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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    That's not the same thing as ed byrne was talking about though.


    I didn't say they were. Ed is talking about putting a third on top of a 7sus4. Maybe I'm amazed is just an unusual chord that I had never seen written like that.

    I've often thought about those kind of chords but not as tenths or what have you. More like super imposing one triad over another to see what you get. A type of polychord. Like what happens if you superimpose a Dminor over a Dmajor (D -10)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Tenths are definitely use in voicings, but chords aren't generally notated as A-10 [although I would take this to mean an A-7 with the 3rd on top]. Just as chords with 5ths on top of upper extensions aren't notated as G12, despite the face that some arrangers actually treat the natural 12th as a kind of upper extension.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    I didn't say they were. Ed is talking about putting a third on top of a 7sus4. Maybe I'm amazed is just an unusual chord that I had never seen written like that.
    Sorry - point taken.

  5. #29
    My old Hal Leonard Incredible Chord Finder from high school has no 7#9's. They're all 7-10's. Have they changed this in the newer editions?

    7#9 is listed in the front as an "alternate symbol". I guess 7#9 has just solidified over the years as the standard name?

  6. #30
    Nuff Said Guest
    Interesting thread
    Last edited by Nuff Said; 11-21-2011 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Interesting thread

  7. #31
    A lot of this discussion about chord voicing seems to imply that you would, for some reason, account for every note in the voicing by naming it.

    A C710, for example, is naming a note which is already in the chord. You could voice that 3rd anywhere in the chord and it's still a 3rd. So you don't name it as a 10th.

    However, C7b10 (usually named C7#9) provides information about additional pitches in the chord. The chord already contains an E natural and the name of the chord tells you that there's also an Eb. That chord's name tells you about something that isn't included in the original chord symbol.

    What if a triad is voiced as follows?

    C
    E
    G

    With the C on top would you call the E a 3rd or 10th? The whole 10th, 12th, 14th thing as a way of trying to meticulously spell a chord as it is actually voiced kind of falls apart if it's not in root position anyway. You're back to figured bass. E natural is the third of a C chord regardless of where it's voiced.

  8. #32

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    Old thread, I know, but I've been fighting with a chord name which led me here. No reason to start a new thread. Here goes:

    Jazz top hit from the '60s; A chord really critical for the song is a C9 with an added major 7 on top. Like so often in jazz we have a dissonant chord. The C9 implies there's a minor 7 in the chord, by adding the 14th note, a major 7, we get tension.

    It's very common that chords contain dissonant intervals of one semi step (+/-5 or #/b 9 etc) or even a minor and a major 3rd in the same chord.

    Now, -why can't we have both a minor and a major seven in the same chord? Sure, we can, but there's actually no support for a proper name.

    I will call this chord C9add14. It's just so much easier for everyone to understand the intension in the context of the song.

    I could call it G6add9+/C or Em7add11+/C or A#6add9-/5-/C or Bm7Madd11/5+/C or even Bm7M11/5+/9-.
    Those names would all be theoretically correct and hopelessly impossible to figure out.
    But C9add14, how incorrect it may be, tells us exactly what this is about and you can read it on the fly.
    Break the rules, please.

  9. #33

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    Who knew theory threads can be so funny!

    The funniest thing is though... the OP question comes from allegedly a guitar teacher!

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Jazz top hit from the '60s; A chord really critical for the song is a C9 with an added major 7 on top. Like so often in jazz we have a dissonant chord. The C9 implies there's a minor 7 in the chord, by adding the 14th note, a major 7, we get tension.
    Which tune are you referring to?

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Old thread, I know, but I've been fighting with a chord name which led me here. No reason to start a new thread. Here goes:

    Jazz top hit from the '60s; A chord really critical for the song is a C9 with an added major 7 on top. Like so often in jazz we have a dissonant chord. The C9 implies there's a minor 7 in the chord, by adding the 14th note, a major 7, we get tension.

    It's very common that chords contain dissonant intervals of one semi step (+/-5 or #/b 9 etc) or even a minor and a major 3rd in the same chord.

    Now, -why can't we have both a minor and a major seven in the same chord? Sure, we can, but there's actually no support for a proper name.

    I will call this chord C9add14. It's just so much easier for everyone to understand the intension in the context of the song.

    I could call it G6add9+/C or Em7add11+/C or A#6add9-/5-/C or Bm7Madd11/5+/C or even Bm7M11/5+/9-.
    Those names would all be theoretically correct and hopelessly impossible to figure out.
    But C9add14, how incorrect it may be, tells us exactly what this is about and you can read it on the fly.
    Break the rules, please.
    Yea, what tune? maj7 and m7 in the same chord really sound like crap. Even for a horror movie soundtrack!

  12. #36

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    Same question for me, I'm skeptical. Also, a recording of the tune would be helpful.

  13. #37

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  14. #38

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    Bbdim7add12: 675666

  15. #39

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    Why no 8th, 10th, 12th, & 14th chords?
    Because we've got quite enough already, thank you.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Thanks! Yeah, that's the chord, the exact finger setting!

    The song is "Don't Go To Strangers" by Dave Mann and Arthur Kent. Vocals by Etta Jones. (Rufus & Chaka Khan has made a good recording too.)

    Is this common notation? (I think C9add14 is better)

  17. #41

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    Do you mean the 2nd bar? The first bar is G. Then bar 2 is a C7 chord but Etta Jones starts the phrase singing a very brief B note, dropping immediately down to F# then G. (The B is on the word ‘to’ in ‘to the stars above’).

    If so I would just regard it as a C7 chord. The melody just happens to have a momentary B note in it, which is a bit odd, but sounds ok because she only sings it for a fraction of a second.

    Last edited by grahambop; 01-17-2019 at 06:41 PM.

  18. #42

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    The only lead sheets I can find online don’t even have that melody note, the melody does not go up like that. They are more like what Houston Person plays here. Maybe Etta just added that note herself.


  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Maybe Etta just added that note herself.
    She was still in major, I reckon. That's the thing with sung notes, they linger. Also, listen closely, she goes up to the D too.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Do you mean the 2nd bar? The first bar is G. Then bar 2 is a C7 chord but Etta Jones starts the phrase singing a very brief B note, dropping immediately down to F# then G. (The B is on the word ‘to’ in ‘to the stars above’).

    If so I would just regard it as a C7 chord. The melody just happens to have a momentary B note in it, which is a bit odd, but sounds ok because she only sings it for a fraction of a second.

    "Build your dreams to the stars above"

    "Play with fire, till your fingers burn"

    "Make your mark, for your friends to see"

    The lead is a B-note (a major seven) and essential in the context.
    The chord is a C9 (not a C7) and equally essential.

    The band plays C9, the singer/lead instrument plays a B. Absolutely gorgeous in this context.

    I've made a transcription for solo guitar, where I play this chord as an arpeggio starting with the root and where every note is sustained into a "C9add14".

    For any other practical purpose I would just tell the band to play C9 (which every so often is simplified as C7)

  21. #45

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    Well it will sound better as an arpeggio that’s for sure, less of an obvious clash. Played as a full chord I think it sounds terrible!

    I guess if you want to play it exactly as Etta Jones sang it, you need it. However it was not in the original melody as composed (not surprisingly).

    Why no 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th chords?-88bdc23f-deb7-47a4-9d66-49ed22703738-jpg

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Well it will sound better as an arpeggio that’s for sure, less of an obvious clash. Played as a full chord I think it sounds terrible!

    I guess if you want to play it exactly as Etta Jones sang it, you need it. However it was not in the original melody as composed (not surprisingly).
    Well, Etta Jones' version is the original recording and it doesn't sound terrible to me. It was an overnight sensation and was introduced in the Grammy Hall of fame in 2008. (The score you provided is something else).
    Etta Jones was an incredible Blues vocalist and Blues does not easily fit into the rules of standard notation and chord nomenclature.
    Anyway, thanks for your input.

    ***
    By all means feel free to pretend that this chord doesn't exist or tell the world to avoid it (because you don't like it or you prefer to call it Em7add11+/C). I shall call it C9add14 and whenever you see it you'll know the intention and as always in Jazz are free to interpret it in anyway you like.

  23. #47

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    No problem, it’s an interesting question and example. I didn’t say the chord doesn’t exist or forbid anyone from using it. I even posted another name for it. I just don’t like the sound of it when played as a full chord on the guitar.

    But it’s probably easier for a singer like Etta to make it work, there’s a lot more separation between the voice and the piano. Actually I thought it was intriguing that Houston Person’s version was meant as a tribute to Etta, but he did not play that note, seemed like he just followed the original sheet music.

    Of course a chord is simply a combination of any 2 or more notes. I’ve no idea how some of Cecil Taylor’s chords would be named!

  24. #48
    Chord symbols serve a very particular function. It's a shorthand indication which is open to some interpretation as to specific voicing. If you want a very specific voicing, it's probably not the best way to indicate it.

    Musicians can read a chord symbol at a glance and play any number of non-specificed voicings to interpret chord symbol. There's a point at which it's not a SHORTCUT anymore, and the actual "shortcut" is to simply notate a very specific voicing or notate as a polychord chord symbol etc, ....assuming other musicians will be reading as well of course...

    Anything works for personal use...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-18-2019 at 01:08 PM.

  25. #49

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    Singers f@ck up all the time. What's the rumpus Tom?

  26. #50

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    Ted Greene sometimes called a dominant 7sus chord with an added major 3rd on top as a Dominant 17th chord.
    For C17:
    1, 5, b7, 11, (9), (13), 17 (3rd must be above the 11th).

    A common fingering: C, G, Bb, F, G (or A), E.