paul Whiteman but I don’t know if this is true.
    I’ve always believed that the system of naming chords more complex than triads was something done piecemeal by musicians on bandstands. This explains the varied ways chord symbols are written and the haphazard naming system. Honestly though, I’ve never read a comprehensive account of it.
    I agree, that's probably how it developed, and the chord symbols followed as the music changed.

    The Nashville number system is another shorthand that is used to chart out chords. I've never used it, but the intriguing thing is that it has transposition built into it. You just say "key of... " and the numbers show you how it goes. It could save having to deal with charts for C, Bb and Eb instruments.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul

    The Nashville number system is another shorthand that is used to chart out chords. I've never used it, but the intriguing thing is that it has transposition built into it. You just say "key of... " and the numbers show you how it goes. It could save having to deal with charts for C, Bb and Eb instruments.
    Essentially it is the same as classical system where the scale degrees are used...

    Actually in Russia where the classical foundation is very fundamental (there are separate mostly free state schools where kids can go together with regular schools from around 7 and then a college and a conservatory) it is also widely used in jazz colleges and education... because most guys that teach have basic classical education in theory, piano etc.
    I cannot say that this education is always god - often it is very formal as it happens with parents and kids when kids just go there for years and forget everything when they quit... but still it makes educational system very much systemized.
    I noticed when I began to travel and to talk with musicains friends in other countries that in Europe and Us it is very different.

    The first book on jazz I had was Moltkov's Method of jazz accompaniment published in USSR, those days there were no other printed resources.
    And later when the Internet and all came I realized that it was a mixture of Mickey Baker's stuff (some patterns just exactly the same) and Russian classical methods with standard notation, functions and those numerals with scale degrees.
    All the harmonic patterns/subs and all that were explained and studied through numerals. And after that given in standard chord symbols and fingering charts.
    Also there was lots about functions and functional relation in the way it is taught in musical schools here.

    Actually I think it was good for trad jazz because it really relates things important basic things of standards harmony of functions that in English editions it is more about chord scales and all...
    In my opinion it is easier to learn and implement scale ideas later when you already have basic functional harmony understanding and hearing than the opposite...

    Also Ted Green used that system slight modified and adjusted for his purposes and Tim Lerch who used to be his students and keeps developing his style - also advises this approach

  19. #93

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    It is possible to extend thirds out to include all 12-notes of the chromatic scale without breaking the overtone series. Unfortunately, the traditional tonal systems have no way of naming these structures, much less a method of using them musically. AFAIK, the Equal Interval System is the only one that tackles this issue at the outset, using its own consistent nomenclature at the very outset, and it remains consistent regardless of whatever vertical or horizonal intervals are used. That said, it is aimed more at composing than improvising.


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  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    It is possible to extend thirds out to include all 12-notes of the chromatic scale without breaking the overtone series. Unfortunately, the traditional tonal systems have no way of naming these structures, much less a method of using them musically. AFAIK, the Equal Interval System is the only one that tackles this issue at the outset, using its own consistent nomenclature at the very outset, and it remains consistent regardless of whatever vertical or horizonal intervals are used. That said, it is aimed more at composing than improvising.


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    i don’t know what that is but I like the sound of it

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    It is possible to extend thirds out to include all 12-notes of the chromatic scale without breaking the overtone series. Unfortunately, the traditional tonal systems have no way of naming these structures, much less a method of using them musically. AFAIK, the Equal Interval System is the only one that tackles this issue at the outset, using its own consistent nomenclature at the very outset, and it remains consistent regardless of whatever vertical or horizonal intervals are used. That said, it is aimed more at composing than improvising.


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    You mean mean-tone with pure thirds? If so what sense would those extensions make?
    Or did I misunderstand you?

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    It is possible to extend thirds out to include all 12-notes of the chromatic scale without breaking the overtone series. Unfortunately, the traditional tonal systems have no way of naming these structures, much less a method of using them musically. AFAIK, the Equal Interval System is the only one that tackles this issue at the outset, using its own consistent nomenclature at the very outset, and it remains consistent regardless of whatever vertical or horizonal intervals are used. That said, it is aimed more at composing than improvising.


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    what is the Equal Interval System? is it related to equal temperment vs just temperment/harmonic series/ratios?

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    You mean mean-tone with pure thirds? If so what sense would those extensions make?
    Or did I misunderstand you?
    Not mean-tone tuning. The -9 interval (an octave plus a half step) is a dissonance that “breaks” the overtone series. It can be used if there’s a -7 in the vertical structure to soften the dissonance, but that’s just in the context of 7-note scales and the octatonic scale.

    If you want to extend a structure to include all 12 notes and have it sound good, you’ll have to arrange the intervals so as to avoid that -9 dissonance. I’ll clue you in on the easy ones; you can stack 4ths all the way out to all 12 notes without that rub, and you can stack 5ths all the way out to 12 notes. Both of those structures have no dissonance and they ring as clear as a bell. So, how would one name these structures? The basic universal unit of measuring the distance between notes is the half-step (let’s call it “1”, like it would appear on a ruler). So stacked fourths would be called 5+5. Stacked fifths would be called 7+7. A major triad would be called 4+3, a minor triad is called 3+4, a diminished chord would be 3+3

    There are ways to extend tertiary structures in a similar manner out to twelve notes. I’m not at liberty to divulge that info, but I’ll drop a clue: you have to make a small adjustment as you go into each succeeding octave so as to avoid the dreaded -9 dissonance. In the EIS system it’s referred to as the theory of total dissonance, but it could be just as accurately described as total consonance.


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  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    Not mean-tone tuning. The -9 interval (an octave plus a half step) is a dissonance that “breaks” the overtone series. It can be used if there’s a -7 in the vertical structure to soften the dissonance, but that’s just in the context of 7-note scales and the octatonic scale.

    If you want to extend a structure to include all 12 notes and have it sound good, you’ll have to arrange the intervals so as to avoid that -9 dissonance. I’ll clue you in on the easy ones; you can stack 4ths all the way out to all 12 notes without that rub, and you can stack 5ths all the way out to 12 notes. Both of those structures have no dissonance and they ring as clear as a bell. So, how would one name these structures? The basic universal unit of measuring the distance between notes is the half-step (let’s call it “1”, like it would appear on a ruler). So stacked fourths would be called 5+5. Stacked fifths would be called 7+7. A major triad would be called 4+3, a minor triad is called 3+4, a diminished chord would be 3+3

    There are ways to extend tertiary structures in a similar manner out to twelve notes. I’m not at liberty to divulge that info, but I’ll drop a clue: you have to make a small adjustment as you go into each succeeding octave so as to avoid the dreaded -9 dissonance. In the EIS system it’s referred to as the theory of total dissonance, but it could be just as accurately described as total consonance.


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    I see... interesting.
    I am not sure about -9... the notions of consonance and dissonance are cultural...

    And I guess that on modern aural area of equal temperament and very expanded hearing of consonance it is already in use in some sense.
    Lydian chord is the simplest example maybe and it can be traced back to your 12 stack 3rds row as a partial application of it

  25. #99

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    This just dropped

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I see... interesting.
    I am not sure about -9... the notions of consonance and dissonance are cultural...

    And I guess that on modern aural area of equal temperament and very expanded hearing of consonance it is already in use in some sense.
    Lydian chord is the simplest example maybe and it can be traced back to your 12 stack 3rds row as a partial application of it
    I think that tuning temperaments are cultural, but dissonance is an objective physical reality generated by the overtone series.

    The lydian chord only goes to the second octave. However, the raised 4th degree is there so as to not create a -9 interval with the major third in the vertical structure. However, the natural 4th (11th) can be used effectively to create a vertical structure if the major third is eliminated.


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