Bebop Scales and their creation

[zutty]

[QUOTE=christianm77;522940]We appear to be talking past one another
I have to say that the funny arpeggios that are giving you cause for concern sound good to me. For, example, the maj7 on the b7 - b7 2 4 6 - of the dominant scale is classic Parker
I still think you are a bit confused. QUOTE]

I think you are confused.
I did not set out to say anything about Barry Harris. I adore the man and his teaching/humanity. I never said anything about that major seventh arpeggio on the flat seven of the bebop dominant scale. (except that it starts on a "chord tone" and ends on a "non-chord tone").

the only point I suggested is that the use of "arpeggios" to get from a "chord tone" to a "non-chord tone" requires the movement from a "chord tone" to a "non-chord tone". heavy thought eh!! I also encourage the use of any notes what so ever in between.

[JonR]

It could be. It's not the way Barry teaches it, from my experience. Again I've only been to a few BH masterclasses so it's possible I am talking out of my bottom, but there was always a sharp distinction between the two.

Although there is a difference with the dom7-dim scale:

1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 7 1

from the dominant bebop scale (David Baker style):

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 1

Yes, I was only really thinking of the 1 2 3 4 5 #5/b6 6 7 scale.

[christianm77]

[QUOTE=zutty;522948]

We appear to be talking past one another
I have to say that the funny arpeggios that are giving you cause for concern sound good to me. For, example, the maj7 on the b7 - b7 2 4 6 - of the dominant scale is classic Parker
I still think you are a bit confused. QUOTE]

I think you are confused.
I did not set out to say anything about Barry Harris. I adore the man and his teaching/humanity. I never said anything about that major seventh arpeggio on the flat seven of the bebop dominant scale. (except that it starts on a "chord tone" and ends on a "non-chord tone").

the only point I suggested is that the use of "arpeggios" to get from a "chord tone" to a "non-chord tone" requires the movement from a "chord tone" to a "non-chord tone". heavy thought eh!! I also encourage the use of any notes what so ever in between.

I think I appreciate the point. It is a bit of a funny one, somewhat inelegant in a way. I.e.:

5 7 2 4 (non ct) --> 3 (ct)
As opposed to
1 3 5 7 (ct) --> 6 (non ct)

So it requires a work around - any of the ones suggested ought to do it.

But I think if you used an 8 note scale here, it would be a different sound. The arps are clearly based on 7 note scales, hence the 'jumping two notes of the bebop scale' effect. It's not a self consistent system, but I don't think it needs to be.

Anyway I've seen a few things like this out there.

Like I say I don't know Sheryl's teaching on the matter. The BH stuff should cover the same ground, albeit in a slightly different way.

[christianm77]

I worked with the David Baker books a bunch of years ago, and while I found them helpful, I also found that you can stick chromatic passing tones almost anywhere depending on what you're playing, so, for example, if you're playing on a dominant chord, the "non-diatonic" tone doesn't have to be the major seventh. Once you internalize some of the rhythms, you get a sense for where a chromatic note should be (or, at least for me, I can hear where the chord tone should be, and throw in a chromatic to get it to land in the right place). It turns out to be less of a scale to memorize than a feel to internalize. This frees you up a little because you realize you're not locked into one linear pattern. If you're moving from the 7th to the root, say, and you want that root to land on the downbeat, then yeah, you can use that major seventh on the upbeat of the 4, OR, you could use the 2 or the b2, or even a non-adjacent note. It's really the rhythm that's important there.

But in another situation, you might be wanting to land on the 5, in which case your chromatic note might be the #4 or the #5.

It's a valuable concept, but where I think people go wrong is thinking of it as a scalar/melodic/harmonic kind of thing rather than what it is, which is a rhythmic thing. (Which, of course, brings up the whole thing about why we tend to focus on harmony at the expense of rhythm - which is a whole other discussion in itself.)

Well said! It does start to become intuitive.

Bridging from one chord to the next also requires a slightly different approach - e.g.

G7 ---> Cmaj7

G F# F E D C B A | G
As opposed to:
F E D C B A G F | E

Discuss! :-)

[jordanklemons]

Wow...this thread blew up since I last checked it! Hahaha...

I honestly haven't read all the more recent responses...just wanted to add a little to the mix based on a Bird transcription I was checking out earlier. Specifically a little 2 beat line he used over C-7.

It starts the beginning of the measure with an 8th rest on beat 1. On the & of beat 1 he plays an E natural note, the major 3rd of the C-7 chord (which obviously is not 'supposed to' have a major 3rd in it as it's a minor chord). Immediately following the E natural note, on beats 2, & of 2, and 3...he plays (respectively) C#-D-Eb.


C-7
1---&-2--&-3
(r)-E-C#-D-Eb

Effectively, he was aiming for the Eb note, the minor 3rd of the chord. And he was using the note a half step above it and the 2 notes chromatically underneath it to create tension that resolved to the Eb on beat 3 which is a nice strong beat for chord tones. I doubt that he was thinking about this as a 'bebop scale' that he had practice over and over with the goal of playing it note for note the same way like a riff in many different instances. It seems to me like he just knew Eb was a strong chord tone and that if he rhythmically phrased his line to land on that Eb note at the right time, it would sound hip. I think after that fact we turn around and call this a bebop scale and try and conceptualize it into something tangible like that so that we can study it, talk about it, explain it to others, etc. But ultimately, no matter how we each individually work on this, the important thing is to internalize the rhythmic hierarchy of 8th notes, to understand which notes are the most desired, and to learn how to naturally phrase our lines to connect those two ideas...rhythmic hierarchy with harmonic hierarchy. But frankly, I wouldn't call this a bebop thing. I mean...this stuff has been going on at least since Bach. Possibly before him. Though Bach is the furthest back I've looked and found this.

I once heard a very young pre-teen bass player interested in jazz ask a super talented, adult, professional jazz bassist how to walk bass lines. Her answer. Go study Bach. Hahahahaha...I lost it.