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Yes, I think we could do with more bebop concepts or devices such as the Sheryl Bailey one. Anyone got any to share?
Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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11-20-2011 07:16 AM
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Yeah, I have read many discussions on this subject. It is cool putting names on these different bebop approach's, in that it lets you identify quickly with its given source. Dorian bebop, phrygian, dom etc.. But in real time playing it is much easier to relate to the major scale with passing tones or a minor template with passing tones.
When wood shedding I look at the origins of the impled bebop line and extend them out all over the neck as well as play them in 3rds, 4ths, etc.. This builds up good muscle memory and makes playing with templates more effective in that I have many more practiced ideas to draw from. So in the end, as usual, I learn the stuff from as many approach's as possible then move on.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 11-21-2011 at 05:54 PM.
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That is infinitely more useful that learning to play bebop scales. Originally Posted by JohnW400
It is easy to identify players that play a lot of bebop scales, because when you listen to them you hear, "Chord tone, Chord tone, Chord tone, oh shit I don't know what to play! chromatic, chromatic, chromatic, whew I'm back on another chord tone."
If you are trying to learn bebop your best bet is working on arpeggios, 1-7, 3-9, using guide tones over chord changes, and working on the concept that JohnW400 outlined above.
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Furthermore, if you are a developing player in this day and age, you will face different challenges than folks faced 30 years ago. 30 years ago, cats would work on whatever material they could get their hands on, if they found a book of chords they'd wear it out, if they found a real book they'd start learning the tunes, a book of Sor etudes, then the same. There is a story that when the Beatles had first gotten together (Pre-Hamburg), John and Paul drove to the other side of Liverpool to meet a guy who knew how to play a B7 chord. Now so much information is so accessible, and every guitar player in the world seems to have at least three or four books published and a few hundred youtube videos.
The challenge that developing guitar players face now, is focusing in on what to practice. Do I use Berklee Fingerings, Jimmy Bruno Fingerings, or the CAGED system? Who the hell cares, just do it!
When it comes to bebop you have.
Arpeggios,
Guide Tones,
Tritone substitutions,
Minor 3rd substitutions,
Altered Scales,
Diminished Sclaes,
Whole Tone Scales...
The list goes on and on. With all of that to work on, how much time do you really want to spend on, "Hey play chromatics until you wander upon a chord tone!"
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I was only listing the ones Mark Levine listed. I realise others exist - or at least have been invented by other theorists Originally Posted by whatswisdom
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Mark Elf has some good lines on dom7ths on his teaching site. I drop by there from time to time because he is all about learning lines to get the language. It has worked wonders for me in combination with Jimmy Brunos teaching concepts. I am currently studying some of Marks lines on F7 and I find it is a great way to get direct musical ideas. He uses the passing tone naturally and I am able to take it straight into music instead of just running up and down scales all day. I can't even practice running up and down scales like that anymore. It takes me a practice session or two to get the visual of the scale down - and then I try to make music from it as soon as I've got the "picture" on the guitar. Everything you practice might come out when you improvise. I don't want to be playing scale runs when I improvise. Whenever I practice technique it has got to be something that I would actually play on a tune.
Thats how the cats learned to play back in the day, and no matter if people stick a "modern" label to their approach and try to make you run up and down 7 modes of three different scales all day, nothing can ever replace the efficiency of practicing what you ought to play in a real situation in my opinion.
I know some of the really good players like Rosenwinkel and Kreisberg come from the more academic side of knowing 300 scales and I have a great respect for people pushing through with all that. Those guys can really play. But for people like me who struggle with motivation at times, I think practicing lines will pay off more in the long run. If your mind is not into it, you won't learn a thing. That's the good thing about different approaches, because people are different in how they learn. I know cats who love to shed their scales and are excellent players. It works for them. Not for me.
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Here here, well said! Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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There is some confusion for a lot of players about what Bebop Scales are and how they are used... actually it seems like most players who haven't actually studied the concept don't understand it...
It is not a scale in usual sense that we talk about scales, it's really a method for learning to play bebop, and actually I think David Baker should have used a different name for the concept....
(Remember, his books were called "How to Play Bebop" not "How to play Bebop Scales".)
The bebop scale concept might be best understood as an outline, similar to Bert Ligon's concept of outlines, except Baker's version is intended as a method to teach players to start playing those long, flowing 8th note/16th note bebop lines a la Parker, Brown, etc. It's almost like training wheels, that gradually gets replaced with other vocabulary as the player starts getting the experience under their fingers.
Here's how it works...
It starts by simply learning to play the "scale", and getting comfortable with it under your fingers (I'm talking about the "dominant bebop scale: i.e. Mixolydian with added passing natural 7th). Start by just running the scale, in different positions on the neck, using different shifts, starting on different chord tones, ascending, descending, changing directions, etc. Just getting comfortable playing it.
Then the next step, is to start inserting small phrases that deflect the line when you land on a chord tone... for example, a piece of vocab might be phrase like 5 4 2 b3 3, (or maybe b7 2 #4 6 5). You would run the scale and when you get to the 5th (or b7), you would play that phrase and then continue on with the scale in either direction. And maybe play the phrase again when you hit the next octave.
The real fun starts when you start practicing it over dominant cycles, as opposed just over the static chord. Similar to the above, you would want to develop vocab that connects chord changes with resolutions chord tones, and practice the concept over cycles that move through all 12 keys, and obviously over tunes as well.
Gradually you'd want to start building up a working vocabulary like this (from transcription, Baker's book, other lick books, the Omnibook, etc.) until you're basically weaned off the "bebop scale" (or just becomes ingrained and you stop thinking about it).
This is just a summary of how I've learned to approach it, from the Baker books and other resources... and obviously there is more to the concept I didn't bother mentioning... techniques for starting on non-chord tones, ending phrases, basslines, etc. It is a very effective, authentic method for practicing bebop.
Of course this is a method for intermediate players to get started with bebop, advanced players who can already really play may have no use for a method like this.
Edit: Sorry for Necro post
Last edited by RyanM; 08-30-2012 at 03:44 AM.
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Can you cite those solos that use the Bebop Dominant scale? Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Ryan- Nice explanation!!! Finally someone gives me an understandable path to follow. I am going to get a lot of mileage out of your response---Thanks
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Wow, this old thread of mine is still alive? I'm pretty surprised. It's cool to read about the subject from my younger self's point of view. I was quite enthusiastic in the post. I still remember that gig I came home from, too. I've got recordings of the band. That was right around the time when I was starting to "get it".
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I love this discussion. I am a professional bassist, and I do not think in terms of scales but chords and the "sound" I am going for. I have learned to recognize by the sound of a line what is going on - i.e. a blues line, pentatonic, major feel minor feel etc. In the process of learning the sounds I learned the scales as a tool to get the overall sound. When I wanted to really get the "sound" of a dominant chord, I played dominant arpeggios and I also found myself doing what many called the Mixolydian scale. In the process of years of playing I have come to realize that different people process information differently. Some musicians I know think horizontally, some think vertically. I will play a line and someone will say "that's a cool application of the Dorian mode" while I was thinking in terms of an Am9 arpeggio with a couple of passing tones...
I am also a music teacher and I used to get a big head of steam up about getting my students to think chordally and not in scales. But as I have said, I sometimes get students who learn differently. I still teach them to know the sound of major, minor, diminished, dominant etc. For some, the path to that is through major, minor, diminished or dominant 7 scales, or any other of the million scales out there. I tell them that every bit of music theory they will learn or be exposed to is a result of someone analyzing what some genius player was doing in order to hopefully understand what that genius player was doing. In other words, theory FOLLOWS performance. Great players don't play according to theory... they play. period. Those of us mortals who want to find a way to wrap our brains around what we just heard resort to theory to explain it and then perhaps to develop a roadmap so we might play what they played.
All that being said... scales, chords... whatever. If it makes you play, if it inspires you to play more and play better, go for it. I prefer the chord approach - but that's simply the voice of a 57 year old bassist doing what he knows. But I have brilliant students who do the scale thing. it's all good. It's all notes.
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the jerry bergonzi book "jazz line" is about the bebopscale.
Manuel Hobi - Jazz Gitarre
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these are all the possible combinations of 8 notes within an octave that begin on C.
{C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,A} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G,G#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G,A}
{C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G#,A} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,G#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F,A,B}
{C,C#,D,D#,E,F,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G,G#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G,A} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G#,A} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G#,A#}
{C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,G#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,F#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G,G#,A} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G,G#,B}
{C,C#,D,D#,E,G,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,E,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G,G#} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G,A} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G#,A} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G#,A#}{C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,G#,B}
{C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,F#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G,G#,A} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G,A,A#}
{C,C#,D,D#,F,G,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F#,G,G#,A}
{C,C#,D,D#,F#,G,G#,A#}{C,C#,D,D#,F#,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F#,G,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,F#,G,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F#,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,F#,G#,A,A#}{C,C#,D,D#,F#,G#,A,B}
{C,C#,D,D#,F#,G#,A#,B}{C,C#,D,D#,F#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,D#,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,D#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,G,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,D#,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G,G#} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G,A} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G#,A} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,G#,B}
{C,C#,D,E,F,F#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,A,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,F#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,G,G#,A} {C,C#,D,E,F,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,G,A,A#}
{C,C#,D,E,F,G,A,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G,G#,A}
{C,C#,D,E,F#,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G,A,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G,A,B} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,E,F#,G#,A,B}
{C,C#,D,E,F#,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,F#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,E,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,E,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,G,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,E,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D,F,F#,G,G#,A} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G,A,A#} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G,A,B} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G#,A,A#}
{C,C#,D,F,F#,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,F,F#,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F,F#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,F,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,F,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F,G,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D,F,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D,F#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G,A} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G,A#} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A#}{C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,G#,B}
{C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,A,A#} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,A,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,F#,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G,G#,A} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G,A,A#}
{C,C#,D#,E,F,G,A,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A}
{C,C#,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A#}{C,C#,D#,E,F#,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F#,G,A,A#} {C,C#,D#,E,F#,G,A,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F#,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#}{C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,B}
{C,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,B}{C,C#,D#,E,F#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D#,E,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D#,E,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,G,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,E,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A} {C,C#,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A#}{C,C#,D#,F,F#,G,G#,B} {C,C#,D#,F,F#,G,A,A#} {C,C#,D#,F,F#,G,A,B} {C,C#,D#,F,F#,G,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,F,F#,G#,A,A#}
{C,C#,D#,F,F#,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D#,F,F#,G#,A#,B}{C,C#,D#,F,F#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,F,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,D#,F,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D#,F,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,F,G,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,F,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,D#,F#,G,G#,A,A#}{C,C#,D#,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,D#,F#,G,G#,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,F#,G,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,F#,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,D#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A#} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G,G#,B} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G,A,A#} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G,A,B} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G#,A,A#}
{C,C#,E,F,F#,G#,A,B} {C,C#,E,F,F#,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F,F#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,E,F,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,E,F,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F,G,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,E,F,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,E,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,E,F#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,C#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,E,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,C#,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,C#,F,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,C#,F,F#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,C#,F,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,C#,F,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,F,G,G#,A,A#,B} {C,C#,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,A} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,G#,B}
{C,D,D#,E,F,F#,A,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,A,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,F#,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,G,G#,A} {C,D,D#,E,F,G,G#,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F,G,G#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,G,A,A#}
{C,D,D#,E,F,G,A,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,G,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,G#,A,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F,G#,A,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,G#,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A}
{C,D,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A#}{C,D,D#,E,F#,G,G#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F#,G,A,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F#,G,A,B} {C,D,D#,E,F#,G,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#} {C,D,D#,E,F#,G#,A,B}
{C,D,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,B}{C,D,D#,E,F#,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,G,G#,A,A#} {C,D,D#,E,G,G#,A,B} {C,D,D#,E,G,G#,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,G,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,E,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,D,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A} {C,D,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A#}{C,D,D#,F,F#,G,G#,B} {C,D,D#,F,F#,G,A,A#} {C,D,D#,F,F#,G,A,B} {C,D,D#,F,F#,G,A#,B} {C,D,D#,F,F#,G#,A,A#}
{C,D,D#,F,F#,G#,A,B} {C,D,D#,F,F#,G#,A#,B}{C,D,D#,F,F#,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,F,G,G#,A,A#} {C,D,D#,F,G,G#,A,B} {C,D,D#,F,G,G#,A#,B} {C,D,D#,F,G,A,A#,B}
{C,D,D#,F,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,F#,G,G#,A,A#}{C,D,D#,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,D,D#,F#,G,G#,A#,B}{C,D,D#,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D,D#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,D,E,F,F#,G,G#,A} {C,D,E,F,F#,G,G#,A#} {C,D,E,F,F#,G,G#,B} {C,D,E,F,F#,G,A,A#} {C,D,E,F,F#,G,A,B} {C,D,E,F,F#,G,A#,B} {C,D,E,F,F#,G#,A,A#}
{C,D,E,F,F#,G#,A,B} {C,D,E,F,F#,G#,A#,B} {C,D,E,F,F#,A,A#,B} {C,D,E,F,G,G#,A,A#} {C,D,E,F,G,G#,A,B} {C,D,E,F,G,G#,A#,B} {C,D,E,F,G,A,A#,B}
{C,D,E,F,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D,E,F#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,D,E,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,D,E,F#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,D,E,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,D,E,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D,E,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,D,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,D,F,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,D,F,F#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,D,F,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,D,F,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D,F,G,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A} {C,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A#}{C,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,B} {C,D#,E,F,F#,G,A,A#} {C,D#,E,F,F#,G,A,B} {C,D#,E,F,F#,G,A#,B} {C,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A,A#}
{C,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A,B} {C,D#,E,F,F#,G#,A#,B}{C,D#,E,F,F#,A,A#,B} {C,D#,E,F,G,G#,A,A#} {C,D#,E,F,G,G#,A,B} {C,D#,E,F,G,G#,A#,B} {C,D#,E,F,G,A,A#,B}
{C,D#,E,F,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A,A#}{C,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,D#,E,F#,G,G#,A#,B}{C,D#,E,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,D#,E,F#,G#,A,A#,B}{C,D#,E,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#}{C,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,D#,F,F#,G,G#,A#,B}{C,D#,F,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,D#,F,F#,G#,A,A#,B}{C,D#,F,G,G#,A,A#,B} {C,D#,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#} {C,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,B} {C,E,F,F#,G,G#,A#,B} {C,E,F,F#,G,A,A#,B} {C,E,F,F#,G#,A,A#,B} {C,E,F,G,G#,A,A#,B} {C,E,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
{C,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B}
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Well that settles it.
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Okay now what do you do with it? Originally Posted by hodge12
Bebop scale is about rhythm and setting up what notes land on strong beats, it not about just add a note to scale.
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these are not your average bebop scales obviously, but everyone already knows those anyway.
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if you go to a Barry Harris workshop or look at any of his instructional material, you'll see that "bebop" scales are a huge part of his teaching
but in his system there is no one "bebop" scale. he inserts the chromatic passing tones wherever he wants. sometimes his scales are 8 notes, sometimes they're 9 or 10 depending on how he constructs his line.
regardless of how they're constructed, his lines always end on a chord tone on a strong beat.
(although it should be noted that even a cursory glance at Bird, Bud, or Dizzy's playing will reveal that they often end lines on non-chord tones for color)
i understand both sides on this "bebop" scale debate. and it is true that you can look long and hard for an example of Charlie Parker playing a major scale, octave to octave, with a passing note between the 6th and 5th, and not find it
but can you find examples of scalar passages with chromatic notes in his playing? if you can't, you're not looking
they key to playing bebop lines, in my humble opinion, lies in the ability to hear where a line is going and to be able to construct your lines accordingly so that they fit rhythmically
the bebop scales is one way to do this, albeit a fairly mechanical one. but it should not be a crutch in one's playing to avoid the real work, which is primarily not a technical or theoretical task, but an aural one.
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Can you design a T-Shirt? I want this as logo. (Condensed, of course Originally Posted by hodge12
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whatever you do you don't wanna play a bebop scale on a country gig. you could lose your union card.
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Everyone looks at things differently and I've run into that recently in some studying. This point of view is that it's not really a scale the Bebopper were doing it was approach notes, because for them nailing chord tones on the beat was important. That there are about twelve different approach note patterns they used single note above and below, combination of single and two notes above and below, on to three note and four note approach note patterns.
So can be looked at as Bebop scale with added note to put chord tones on strong beats, and those I see two talked about depending on if the line starts on a chord tone or non-chord tone. Or can look at it as approach note patterns again to put chord tones on strong beats. To me two ways to towards same result or two different tools for your improv toolbox.
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I've been doofing around a lot with the Barry Harris added note scale stuff (same sort of thing). I like it, it's important I think to practice lots of different variations through different changes to get flexible, and start to feel and hear where the chromatics should come to outline the changes etc.
BH is like the antithesis to what I've worked on harmonically over the past couple of years - which has mostly been arpeggios with neighbour tone decorations - very traditional. Works great!
On the other hand, BH is adamant everything comes from scales.
And there's other viewpoints too - Mike Longo, for example, says it's all voice leading. Hal Galper says it's all about pick ups into the beat.
These viewpoints are all in fact completely valid (of course!), and it can be fun to switch into a very different approach to shake things up. In fact they are all different ways up the same mountain.
I was also interested in the very traditional stepwise use of scales in bebop music, and how BH's thinking can be used to understand that.
David Baker's how to play Bebop vol 1 book contains some good practice suggestions which should keep you going for several lifetimes :-).
Hal Galper's Forward Motion helped me understand this type of thing from a very different vantage point.Last edited by christianm77; 04-18-2015 at 03:00 AM.
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I've found you need to master the diatonic neighbour tones to make this really sound good - lower neighbour tones are usually chromatic, uppers are by default diatonic to the key, for example. This work is a bit of a shlep on guitar, while the chromatics are much more natural. It is perfectly possible to do this by ear, but you do need to do it if you want to be a good old school harmonic player. Originally Posted by docbop
Barry Harris points out that a Dm7 in C is a different animal to a Dm7 in Bb. If you are decorating the latter, you want to pick notes to diatonic to Bb. This gives you some interesting 'scale/modes' if you alter the chords - Dm7 into D7, say, but that's not where the thinking is coming from - they're just notes in the key. You can then add in your bebop added notes to keep everything on the beat.
However - there are interesting exceptions - for example, cycle of 4th progressions (e.g. Bridge of Rhythm Changes), where it seems de rigeur to construct a mixolydian/dominant scale over each dom 7 chord. This seems to have a been a thing quite early on - take the melody of Sweet Georgia Brown, for example.
TL;DR you need to understand the chromatic (easy!) and diatonic (more of a pain on guitar) Neighbour Tones to get good at enclosures etc, so really it does come back to scales on some level.
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The clearest example of a major bebop scale I can think of is the first phrase of Donna Lee, which can be understood as a BH added note scale with a pivot in an ascending dim7. Originally Posted by dasein
'can' is the operative word.
BH's theory represents a complete understanding of the construction of Parkeresque bebop melodies - which is why it's worth looking at - but of course we have little idea how Bird really arrived at his music. So much of what's interesting about Parker's music is in the rhythmic accents.
Interestingly, in many ways I find Bird's music at odds with the 'academic bebop' stuff I've come into contact with - lots of blues, chord/NT style lines, little use of bebop scale or sequenced ii-V phrases, extensions on tonic chords reserved for special effect - often the end of phrases for a playful and mischievous effect.
As I've mostly studied Bird, my understanding of bop comes from him. There seem to be more sequenced phrases in Dizzy's heads though.
I'm sure if I looked at more Bud or Brownie, my understanding would be slightly different.Last edited by christianm77; 04-18-2015 at 03:37 AM.
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Jazz emerged from musicians who were culturally connected to learning music through an oral tradition where improvisation and variation were the norm. Even when reading music, it wasn't approached as a literal frozen artifact,
document of the only story to be told.
Much of the after the fact analysis of bebop, such as "nailing chord tones on the beat", "adding chromatics to chord tones" although based on some observable events in the music and might indeed teach some useful lessons in a players development, don't accurately reflect the conscious thinking of the original creators of this music.
It is my best guess, that what went down was variation and ornamentation of melody that became over time more elaborate and further afield from the source material as the notion of taking a solo evolved in jazz.
I am not a historian, but I would love to see some actual quotes from the originators detailing their thinking on their playing details. What I've observed in my reading is a strong mentor system and the detailed study of inspirational players with a commitment to idea of an original voice. I would love to be pointed towards some quotes to support all these contentions of what bebop and other historical jazz artists were thinking. Phil Schaap, are you out there?
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