melodic minor question

[princeplanet]

You hear a lot of talk about how important modes of MM are and the alt scale in particular, but can anyone point out players, say, pre '65 that got great mileage out of this scale? Specific examples would be great. In transcribing, I often come upon a PC that can be interpreted as having an alt scale origin, but there always seems to be other interpretations, ie, combining whole and dim scales, TT sub, chromatic enclosure or embellishment etc.

Is it like how the boppers never thought of bebop scales but were analyzsed by others to be playing them? There was a discussion on a sax forum where this seemed to be the consensus. Any thoughts? Oh, and did anyone ever conceive lines using an alt "bebop" scale (#7)? Or are these all just academic abstractions?

[brwnhornet59]

Reg, what happened to you???

[CigaretteVodka]

Once you teach your ears to hear MM.

Whew, most of this thread is way over my head, but I think doing what you recommend in the sentence above is something I might do well to start with.

What's a good way to begin teaching my ears to hear MM? Like maybe create a ii-V(alt)-I vamp in Band-In-A-Box and solo with MM over the V(alt) or the ii-V(alt)?

[brwnhornet59]

That's a start. But also try a ii V i. Resolve the one chord to a -M7 chord.

If you do this with the modes of MM you can hear it well indeed.
D-7/G7b13/C-M7

or D-7b5/G7alt/C-M7

The latter progression draws from HM, but will give you interesting results as well. The Ab can be fun.

[JonnyPac]

Whew, most of this thread is way over my head, but I think doing what you recommend in the sentence above is something I might do well to start with.

What's a good way to begin teaching my ears to hear MM? Like maybe create a ii-V(alt)-I vamp in Band-In-A-Box and solo with MM over the V(alt) or the ii-V(alt)?

It is good. Hearing is everything. Keep it simple at first- do a modal jam over m(maj7) chord with the scale and get your bearings. Next fit it into a simple progression like C | Fm | and use F MM over the Fm chord. Also look for real examples in jazz (or even pop). Nica's Dream is an obvious choice.

Modes of the MM can be trickier. The second easiest to hear, IMO, is Lydian Dominant (the 4th mode). Again, jam out on it as a vamp. Next try it like this C |Bb7#11 | Note the same F MM was used. This will be common.

Am | E7alt is another example of F MM used in C/Am progressions.

Hope that helps, though I am no Reg.

[CigaretteVodka]

That's a start. But also try a ii V i. Resolve the one chord to a -M7 chord.

If you do this with the modes of MM you can hear it well indeed.
D-7/G7b13/C-M7

or D-7b5/G7alt/C-M7

The latter progression draws from HM, but will give you interesting results as well. The Ab can be fun.

I see, do vamps in minor too. Cool.

[CigaretteVodka]

It is good. Hearing is everything. Keep it simple at first- do a modal jam over m(maj7) chord with the scale and get your bearings. Next fit it into a simple progression like C | Fm | and use F MM over the Fm chord. Also look for real examples in jazz (or even pop). Nica's Dream is an obvious choice.

Modes of the MM can be trickier. The second easiest to hear, IMO, is Lydian Dominant (the 4th mode). Again, jam out on it as a vamp. Next try it like this C |Bb7#11 | Note the same F MM was used. This will be common.

Am | E7alt is another example of F MM used in C/Am progressions.

Hope that helps, though I am no Reg.

Good suggestions. Yes, I've done vamps on just a single m(maj) chord and it is pretty easy to see (hear) how MM fits perfectly. I need to go back to that for a while because it makes perfect sense to my ear.

[kenbennett]

It is good. Hearing is everything. Keep it simple at first- do a modal jam over m(maj7) chord with the scale and get your bearings. Next fit it into a simple progression like C | Fm | and use F MM over the Fm chord. Also look for real examples in jazz (or even pop). Nica's Dream is an obvious choice.

Modes of the MM can be trickier. The second easiest to hear, IMO, is Lydian Dominant (the 4th mode). Again, jam out on it as a vamp. Next try it like this C |Bb7#11 | Note the same F MM was used. This will be common.

Am | E7alt is another example of F MM used in C/Am progressions.

Hope that helps, though I am no Reg.

This is good stuff to get your ears going.

The first step for me to hear scales I'm not familiar with is to play the root on an open string letting it drone. While it sustains play the scale starting an octave up.

Play it slow enough to hear each interval against the root. Reestablish the drone from time to time.

Then I noodle around certain intervals, keeping the drone going, and finding little melodic motifs at different areas in the scale, sort of pseudo Raga style.

Find the triads within the scale, and 4ths chords. Listen to those against the root.

Now you have the nuts and bolts of the scale in your ears. Apply it to progressions, like Johnny Pac's 2-chord deals, or tunes. Use the modes to free your ears dependence on that root to hear the intervals.

Then Reg's contexts and situations and subs and subs of subs will not seem so abstract.

Melodic minor is fascinating to hear. I came to from the Diminished-wholetone mode. As a chord-scale approach, I think it helped me to hear it in context and finger it off the root of the chord. Instead of thinking like MM a half-step up over a dominant chord, I think diminished-wholetone off the root of the chord. So I think of MM, diminished-wholetone, and Lydian-dominant, for example, as three different scales, each with it's own fingering and context within the harmony. I helps me keep it straight in my ear and on the fretboard.

[CigaretteVodka]

The first step for me to hear scales I'm not familiar with is to play the root on an open string letting it drone. While it sustains play the scale starting an octave up.

Play it slow enough to hear each interval against the root. Reestablish the drone from time to time.

I just tried that ken. Wow, it's a great technique. I played around with E mel-min while I droned the my open 6th string. I got my own min-maj vamp going that way. No need to Band-In-The-Box. Sweet. Thanks.

[bako]

I just tried that ken. Wow, it's great technique. I played around with E mel-min while I droned the my open 6th string. Sweet. I got my own min-maj vamp going that way. No need to Band-In-The-Box. Sweet. Thanks.

E Melodic Minor
D Melodic Minor
C# Melodic Minor
B Melodic Minor
A Melodic Minor
G Melodic Minor
F Melodic Minor

All of these keys can be played against the open E string pedal tone.
If you like this approach, then this is enough to totally transform your sonic understanding of the inherent harmonies available from this scale.

[CigaretteVodka]

E Melodic Minor
D Melodic Minor
C# Melodic Minor
B Melodic Minor
A Melodic Minor
G Melodic Minor
F Melodic Minor

All of these keys can be played against the open E string pedal tone.
If you like this approach, then this is enough to totally transform your sonic understanding of the inherent harmonies available from this scale.

I really do like this approach. I had a blast with it on E mel-min. I'm definitely going to jump on all these when I practice tonight. 'Preciate it!

[Reg]

Reg, what happened to you???

Sorry... I get incredibly busy sometimes... sleep... what's that....
Princeplanet... liston to early Hoarce Silver, Blakey or most of the straight ahead bands of the 60's... most of them were playing with as you said, Harmonic minor with added #9, versions of Whole tone, again added notes, the natural 9th was always a problem.
When you use whole tone/Dim. again the problem is always what are you implying harmonically, worked but was difficult to use compositionally... anyway then MM solved most of the problems. Began spelling 7th degree as Dom chord (altered)... covered the blue notes
filled in many voids. Did create other problems... most solved with modal interchange and modal style harmonic theory.
MM ear training... great ideas. Playing altered II- V's is great practice. Our ears are already somewhat trained to hear basically the two versions of II- V's.
1) resolving or going to Maj.
2) resolving or going to Min.
Use of MM for similar type harmonic motion, altered II- V's is always cool... but work on II- V's using versions of II- chords going to V7#11. The basic is Dorian to Lydian b7.
Bb-7(dorian) going to Eb9#11(lydian b7).
Try and get past the method of thinking in steps to get to actual scale your playing, for example when playing altered... thinking of MM 1/2 step up.( thinking of BbMM to play Aalt.). or in my example... thinking BbMM to play Eb Lydian b7. You should be aware of all the modes...but starting with or in relationship to what your playing/hearing.
Try and start using MM as a modal interchange source. As in play a straight II- V, Dorian to mixolydian. I'm using scales names simply for complete pitch references... if you have that Chord scale hang up, simply thing of complete arpeggios, or chord tones and extensions or what ever method you like to describe complete pitch collection. Anyway, by modal interchange, substitute V7#11 or Lydianb7 for Mixo. That simple single note change, introduces a complete new source of doors to open by way of... subs, simple reharms, any approach or method you decide to imply.
As I've said, I always think horizontal and vertical as one... The Bb-7 to Eb7#11 can be played or approached...
Bb-7 ...to Eb7#11
Bb-7 ...to Bb-maj7
Eb7sus to Eb7#11 etc... almost like plug and play.
You can begin to introduce other approaches, more layers of harmonic approaches with what ever pattern of method you decide to use or imply. Pentatonics, subs, more modal interchange etc... The further you get away from original tonal or harmonic area.... the more skills required. The more difficult it becomes to have balance. The more outside influences or other aspect of influence begin to have more weight in your harmonic balance. Both theoretically and aesthetically.
Here's a sample of playing over Bb-7 to Eb7. Reg

[JonnyPac]

Cool clip, Reg.

I used to do the drone thing a lot too, guys. Not I hear the basic chord/bass note in my mind and solo from there. I use a metronome/drum machine and sometimes a loop pedal for very ambiguous harmonies (a slash cord over a slash chord, etc).

"Make friends" with every pitch collection, chord, chord-scale/mode you dig (or want to dig). It's actually a very fun process. In the last months P4 intervals have been my food- finding every way I can outline changes with them and step "outside" a wee bit.

[CigaretteVodka]

Cool clip, Reg.

+1. Very informative.

I used to do the drone thing a lot too, guys. Not I hear the basic chord/bass note in my mind and solo from there.

And the drone thing is really cool in that it forces the ear to clearly hear the intervals. Such a basic, and so important.

[kenbennett]

Good lesson, Reg. Thanks for everything you do for us.

[Reg]

Hey JP thanks... just trying to demonstrate actual playing versions of what I'm talking about. Methods of pulling from MM... there are many, and the as you said, drone thing... I like that, is great practice method to help players works on hearing MM and also help develop phrasing ideas from simple harmonic areas...how to make your lines say something. As you get better... you can drone more complicated changes and more complicated concepts etc.... to me it's always the drone thing... If your simply covering the changes with chord tones or some other method of playing "Good Notes", that's cool... but gets fairly boring quick... you know where I'm going... If you don't sound cool over a few changes... don't even bother over something complicated. But that's the next level... I'm just trying to cover a few methods of using MM. It works and functions differently as compared to changes from Major or Nat. Min. Similar to how modal concepts have different harmonic and functional governing principles... so does MM when used in jazz context.... anyway one step at a time. I'll try and post another video tonight with different approach... Reg
Thanks always... I always dig kind words... it will get better

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah Reg!! I am digging it. Interesting views of ideas that are basic in implementation yet sonically rewarding. Methodology is the key. Approaching these different harmonic structures becomes much easier with a little common sense and a good ear. I like the statement about implying the note once it is established without playing the note. Cool stuff!!!

I want to thank you as well for sharing your method of madness, as well as the video! I know your are busy, so it is even more appreciated! I am looking forward to your next approach. Very enlightening.

[Reg]

Moving on to a slightly more complex versions of using Modal interchange as source of MM on typical changes... I'll use a minor Blues tune called "Nothing Personal". Standard twelve bar minor blues... in G-, but...
I- is MM
IV- is Dorian
bVI7 is Lydianb7
V7 is Altered
Another way to see or hear these changes is to use II- V's
I- could be II- V7, using Dorian to lydb7(like last video)
IV- becomes II- V7... simply add related V7. standard Dorian to Mixo
bVI7 could have the related II-7 in front, MM to Lydb7
and V7 could also have II-7b5 added in front, Locrian to Altered.
I'm using II-V7s because it naturally creates a standard Harmonic rhythm... which will somewhat naturally help you phrase in a typical pattern.
It's almost like you have a plug and play form... You can use Modal interchange to substitute different tonal areas for each chord. Even when you make or hear lousy choices for subs... the form or pattern you've established from using II- V7s will help hold what your playing together... At least it will help. The point of this exercise is to help train your self to be aware that there's more going on besides simply playing chord tones etc... Here's a quick Vid ... Reg

[brwnhornet59]

Great!! Another concise and easy to follow set of methodologies. Every choice is a one note alteration. I like that thought as well. It is easier to see and hear quickly, when keeping that in mind. Also not playing the b9 in the chord, which is something I usually do, is interesting as well. Just play V7 alt. Again this is to keep the obviousness of the stated harmonics, understated and by doing so makes it a more hip use of the inflection. I can't wait to hear the b7 subs you referred to. Bring it please!!!

Btw, harmonic rhythm is an area I need more work on. Playing the weak side with the less stable notes is something that I hear naturally, but it is easy for me to get carried away after a few measures, and lose my awareness. I will have to set up a few melodic devices to stress this to my ear for the longer duration. Great points Reg.

[Reg]

I noticed I wrote Lydianb7 on the V7 chord of that last Min Blues in G. I changed to Altered. Which is standard choice... sorry. Reg

[brwnhornet59]

I noticed I wrote Lydianb7 on the V7 chord of that last Min Blues in G. I changed to Altered. Which is standard choice... sorry. Reg

No worries!! T/y.

[FatJeff]

Cool stuff, Reg, and great playing as usual. Hope you don't mind, but I'm 'borrowing' the basic progression for an original tune I'm writing ... been on a compositional kick recently, and need to carpe diem whenever any ideas strike. :-)

[brwnhornet59]

Don't borrow them Jeff. Steal them!!!!!!

[Reg]

There really isn't really much that's new, simply different understandings and applications.... maybe... But everything I post on this forum is for the goal of making guitarist better musicians... it's really that simple.
Borrow, steal, anyway it's works or helps... Reg

[brwnhornet59]

I am eating this stuff up Reg!!! Keep going please.