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  1. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Sight reading process is a complex of many elemets.
    If you compare with language... French has many letters that are not pronounced... it was long historical process that they got mute and if we compare with Italian the reading rules of Italian seem to be much more logical and of course easier to learn for foreigner.
    But all this seemingly illogical French mute reading is deeply involved in the language structre, there were attempts to simplify it but it leads to the point that many gramatic things become undetactable in words...
    maybe because these facts english language is considered the easiest and practical language (although brazilian portuguese is richer)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra View Post
    maybe because these facts english language is considered the easiest and practical language (although brazilian portuguese is richer)

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    English is widely spread historically that makes it practical for sure, but I would not call it the easiest...
    as per being rich... I do not know Brazialian Portuguese...
    but richness of language is its expressive possibilities... Shakesperean English is rich.

    I am afraid we will derail the thread with this)

    PS
    My native is Russian... so I have something to compare with... very different from English, French or Portuguese)))

  4. #253

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    Sight reading is difficult on the guitar not because of the tuning (Spanish vs. P4 vs. P3, etc.), as Jonah points out. He's right that the primary issue is in how the instrument is taught. Most other instruments (piano, trumpet, clarinet, etc.) are taught by reading music from day one; guitar often is not. The deficit resulting from this is not only that guitarists can't read melodies and chords on sight but we also do not develop our time. Reading sheet music requires that we can accurately count and subdivide the beat, and many guitarists have terrible time.

    Another complication for sight reading is the layout of the guitar. A keyboard is linear- for every note on the sheet music, there is only one place on the piano to play that note. There is never ambiguity of fingering any given note or, for that matter, any notated chord. With many other instruments the same is true. But not the guitar. Instead of simple linearity, the guitar is a matrix. The pitch sounded at the first open E string can be found in six places on the guitar. Which one is the right place to play it? If you switch to P3 or P4, the same situation exists although the fingering would remain constant, unlike the Spanish tuning, and this is why some people feel the symmetrical tuning systems are superior. I would say that is only true when first learning the instrument. A competent guitar teacher can get the student through this issue and help them learn how to identify logical fingerings. Once you have a grasp of the shift in Spanish tuning, it becomes a non-issue. For me the disadvantages for playing chords in symmetrical tunings outweigh the advantages for playing scales and melodies- YMMV. Comparing the guitar to bass, cello, violin, viola, etc., is a red herring because those instruments play melodies and arpeggios but not chords. Indeed, it would be difficult to play a chord on a violin, for example. As a result the symmetrical tuning system for those instruments has no disadvantages.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    piano has dampers.. and piano resoantors are also tuned to pitches... that's why piano resonance with sustain pedal is a mess.
    All that is beside the point. You earlier claimed that P4 tuning negatively affected the resonance of acoustic guitars and that the soundboards were tuned to the tuning so to speak. I disputed this and pointed out that the piano is tuned in minor seconds, yet produces sound quite well for the length of its 88 notes.

    Soundboards are designed (if they can be so qualified) to produce sound over the range of the instrument, whether guitar or piano. They are not tuned to any particular tuning as you seem to suggest.

    We'll just have to disagree on this as my ears, my decades of experience, and my science tell me the opposite of what you claim.

  6. #255

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    Honestly if I were to go back and dedicate my focus on standard tuning I would just zero in on the essentials. 5 major scale positions, maybe a few chord shapes on the top 4 strings for soloing, octave shapes to derive some intervals. All that talk about 'complete fretboard/interval/chord knowledge" is just distraction for std tuning imo, perhaps even for symmetrical tunings as well (so many different chords lol). But then again I don't know much so take this with a pinch of salt

    All I can say is that ever since I tuned to M3 tuning for a while now, I have regained my love for the guitar. My piano/horn envy has vanished away also lol. Mileage may vary though.. like always. Gotta find what clicks you
    Last edited by jazznylon; 01-19-2018 at 03:19 PM.

  7. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    These threads always make me kind of sad and I avoid them.

    Yet here you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    They tend to exemplify Sayre's law (i.e., "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low.").

    Sayre's "law" isn't a law. It's a glib put down and of no relevance.

    The issue I have in this thread is non-P4 players with zero P4 experience making unsubstantiated claims (not you, but others). It's painful to invest a lot of effort going at something alone, prove it works, and then have non-P4 naysayers chime in to dismiss it. I get it though, they're threatened by change and feel the need to defend their own personal investments.

    Everyone should look at the OP's title for this thread. It wasn't asking for criticisms, but for who is using the system and presumably what their experiences of it are. But if one looks at the discussion, it's mostly non-P4 players offering mostly uninformed opinions

    That said, this is an open forum for all to share their two cents. It's okay to have concerns, but out of courtesy, they should be phrased as questions, not pointed out as faults. For example many have pointed out over and over again that they prefer chords in std over P4, which is perfectly fine as a personal preference. If people had honest discussions, they would be asked what do they know of chords in P4? Anything? What did they find they couldn't do or find an acceptable workaround to? Here's how a P4 player would approach this problem, instead...

    Digressing on the chord subject, if I, after almost three decades in P4, found chords problematic, I would just concede the point and accept it as a trade-off. But that is not my experience at all, the chord world has opened up to me; it's literally just the opposite of what others claim. To my knowledge I'm the only guitarist on youtube to post an improvised, chord melody of "Giant Steps" in two keys, and that was 8 years ago. I cringe when I watch it now, but it does demonstrate a little of what the tuning offers. If someone else has done it in std, great, but that video alone in my view, disproves the P4 chord criticisms. Yet the evidence is ignored and the refrain continues: "P4 chords don't work." Clearly, some really don't want to know.

    Here's the bottom line, if for whatever reason one doesn't like P4, fine, but please don't chime in with uninvited or unsupportable criticisms. For those who can't resist, why not post your concerns constructively, as questions to be answered. As for me, when the topic is not interesting or I can't contribute, I don't participate - how bow dat?

  8. #257

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    I say this as someone who spent 2 years in P4, and now have been back in Standard for about 3 years:

    You can hear what you hear and I can hear what I hear -- which is, Standard has better resonance, and this was the deal-breaker for me. It especially makes a difference if you also want to play classical and flamenco, as I do.

    The interesting thing about Standard is there are some advantages in single-note playing: the triad shapes on top 3 strings are much more ergonomic. And the long diagonal -- xx8765 -- is so useful for both major and minor lines.

  9. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY View Post
    I say this as someone who spent 2 years in P4, and now have been back in Standard for about 3 years:

    You can hear what you hear and I can hear what I hear -- which is, Standard has better resonance, and this was the deal-breaker for me. It especially makes a difference if you also want to play classical and flamenco, as I do.
    As a p4 player I agree that this tuning is not optimized to strum flamenco voicings (althought it is possible to remove some bass notes and play them)
    Are you saying that the exact same voicings (in the same strings group) sound better in standard? Or are you comparing two similar voicings? Of course if we remove a note from the voicing it will not sound as fuller as the original big voicing.

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  10. #259

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    Yeah- Jazz in NY ..

    Same question as rodolfo above the exact same voicing sounds more Resonant in EADGBE ?

    I am in EADGBE but I think P4 is an interesting resource and I think this is an interesting thread and I
    feel like the P4 guys make a lot of very good points
    and most of all P4 speaks for itself .

    I can really look at it both ways - I like EADGBE but it is a PITA .

    For Writing and creating harmonically probably an edge due to closed voicings and lots of pretty and ambiguous chords too...but someone earlier replied that there are many ' big voicings ' in P4 -
    I agree just some of my faves are really hard to play .

    But Resonance ? I played a G major 7#11 so it has a perfect fifth and the # 11

    3 - 5 - 4 - 4 - 2 - 2

    Then in P4

    3 - 5 - 4 - 4 - 1 - 1 [ requires a mini barrè with finger A - 3rd finger over A ,D ,and G string even though pinky plays fret 5 on A string ]

    So yeah hard to Play in P4 but possible - I hear no difference in resonance between the two .
    Same notes and interval stacks in Standard and P4
    are very close in String Tension and no different to my ears IF same intervals and Notes are compared.

    Now IF you mean there are more types of resonant voicings and ornamental, apoggiatura types reachable in EADGBE - yes, and that's why I put up with it .




    It's surprising to me how close P4 is to EADGBE ...seems like a lot of shifting the B and high E String back one fret toward the Nut ...

    I have to say also that EADGBE is an amazingly versatile Tuning for Chords and Voicings - the early Purveyors could not have dreamed of the way I use it now ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-21-2018 at 04:49 PM.

  11. #260
    Another thing is the false sensation of resonance due the fact that certain voicings are easier to grip in standard than in 4ths. Example: 8X997X is a CMaj7 in p4ths tuning. This same voicing in standard is 8X998X. If a chord is easy for the fingers we have a tendence to think that it sound better, with more resonance, more feeling, more blablabla

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  12. #261

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    Better ergonomics leading to a stronger tone isn't imaginary though, it's a real thing.

    All I can say is I played the same pieces -- standards and classical pieces, back and forth on the same guitar in both tunings. P4 is pinched, and Standard breathes more. That was my experience. It may be possible to overcome this with a really good setup in P4.

  13. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY View Post
    Better ergonomics leading to a stronger tone isn't imaginary though, it's a real thing.

    All I can say is I played the same pieces -- standards and classical pieces, back and forth on the same guitar in both tunings. P4 is pinched, and Standard breathes more. That was my experience. It may be possible to overcome this with a really good setup in P4.
    The resonance has to do with easy fingerings, and not due the tuning itself. So I can tell you that Bb major x13320 has more resonance in 4ths than standard x13331 because it is easier. We have to compare if possible chords on the eadg strings group.

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  14. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar View Post
    The issue I have in this thread is non-P4 players with zero P4 experience making unsubstantiated claims (not you, but others). It's painful to invest a lot of effort going at something alone, prove it works, and then have non-P4 naysayers chime in to dismiss it. I get it though, they're threatened by change and feel the need to defend their own personal investments.
    To my observation, P4guitar, the friction is that your go-to response to your peers is to be hostile and dismissive if they do not agree with the inherent superiority of P4 tuning. The one who seems to feel threatened is you. You do not even accept the neutral position of "use whatever works for you."
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  15. #264

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    Oh just learn to play the guitar properly

  16. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    To my observation, P4guitar, the friction is that your go-to response to your peers is to be hostile and dismissive if they do not agree with the inherent superiority of P4 tuning. The one who seems to feel threatened is you. You do not even accept the neutral position of "use whatever works for you."
    Like I said earlier, read this thread from the start, observe how many players are std or P4 or whatever, note who slings the shit first. Then ask yourself, why are non-P4 players even commenting?

    I've said all along that
    a: I don't recommend P4 for most people because for most, what they want is to copy someone else - best to do that in the same tuning.
    b: if one is happy with the status quo, don't try to fix it.

    If I do read something I believe is wrong, I challenge it. Examples: charm, resonance, chords, can't do 'x', ad nauseam. I won't let those falsehoods slide.

    Unlike most people here, I walk the talk; I back up what I say in my videos. I show what can be done, or at least what I could do many years ago.

    Lastly, if there were a thread entitled "Anyone using Spanish tuning as your standard tuning?", I wouldn't even open it. It's not my concern. Most threads here don't interest me and I mostly don't participate unless I believe there's something that I can learn OR that I can contribute.

  17. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar View Post
    Like I said earlier, read this thread from the start, observe how many players are std or P4 or whatever, note who slings the shit first. Then ask yourself, why are non-P4 players even commenting?
    I did read the thread from the start. TBH I think you are often believing shit is being slung when it ain't.

    I looked at P4 tuning years ago because, on the face of it, it seems more conistent and logical. I quickly found that it was less convenient to play what I wanted to play on it. If I played like a horn player, I think I would prefer it. For soloing and playing melodies, the consistency and- how would I put it- portability of fingering around the neck is more logical with P4. But I play chords more than I play melodies or solo, since the guitar is a comping instrument most of the time in most situations, I found P4 much harder to utilize. I have large but not particularly flexible hands and the stretches to get the voicings that sound good to me can be difficult in Spanish tuning and beyond my reach in P4. But someone else might not have that issue, or they might prefer the voicings that are as easy if not easier in P4.

    There is a guy who sells self-branded MIC guitars on eBay, Matt Raines, who at least part of the time plays P4 and is extremely fluid with it in some of his videos. I don't know if he uses Spanish tuning much, some of his videos seem to feature that and he is very fluid there too. Seeing those videos had rekindled some academic interest in how people make use of that tuning. I don't think I could go back and forth like that at all, though.

    As for "why are non-P4 players even commenting?" Well, it would have probably been a non-thread if they weren't. What percentage of guitarists use P4? You might well be talking to yourself or maybe 2-3 other forum members about this. P4 is not exactly widespread. P3 even less so.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  18. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    I did read the thread from the start. TBH I think you are often believing shit is being slung when it ain't.
    You'll get some disagreement on that. In fact, the OP left because of the shit slinging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    I looked at P4 tuning years ago because, on the face of it, it seems more conistent and logical. I quickly found that it was less convenient to play what I wanted to play on it. If I played like a horn player, I think I would prefer it. For soloing and playing melodies, the consistency and- how would I put it- portability of fingering around the neck is more logical with P4. But I play chords more than I play melodies or solo, since the guitar is a comping instrument most of the time in most situations, I found P4 much harder to utilize. I have large but not particularly flexible hands and the stretches to get the voicings that sound good to me can be difficult in Spanish tuning and beyond my reach in P4. But someone else might not have that issue, or they might prefer the voicings that are as easy if not easier in P4.
    If it doesn't work for you that's fine. However my experience is completely different. I'm a solo player, no accompaniment at all. I play more chords than most here and most of what I play doesn't require any stretches at all.

    To the person first coming from std and wanting identical voicings, it seems that P4 won't work. P4 requires a rethink on chords; it has its own preferred voicings. More specifically, it demands that the player really think about the voicings employed because simple bar grips are less available - that's a good thing IMO. When one gets over that mental hurdle, it all comes together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    There is a guy who sells self-branded MIC guitars on eBay, Matt Raines, who at least part of the time plays P4 and is extremely fluid with it in some of his videos. I don't know if he uses Spanish tuning much, some of his videos seem to feature that and he is very fluid there too. Seeing those videos had rekindled some academic interest in how people make use of that tuning. I don't think I could go back and forth like that at all, though.
    To my knowledge, Matt Raines is strictly a P4 player. I think he teaches so he may teach in std but he plays in P4. I couldn't go back and forth, but have desire to either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    As for "why are non-P4 players even commenting?" Well, it would have probably been a non-thread if they weren't. What percentage of guitarists use P4? You might well be talking to yourself or maybe 2-3 other forum members about this. P4 is not exactly widespread. P3 even less so.
    At least the P4 players could have a supportive and constructive discussion rather than fending off the naysayers. It is worth noting that there hasn't been a significant technical discussion, i.e. a how to, of P4 in this thread. Instead the conversation has derailed into the perceived deficiencies std players have with P4, in spite of any evidence to the contrary.

  19. #268

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    Well, if it's a *sensitive Topic for you ...you should maybe have a Thread specifically for P4 Players to exchange voicings and ideas and
    amd politely request that in Thread Title .

    If I was using P4 I might want to get other voicings and tips from other Guys using it ,on a Thread without distractions...voicings for certain Tunes etc.



    Tell the ' naysayers ' - ( like me )
    'If ' Standard Tuning ' is so great , why not stick ANOTHER Major Third in there between the E and D string ? ".

    Double Standard Tuning - E G # D G B E.....ha.

    Put it in the Thread Title P4 Users Only etc.No debates please.

    Here's Kriesberg and Tom Quayle talking about P4 about 30 seconds into an Interview:



    Again - Quayle does not do much Rhythm Guitar or comping - having nothing to do with P4 -
    I think Kriesberg's comments on it are interesting . .


    Now - if ANY of you P4 guys want to understand exactly what I mean and the reason ( in addition to familiarity )I still use EADGBE - I will post Tab of voicings , not complete Tunes to show you some of the Voicings which become impractical in P4.

    On ii - V- Is and other common cadences the Progression itself is so strong that you can voice it any old way and it will still ' work'.

    Some of 'my' voicings are distinctive and are part of the Tune and some of them in 'common tone ' chord successions , not part of the Tune but need to be voiced specifically to flow smoothly.


    You don't need them for Standards anyway.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-29-2018 at 11:22 AM.

  20. #269

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    Hey P4 - I bet you can do some really cool
    vaguely McCoy Tyner comping including your fingerstyle but not needing a specific Melody on top .

    Just vaguely McCoy - have you ?
    I know you can - just wondering if you have.



    That will make me jealous lol. I know that making me jealous is not your motivation for Playing ..lol.

    I am jealous of the symmetry and uniformity though .

    P4 makes much more sense - I am eccentric to stay with 'Standard', seriously .
    Not the other way around.

    Somebody with large hands could reach my voicings in P4 anyway !
    Not me though.



    The Guitar with that 1 displacement is a much more complex instrument.

  21. #270

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    Happy 2019, Everybody!

    First post here. I have used P4 tuning for more than 20 years.

    I am on old guy and before switching I played in standard tuning for more than 30 years. I could improvise blues and rock licks, was a good finger picker in the Travis to Fahey vein and played some intermediate classical repertory. I taught guitar for five years while I was in college.

    The year I made the switch I was playing bass in a bar band. The other players were younger than I was and the material was unfamiliar to me, but harmonically pretty simple and I was enjoying the bass and finding it easy to locate the chord tones. One day I tried putting my Telecaster in P4 tuning and instantly the instrument made sense to me in a way it never had before. At the time I did not know of anyone using this tuning. I never changed back.

    The benefit for me of a parallel tuning is how it clarifies my THINKING about the guitar. A perfect fifth is always the same fingerboard distance from any note. I’ll bet there are not that many guitarists who think of their open position E, A and D chords as having exactly the same voicing R - 5 - R’ - 3.

    There are many instruments that have idiosyncratic fingerings, like saxophones, and players get around on them fine, just as they do on the guitar. But try to imagine a piano where you fingered a major triad one way up as far as Middle C, then another way for an octave, then another way…

    There are many things in our culture that we do because that is the way it has been done — I am sure somebody here must have brought up the QWERTY keyboard. Incidentally, I tried the Dvorak keyboard for a while on my computer, but had to switch back because any time I used someone else’s machine I was lost. But it is rare for me to play someone else’s guitar.

    The downside of this tuning for me was that 35 years of finger and reading memory were out the window. The material you know will be gone. Although some voicings are easier, cowboy chords are now hard. If you want to copy somebody’s lick it is not going to fall under your fingers the same way. Any printed guitar music will have to be adapted. Classical repertory written specifically for the guitar, like Villa-Lobos, is problematic. Stuff written in chord grids, like Ted Greene’s wonderful material is very hard to use. It will be difficult to teach, unless your students use the same tuning. While there are a few people who use the tuning, most of what you will find about it is very basic. You do cut yourself off from the guitar community and its history.

    But I did it and it seemed worthwhile to me — it has certainly helped me grow as a musician.

    I am not trying to convince anyone to change their tuning. It is a big step. Just reporting on my experience.

    EbeforeI

  22. #271

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    well said.....I agree with your comments....I would like to see serious jazz students at least informed about P4 I wonder how many in music schools know about this option......In my opinion....it is a superior tuning for jazz and jazz related music.....not a fan of jazz fusion...but...P4..is unquestionably the right tuning for this style...This tuning has , for me, been the difference of playing the guitar and enjoying the experience...and just giving up years ago.....I do tackle Ted greene's material.....adapting material to P4 is not that hard....The beauty of the whole thing is you discover new ways of playing through the material......it makes the music more personal....

  23. #272

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    I play a ' clean fusion' - so does not/ will not feature the too - loud- in -the - mix - overdriven - Guitar - I like to hear that occasionally..just not a lot .

    I think the liquid gain Holdsworth /Eric Johnson - ish Tone is cool for what it is - but I think clean tones will be nicer and easier on the ears and mind of listeners.

    I also like clean extended chords so the kind of fusion I do has Rhythms and chord rhythms..more modern and the Guitar lines especially will be lower in the Mix..

    I want to listen to some Harmonic P4 Players ...just to hear how 'quartal' they get .
    I wonder why Ted Greene did not use P4 ?

    I use Standard Tuning because of the ease of the 'Big' voicings 5 and 6 note ones - and partially because I am trapped in it lol.

    It took a really long time most of my life for me to get physically fluent on the Guitar where it's more easy to play it and explore chord rhythms with a bit of melody on top . I did not grow up on standards and don't like most of the Rhythms anyway and I do play Jazz type solos but I leave Standards to people who have been playing them hundreds of times and can light them up - I can write contemporary stuff .

    But I wonder why Ted Greene did not use P4 and I think that will give me more insight into the Guitar itself and I am interested to hear about P4 Players who play like Michael Hedges , Ted Greene or Comp in P4 with interesting voicings . So want to hear some P4 players exploring the Guitar ....

    I get that people can play Standards or Bach Two Part Inventions [and improvising in 2 parts should be easier in P4 ] but I have note stacks of 4ths in a lot of my voicings anyway [ in standard tuning] ...

    So I want to hear P4 used as a Harmonic Resource - who plays that way in P4 ?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-02-2019 at 11:41 AM.

  24. #273

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    after reading this thread again after a couple years..i feel a little violated, yet exhilarated. lol

    like all of the other opinions in this thread, i will contribute my equally worthless two cents:

    Certain tuning systems just work better for some than others. Why do some prefer Mac over PC? Familiarity and workflow. P4's gives the player a very uniform, efficient layout. How this measures up against your personal goals and preferences is a totally random coincidence set in motion at the moment of the big bang...resistance in any direction is futile!

    standard is what it is...mostly everything written on guitar is going to be in this tuning; this is a good enough reason for 99% of players to go with the flow. fair enough. i, personally, don't feel so bound to convention.

    that said, i am likely always going to play guitar in p4's tuning. i have been a p4's convert for ~3 years, it works for the type of music i play and the player i want to be. ideas simply require less mental processing before coming out of my hands with p4's.

    also, i see a lot opportunity for exploration in this tuning...i really like using open strings and enjoy finding new ways to work the open C and F strings into things; it's similar to its use in standard but all has a bit of a new feel/sound.

    at the end of the day, it's really all about what we are saying with the guitar anyhow. do you like the sounds you are creating? i don't think the world needs to abandon standard in favor of 4ths, but I know that this system could serve a lot of people very well -it just depends on your goals and approach.

  25. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar View Post
    Yet here you are.




    Sayre's "law" isn't a law. It's a glib put down and of no relevance.

    The issue I have in this thread is non-P4 players with zero P4 experience making unsubstantiated claims (not you, but others). It's painful to invest a lot of effort going at something alone, prove it works, and then have non-P4 naysayers chime in to dismiss it. I get it though, they're threatened by change and feel the need to defend their own personal investments.

    Everyone should look at the OP's title for this thread. It wasn't asking for criticisms, but for who is using the system and presumably what their experiences of it are. But if one looks at the discussion, it's mostly non-P4 players offering mostly uninformed opinions

    That said, this is an open forum for all to share their two cents. It's okay to have concerns, but out of courtesy, they should be phrased as questions, not pointed out as faults. For example many have pointed out over and over again that they prefer chords in std over P4, which is perfectly fine as a personal preference. If people had honest discussions, they would be asked what do they know of chords in P4? Anything? What did they find they couldn't do or find an acceptable workaround to? Here's how a P4 player would approach this problem, instead...

    Digressing on the chord subject, if I, after almost three decades in P4, found chords problematic, I would just concede the point and accept it as a trade-off. But that is not my experience at all, the chord world has opened up to me; it's literally just the opposite of what others claim. To my knowledge I'm the only guitarist on youtube to post an improvised, chord melody of "Giant Steps" in two keys, and that was 8 years ago. I cringe when I watch it now, but it does demonstrate a little of what the tuning offers. If someone else has done it in std, great, but that video alone in my view, disproves the P4 chord criticisms. Yet the evidence is ignored and the refrain continues: "P4 chords don't work." Clearly, some really don't want to know.

    Here's the bottom line, if for whatever reason one doesn't like P4, fine, but please don't chime in with uninvited or unsupportable criticisms. For those who can't resist, why not post your concerns constructively, as questions to be answered. As for me, when the topic is not interesting or I can't contribute, I don't participate - how bow dat?

    I agree all good points.

    I think what may happen is :

    Some gifted young Player on 7 string who uses P4 all fingers type and can play with pick may come along at some point or thos could be happening now.

    You can still strum while plucking ( or rest stroking with fingers [I do this a bit now]- using more precise technique using either a 'restricted strum ' to 3 or 4 strings or full strum interspersed rhythmically .


    Anyway - give a talented kid a 7 string tuned in 4ths and have him 'grow up ' in that tuning - and listening to Piano Players - and in 10 or 20 years what emerges would probably be amazing.

    I think on 7 string - even though I use EADGBE and finding cool stuff-

    EADGBE makes even less sense than it does on 6 string because you can go a little higher on the neck for closed voicings ( 7 fret stretches ) but stay in lower pitch range.

  26. #275

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    Bass players use this tuning of course.

    Some of the bass players also double guitar. It would certainly make sense for them to adopt this tuning.

    My own reasons for not using it boil down to practicality really. Also, this is not a tuning that offers a particular colour unlike DADGAD say. I’d be more drawn towards that tbh.

    A tuning whose main advantage is to simplify fretboard mapping is certainly useful but ultimately it’s adoption is slowed by ‘cultural baggage.’

    Thing is ‘cultural baggage’ is the main reason people play an instrument.

    If you do adopt P4 one is I undoubtedly playing some form of nerdy complicated widdly woo music. Which is why we are here. But most people learn the guitar to bang out a few chords.

    So as a pro using this tuning your options are - do both, teach only jazz/fusion etc students and get them to adopt as well or don’t teach.

    That said it may be useful as a concept for the Standard player who can convert into standard. I think this way quite a bit.

  27. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I agree all good points.

    I think what may happen is :

    Some gifted young Player on 7 string who uses P4 all fingers type and can play with pick may come along at some point or thos could be happening now.

    You can still strum while plucking ( or rest stroking with fingers [I do this a bit now]- using more precise technique using either a 'restricted strum ' to 3 or 4 strings or full strum interspersed rhythmically .


    Anyway - give a talented kid a 7 string tuned in 4ths and have him 'grow up ' in that tuning - and listening to Piano Players - and in 10 or 20 years what emerges would probably be amazing.

    I think on 7 string - even though I use EADGBE and finding cool stuff-

    EADGBE makes even less sense than it does on 6 string because you can go a little higher on the neck for closed voicings ( 7 fret stretches ) but stay in lower pitch range.
    Been on YouTube recently?

    There’s a lot of young people doing all kinds of stuff with all kinds of strings. The player you describe without question already exists.

  28. #277

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    I have heard that comment many times...why....did this great player or that great player not use P4 if its so great.....I have wondered that myself.....most likely early experiences with teachers and standard players/friends.....before the internet....it was almost unknown as an alternative.....I was lucky to take a few lessons from a P4 jazz player years ago in NJ....As he explained the advantages it become very clear it was the way to go....for me.....After giving up the guitar for many years, then restarting.....it was easy to reconnect with the material …..Too each his own....we will see amazing players in the future that tune this way....I believe it....

  29. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Been on YouTube recently?

    There’s a lot of young people doing all kinds of stuff with all kinds of strings. The player you describe without question already exists.
    Not on the level I am talking about.

    There is a LOT of quartal stuff available in EADGBE especially with stacks of fourths as part of major 7th chords etc.


    7- 7- 5- 5- 3- 3 etc etc etc
    Sounds like a lot of styles depending on Rhythm , context

    There is still some virgin territory ( not outside stuff either) in EADGBE anyway - but just imagining ...




    I was thinking more of a Yamandu Costa type on 7 string in P4 and futuristic McCoy Tyner stuff on Guitar that means not imitating copying 'transcribing' ( so official sounding ) Tyner - but proceeding from
    there.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-24-2019 at 12:51 PM.

  30. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY View Post
    ...
    All I can say is I played the same pieces -- standards and classical pieces, back and forth on the same guitar in both tunings.
    ...
    (sound of head exploding)

  31. #280

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    Interesting thread, I can see the advantages for jazz improvising of p4 tuning, i.e. I could play any phrase using the same configuration anywhere on the fingerboard, more or less. Whereas in standard, I guess that any typical phrase I might play across a 4-string group might need at least 3 variants when I move it to one of the other 2 string groups.

    But then it occurred to me what about sax players, trumpet players, pianists? If they want to play the same phrase in all 12 keys, don't they essentially need 12 different fingerings to do it? (although maybe fewer if it's a very simple/short phrase). And pianists get the same issue with chords.

    Compared to this, guitarists adjusting for only 3 permutations doesn't seem such a big deal after all?

    Not knocking P4 though, if had the time I would investigate it. (I did try a few ideas out using it last night, and I will probably do some more).

  32. #281

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    I think Violinists would say
    ' Thank you for your suggestion, please leave now'.
    If we asked them to tune one middle string in a third then back to fifths.

    Especially when ( If ) you look at 7 strings or 8 strings - the Guitar EADGBE looks really quirky to me.

    ' Too easy for you to tune it in fourths all the way across ?'

    'Need more of a challenge ?'

    'I understand that . '

    Sincerely ,
    Mozart.


    However - EADGBE has a lot of money voicings - you have heard of shell voicings, closed and open voicings , quartal voicings , drop 2 voicings ...

    Now you have heard of" money voicings "-
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-25-2019 at 03:58 PM.

  33. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Interesting thread, I can see the advantages for jazz improvising of p4 tuning, i.e. I could play any phrase using the same configuration anywhere on the fingerboard, more or less. Whereas in standard, I guess that any typical phrase I might play across a 4-string group might need at least 3 variants when I move it to one of the other 2 string groups.

    But then it occurred to me what about sax players, trumpet players, pianists? If they want to play the same phrase in all 12 keys, don't they essentially need 12 different fingerings to do it? (although maybe fewer if it's a very simple/short phrase). And pianists get the same issue with chords.

    Compared to this, guitarists adjusting for only 3 permutations doesn't seem such a big deal after all?

    Not knocking P4 though, if had the time I would investigate it. (I did try a few ideas out using it last night, and I will probably do some more).
    Here’s a thing that occurred to me.

    The irregular lute type tunings since the Renaissance have always been associated with instruments played by amateurs and generally have used tablature instead of notation. Tab is nothing new, it has been associated with the guitar since its birth.

    So the tuning is friendly to open position euphony and improvising around chord shapes that use a lot of open strings but not so much to conceptualisation of music in a deeper sense.

    Anyway, I do think the (standard tuning) guitar is hard. Transposing by an octave is a pain in the bum for instance and that’s natural to music.

    Also horns tend to learn piano to be able to conceptualise music. They play melodies, one note after another, obviously don’t need to worry about chords and so on.

  34. #283

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    Actually if I was starting out all over again and only playing jazz, I would probably adopt P4, it does appeal to me for its sheer logic. But it's a bit late now, plus I still play classical sometimes, which would be a bit of a pain. (and I'm only an amateur, I don't have much time to work on this stuff!)

    I just wondered why more pro jazz guitarists haven't switched to it.

    I've been dabbling in mandolin a bit recently, so I've noticed the advantages there in P5.

  35. #284

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    Pro jazz musicians? There are none. We all teach. Hence reluctance to adopt P4.

  36. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Pro jazz musicians? There are none. We all teach. Hence reluctance to adopt P4.
    Why not teach in standard and study and play in 4ths? Well, if you have lots of advance students it is hard (maybe), but most studants I have are begginer, so for me it is not so complicated. For instance you can demonstrate lots of songs and concepts inside of the EADG and BE group strings.

  37. #286
    Actually lots of players here emits their opinion about p4ths tuning without having a minimun amount of experience on this, so it turns this discussion really hard. Lots of the advantages and disadvanteges you will find out only in the learning process of this tuning. IMHO the main advantages are: 1-easier to relate finger patterns with sounds 2-thinking less about patternes.

  38. #287

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    My wife (who plays the violin, which of course has symmetrical tuning) has recently started learning the guitar. Today she said ‘the guitar is annoying, half the notes are in the wrong place!’

  39. #288

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    My wife (who plays the violin, which of course has symmetrical tuning) has recently started learning the guitar. Today she said ‘the guitar is annoying, half the notes are in the wrong place!’
    Lol. Violinists have it rough no frets and extremely demanding pieces- I recently became aware of Hilary Hahn.


    A perfect candidate for P4 , right ?

  40. #289

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra View Post
    Why not teach in standard and study and play in 4ths? Well, if you have lots of advance students it is hard (maybe), but most studants I have are begginer, so for me it is not so complicated. For instance you can demonstrate lots of songs and concepts inside of the EADG and BE group strings.
    I'm sure it's eminently possible. But it presents a barrier. Could probably get good at swapping back forth. I know some players who do this.

    I have some pretty advanced students. It would be annoying for me.

    The long and short of it for me is there's no good reason to use it..... the mapping problems that P4 tuning rationalises.... I no longer really consider an issue. If I was struggling with that stuff, sure. But I'm kind of used to seeing everything as P4 with a San Andreas style fault in the middle.

    There's little other reason to bother with it. It's not like DADGAD or something where you go - "wow I can play a scale like a harp!" Or something. It sounds pretty much the same as standard. Only not as good for cowboy chords.

    But if a student finds it helpful... cool...

  41. #290
    I recall Mick Goodrick being asked about P4 tuning. He said he considered it for a moment, but chose not to pursue it. " I dug the symmetry, but there was just too much meat to that triad"....

    PK

  42. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Lol. Violinists have it rough no frets and extremely demanding pieces- I recently became aware of Hilary Hahn.


    A perfect candidate for P4 , right ?
    She’s learning some classical pieces and using my son’s classical guitar to do it, so that might cause arguments!

  43. #292

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    @grahambop- Yeah - I get it , gotta keep the peace.

    @Christian-I remember reading about Joni Mitchell using many different tunings onstage - I would absolutely suck at that , but Joni Mitchell is a Genius - writing, singing , playing Guitar (within her style )-painting -

    You mentioned Tom Quayle on another thread - I think he uses P4 and he still does Legato but he also can pick very well now and he is still learning ( despite being advanced already ) - you could tell in his interview with Kriesberg.

    Anyway - if he starts doing more Comping, Rhythm Guitar etc... I would not be surprised to see him doing some 'new' great sounding stuff in P4 .

    I think for his students - he goes back to EADGBE and in some demos ...

    A 7 stringer who plays clean stuff in P4 might be really interesting - (harmonically I mean ) as I said ...

  44. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    @grahambop- Yeah - I get it , gotta keep the peace.

    @Christian-I remember reading about Joni Mitchell using many different tunings onstage - I would absolutely suck at that , but Joni Mitchell is a Genius - writing, singing , playing Guitar (within her style )-painting -
    Sure, I love Joni. The Joni tuning for me is always open D - I know she uses loads of tunings, but that tuning gets the sound of so many of her songs right away. Her playing is kind of like an orchestra on that early stuff... Amazing...

    You mentioned Tom Quayle on another thread - I think he uses P4 and he still does Legato but he also can pick very well now and he is still learning ( despite being advanced already ) - you could tell in his interview with Kriesberg.
    Well we are all learning, no?

    Yeah Tom is a very impressive player. Shame he seems to be unable to but out of this world of gear demos and clinics. I think this is true of a lot of young technically able players.

    Anyway - if he starts doing more Comping, Rhythm Guitar etc... I would not be surprised to see him doing some 'new' great sounding stuff in P4 .

    I think for his students - he goes back to EADGBE and in some demos ...
    Yes I have some of his teaching materials. They are good.... Though a bit 3nps-ey as well, which I'm not really into... I wonder if P4 players map that stuff that way.

    A 7 stringer who plays clean stuff in P4 might be really interesting - (harmonically I mean ) as I said ...
    I don't see why they would be more harmonically interesting that a standard tuned guitarist. It would make it easier to get that point. But this is a world that contains Ben Monder and he plays in standard.

    I do have a friend called Ant Law who is really really good and plays an 8 string in P4:


  45. #294

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    Just listened to Ant Law- really tight rhythm section and interesting nice chops semi legato style ( and not too loud in the mix one of the top 3 errors lol).
    Sounds like 'Spain' slowed down and repeated phrases a little....

    I agree that I don't expect they ( P4) would have any advantages over the rest of us - I think
    EADGBE is versatile...I just expect someone to be McCoy Tyner of Guitar (lol)- or 30% ...when I think 7 string P4 .

    It's better for me to imagine it- then do it myself but too late to tackle 7 string - can't step back right now - that would be insane.





    If I had big hands to easily stretch 7 and 8 frets on chords the way I easily stretch 5 and 6 frets now - BAM- P4 would be better in many ways , probably every way.
    EXCEPT - we can do a major or minor triad with a mini barré in almost ANY voicing leaving 3 more fingers for other harmonic exploration(s).



    I like EADGBE for big voicings much better.

    8 - 10 - 9 - 5 - 5 - 5 etc ( whole family of these types ).

    But for composition ( in my case ).


    Speaking of Joni Mitchell - here is a Cadence that sounds a bit like a Tuning but transposable to any Key .

    And I have variations on the I chord etc.(soft dominant 13 sus 4 with minor 2nd between 6 and flat 7 )

    6 - 6 - 6 -6 - 2 -2 / 8 -8 -8 -8 - 4 -4


    8- 12 - 10- 10- 8 - 8

    This due to the ambiguity of all the 4ths also sounds similar as a bIII ( Major) IV (Major ) to the I
    Where the example above is bVI -VII - I
    can sound like Joni ....Keith Richards ....or Steely Dan depending upon fingerpicking , plucked and fingerpicked , grabbed Bossa style etc.for Jazz .

    Even *McCoy Tyner can't play it cause of the Unisons ( he is worried now lol) ...they have a natural chorus effect kinda ..


    *McCoy Should be as famous as Miles -kinda under the Radar to non Jazzers - IMO.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-31-2019 at 07:45 AM.