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  1. #101

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    I don't know what it is about Quayle. He does nothing for me at all. Like the bass player Todd though

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    I don't know what it is about Quayle. He does nothing for me at all. Like the bass player Todd though
    Haha that´s ok. Bass players often give me good ideas.

  4. #103

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    Then you will love this. Victor Wooten playing Mr PC by John Coltrane



  5. #104

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    I remember stealing a bunch of those licks back in the day haha.

  6. #105

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    I though that you'd like to know about Graham Young, who taught Tom Quayle P4 tuning. He got the tuning from Stanley Jordan, but without the tapping. Beware, he's another fusion player.

    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  7. #106

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    Some of us like P4 and some of us like M3. But maybe we can all agree on this keyboard? What do you say Kiefer?



    Unfortunately, you need to spend about 1000 to get the cheaper model.
    Last edited by jster; 03-28-2014 at 01:39 PM.
    Favorite Musician: Pythagoras

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    Some of us like P4 and some of us like M3. But maybe we can all agree on this keyboard? What do you say Kiefer?



    Unfortunately, you need to spend about 1000 to get the cheaper model.
    Very nice, it's similar to this older version.

    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #108

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    It only goes to show just how vitally important visual patterns and shapes are. Some like to say.. 'Oh I don't play patterns I play and think in intervals'. I don't believe that for a second. It's humanly impossible to be thinking exclusively in intervals unless you play at the speed of a snail.

    That's similar to trying to think of each letter in a word before you speak it. Madness. We don't, we think in entire clusters and groups of words and phrases which are patterns when we speak at speed.

    I know intervals.. great. But intervals for me are like the alphabet. I can spell my scales and chords the same as I can my words, but I NEVER even think about it any more. It's automatic. But I do think about patterns and shapes every day and dream in patterns and shapes every night.

    I just focus on whole words, phrases and entire paragraphs. Spelling is for Kindergarten. Learn it and move on.

    The piano is well overdue for a re-design.


    Last edited by Maxxx; 03-29-2014 at 03:52 AM.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    It only goes to show just how vitally important visual patterns and shapes are. Some like to say.. 'Oh I don't play patterns I play and think in intervals'. I don't believe that for a second. It's humanly impossible to be thinking exclusively in intervals unless you play at the speed of a snail.
    When I'm practicing I think of the note names, the intervals, sing the note names and think how they are related to the musical context. Yes, I play patterns, patterns on the fingerboard and more importantly patterns in sound, we humans love patterns in sound.

    When I play, for bad or for worse, I don't think at all, I just follow where the music seems to be going.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    Some of us like P4 and some of us like M3. But maybe we can all agree on this keyboard? What do you say Kiefer?



    Unfortunately, you need to spend about 1000 to get the cheaper model.
    It'll have to do until somebody comes up with a Penrose tiling keyboard or an association football (soccer) keyboard!

    Reminds me of Hex and Avalon Hill wargames (e.g. Squad Leader and Panzer Leader)....

    The author of a nice tuning guide that has a chapter on regular tunings, William Sethares and others developed an isomorphic keyboard.
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    Some of us like P4 and some of us like M3. But maybe we can all agree on this keyboard? What do you say Kiefer?


    The hexagonal pattern is natural for tertian harmony and is known as Tonnetz. C.f., isomorphic keyboard.
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  13. #112

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    I was playing in P4 for four hours today. I found that scales are much easier to visualize than before, especially the 3-note-per-string variety. Had a hard time seeing arpeggios though. Tips? Also, I'm having a very hard time adjusting to chord-melody. Then again, only four hours in P4 vs. 6 years in standard.

    A few notable things stay the same. For instance, if you know all your drop 2's on the bottom string set in standard tuning, you automatically know ALL the drop 2's in P4 tuning, because the shapes are the same. Also of note, Freddie Green-ing is the same, so you can functionally comp while getting used to the new tuning.

    I was building voicings with open strings in them, and I must say, in jazz keys, C and F are a lot more useful than B and E.

    To those who play primarily in P4:
    -Should I use lighter strings or heavier on the C and F strings? I used custom heavy strings for E and B in standard tuning, but now that they're tuned up, they feel really tight.
    -When you play arpeggios, what shapes do you use? My teacher taught me about 2-note-per-string 7th chord arps, and those seem to lend themselves to the P4 tuning, but when I tried to play in-position arps, I was stumped.
    -Do you have to find a teacher who uses P4? Do you teach your students in P4? Or is it easy to be "bilingual"?

  14. #113

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    Go here and check our their resources: https://www.facebook.com/groups/183968224067/

    -Should I use lighter strings or heavier on the C and F strings? I used custom heavy strings for E and B in standard tuning, but now that they're tuned up, they feel really tight.

    The tension will go up and the C and F strings. I use 12-52's. Your style may need something different. Experiment with a lighter gauge.

    -When you play arpeggios, what shapes do you use? My teacher taught me about 2-note-per-string 7th chord arps, and those seem to lend themselves to the P4 tuning, but when I tried to play in-position arps, I was stumped.

    Depends on the spelling of the arpeggio. For the cliche 1 3 5 7 arp, I either play the 5 and 7 on one string or the 3 and 5 on one string.

    -Do you have to find a teacher who uses P4?

    Good luck with that.

    - Do you teach your students in P4?

    Don't teach...only lecture

    - Or is it easy to be "bilingual"?

    No idea. Made a commitment decades ago and never looked back.

  15. #114

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    Here's my system for knowing the whole fretboard, arps, chords, scales etc:


    I use 7 parent patterns, each with 3 child patterns, these make the whole fretboard. Use these patterns in all keys and you will have chords, arps, scales everything you'll need.


    The above shows each of the three child patterns and the Major Arp contained within.


    The above shows parent pattern 1 for C Major, there are 7 patterns in total, you need to be able to find where each child pattern or partial child pattern is location within the parent pattern.


    The above shows each child pattern Major arp contained in the parent pattern.




    The above shows the 7 parent patterns in C major, each pattern contains 3 Child patterns or partial child patterns.

    The whole fretboard, contains these 7 patterns.
    Last edited by GuyBoden; 04-03-2014 at 09:08 AM.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  16. #115

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    Here's the 7 Parent Patterns for F Major, parent pattern 1 starts on fret 1, which can be a big stretch if you don't already use 3 notes per string patterns:



    If you need any additional information just ask and I'll try to help.
    Last edited by GuyBoden; 03-31-2014 at 12:24 PM. Reason: If you need any additional information just ask and I'll try to help.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    If you need any additional information just ask and I'll try to help.
    Thank you for the help.

    I agree that P4 is very conducive to 3 note per string scale fingerings

    I've been playing with 3 note per string major fingerings for a long time, so most of the stretches are easy enough for me. But I'm just starting out with the 3 note per string melodic minor. I've drawn out the 7 parent patterns in a graph paper notebook. They have a much more irregular looking pattern. Still, better than they were in standard. Do you use a fingering different than this, or do you stick to the 3 note per string scales?

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by =DK= View Post
    I'm just starting out with the 3 note per string melodic minor.
    The Melodic minor parent patterns are the same Major key patterns but with the 3rd flattened.

    Above is the 7 Melodic Minor Parent Patterns.


    Above is the 3 child Melodic minor patterns and the Arp contained within. Each of the parent patterns contains 3 Child patterns or partial child patterns.

    The trick is the recognise where each child pattern is located in each parent pattern.

    If you need any more info, just ask.
    Last edited by GuyBoden; 04-03-2014 at 09:07 AM.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  19. #118

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    Once I could play the 7 Major parent patterns instinctively without thinking, I found that they could easily be connected by moving the 1st finger for ascending and the 4th finger for descending. So to ascend just move the 1st finger up to the next note in the pattern, to descend move the 4th finger down to the next note in the pattern. With practice, I found that the whole fingerboard can be navigated with ease using this method. This example is only using one key, but I later extended the system to navigate multiple keys.

    See the diagram below for info:

    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  20. #119

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    I subsequently moved from 6 string P4 onto a 7 string guitar tuned in P4 about 3 years ago, this is my 7 string P4 diagram in C major.

    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  21. #120

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    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  22. #121

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    Having left major-thirds tuning, I am relearning the P4 fretboard, beginning with position playing in the 2nd (equivalently 7th) position.

    I don't recall a previous discussion of position playing in P4 tuning, despite it being an advantage over Spanish (standard) tuning. Later on, Guy, your diagrams shall make more sense to me. Thanks in advance for your guidance!
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  23. #122

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    This was posted on rmmgj today. The author is unlikely to be received well by the orthodoxy there but his work might be appreciated here.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
    Uil Loi


    4:37 AM (12 hours ago)


    Hello everybody, I've cleaned up a bit the various docs I've created for myself over the past years while learning to play the guitar tuned in 4ths.

    There's very little existing material on this tuning and this represents a fairly exhaustive overview of the voicing available for 4-note-chords.

    http://synthetictruth.com/music/p4/

    I hope this is useful to others out there, and please let me know if you notice any blatant mistakes.

    Cheers

  24. #123

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    After spending about 3 years learning drop 2s and 3s and the various arpeggios in different positions across the string sets, I started learning 4 string bass last year to complement guitar. I have now dropped guitar for the time being and am concentrating on fretless 4 string bass and fretted 5 string bass. I have made this change for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact that I can see that it will actually be possible to master the fretboard on the bass for the simple reason that it is set up in P4s. This avoids the unnecessary complication and therefore duplication of learning caused by the B string. Every 'shape' is the same - although I am not necessarily a 'shape' learner I hasten to add. There is no need to make exceptions for the B string. With P4, I stand a chance as a regular human being, with 3 kids, my own business and only an hour or so in the evening to play jazz guitar, to develop a mastery of sorts over the instrument. I didn't feel that way with standard tuning on the guitar - the guitar was the boss, not me.

    I have strung my 5 string bass with a high C, thereby continuing the P4 theme. I can see a time soon when I will crack out the tele again, tune the high 2 strings up to P4s and continue my journey on the guitar.

    My view is that P4 really simplifies the fretboard and therefore the ease of knowing where you are and the intuition for that. It will complicate my chord knowledge though - I will have to 'unlearn' my usual drop 2's and some of my drop 3s. Shell voicings will be fine though. I am still not sure whether I will complete the circle by using P4 with chord melody or stick to standard with that. I don't like the idea of 2 systems though.

  25. #124

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    It's a pervasive myth that P4 doesn't work well for chord work. The reality is it works great as the logical layout that simplifies single line also applies for chords. There are also a good number of fine bassists playing P4 of course that perform very nice chord melody. The one system approach will serve you well both on bass and guitar.

  26. #125

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    I am sure you are right! It is just the re-learning that is a drag. I wish I had known enough when I started guitar to think critically about what I was learning.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning View Post
    It's a pervasive myth that P4 doesn't work well for chord work. The reality is it works great as the logical layout that simplifies single line also applies for chords. There are also a good number of fine bassists playing P4 of course that perform very nice chord melody. The one system approach will serve you well both on bass and guitar.
    "You pick the one right tool."
    --Anton Chighur, No Country for Old Men
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badge View Post
    I am sure you are right! It is just the re-learning that is a drag. I wish I had known enough when I started guitar to think critically about what I was learning.
    Me too. I had almost 30 years in standard when I switched. It was a frustrating year but well worth it IMO. Some people say their conversion was much shorter but I suspect the conversion time is proportional to how much one already knows - well that's my excuse anyway.

    Utilize the free tools available on the internet like Uil Loi's chord charts posted above or this facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/183968224067/

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning View Post
    This was posted on rmmgj today. The author is unlikely to be received well by the orthodoxy there but his work might be appreciated here.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
    Uil Loi


    4:37 AM (12 hours ago)


    Hello everybody, I've cleaned up a bit the various docs I've created for myself over the past years while learning to play the guitar tuned in 4ths.

    There's very little existing material on this tuning and this represents a fairly exhaustive overview of the voicing available for 4-note-chords.

    http://synthetictruth.com/music/p4/

    I hope this is useful to others out there, and please let me know if you notice any blatant mistakes.

    Cheers
    Thanks
    Guy
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  30. #129
    I've been enjoying this thread.

    I started as a bass player and started buying $25 pawn shop acoustic guitars to practice my bass chops during a time where I was travelling a lot though Nebraska and Kansas. Eventually I started to learn some chords and play it like an actual guitar.

    The B string has always been the issue for me when it comes to either playing lead or chords on only the top 4 strings. I have the 'bass' part of the guitar pretty well down and because I mostly played solo (while singing) it was not really as much of a problem, but once I started to try and accompany other guitars it often sounded muddy to hang out in my comfort zone's register.

    I had recently decided to put together a curriculum to teach myself to be a jazz guitarist and to get to where I can translate that knowledge to being an accompanist for other players as well. In doing so I have tried to narrow down what are the essential chord 'grips' and such so as to make the most use of my time. It seems to me that P4 tuning narrows the field by a long shot by making all the chords transferable to all of the string sets.

    I see how much guys were able to do with just shell voicings and FG type 3'ws & 7's and am excited to be able to transfer the fingerings I already know across the whole fret board.

  31. #130

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    FWIW, here are the custom string gauges I use for p4 tuning:

    46w 36w 26w 19w 13 9.5

    49w 38w 28w 20w 13.5 10

    54w 42w 30w 22w 15 11


    I chose these after I calculated the string tensions to match that of a standard set.

    Apparently, the tensions of a standard set are intentionally varied in a rolling curve (and not all the same tension) to provide a uniform feel, as strings with different gauges don't feel the same under the same tension.
    Last edited by count0; 06-09-2014 at 03:27 PM.

  32. #131

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    Left-handed guitarists using the all perfect-fourths tuning (P4 tuning) can use my (right-handed) diagrams for movable chords in all perfect-fifths tuning, which I posted yesterday in our thread on the "new standard tuning" C-G-D-A-E-G (preferably termed "C-major pentatonic" or "Guitar Craft" tuning) of Robert Fripp.

    Like NST, the left-handed P4 tuning and all-fifths tunings seem to allow more consistent voicings and more easily blended inversions than does the (right-hand) P4 tuning---at least for basic chords (diatonic, tertian triads & sevenths). Of course, some closed voicings of P4 and standard tuning have to be simplified for NST/all-fifths/lefty all-fourths; I have given NST substitutes for the basic C-major chords from volume one of Mel Bay's method.
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  33. #132

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    Yeah I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd update it rather than start a new one.

    After a 4 year hiatus from youtube posting I decided to give it another go so I announced my intentions at the P4 facebook site. I asked if anyone there had anything they would like addressed in a video tutorial. The few responses I got were that they'd like some approach for chord melody playing.

    Long story short, I had no idea how to describe my process and it took some time to break it down to some basics. Unfortunately getting this on video turned into a project as I learned that I'm not a good talker AND player nor am I very patient with redo's hence some draconian editing.

    The result of this project:
    - three videos covering different but related topics
    - Badly and brutally edited as I was trying to boil down to the essence and stay under the 15 minute limit per video (I refuse to give youtube my phone number)
    - An approach to memorize tunes and play in any key
    - A different and heretical way to think about chords and their fundamental tones (1, 3, 5, 7)
    - Alternatives to chords using root tones, dyads, triads (and no, chords work just fine in P4 thank you)
    - a brief discussion of using the above with tritones

    While I targeted this to P4 players - guitar, bass, and bajo sexto , everything I discuss can be done in standard tuning. Caveat: the specific forms I use multiply in standard because its tuning map is more complex.







  34. #133

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    Hey, don't give up now, folks. I just got inspired! After half a century of playing guitar poorly, I decided to get Bert Ligon's book and learn to read music. As long as I'm going to sweat over where to put my fingers, I might as well do it in P4.

  35. #134

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    well. good luck....stop by the P4 FB page and comment and let us know how's its going.....

  36. #135

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    I am quite sure P4 is much more logical and single lines and single lines with chord fragments harmonized scales etc and triads and 4 note voicings.

    What someone like me would lose are the big 5 and 6 Note Voicings and wide stretch chords with seconds and minor seconds.

    These would be 6 and 7 fret stretches and many would be impossible .

    But lots of " bigger " voicings in quartal harmony might be easier.

    Kind of a vague question- but are closed position 5 Note voicings still available in P4 ?
    Have you P4 Guys still " found" a lot of interesting and unique voicings or do most of those go away in P4 ?

    Does anyone play 5 and 6 Note voicings frequently in P4 ?

  37. #136

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    To answer your question, I do use 5 and 6 note voicings - they tend to be different types of chords though, 6/9, sus, etc.

    Where P4 suffers most is in closed voicings, but in my experience, that's not detrimental. I played in std tuning for decades before I switched and as I progressed as a standard player, I learned that big voicings muddied the waters and slowed the hand. Listen to a player like Bickert: dyads, triads, open voicings are what sound best and these are readily available in P4.


    P4 frees one to play many diverse chords than standard, simply because one is not fighting the fretboard map. It teaches the player to pick out the important chord tones for whatever sound they're going for.

  38. #137

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    I think you nailed it....and you can play many ( not all) classical pieces....so its not a one trick pony....

  39. #138

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    I played standard tuning for fifty years. (I kid you not, as Jack Paar would say. Who's Jack Paar, Grandpa?) I started timidly, going P4 with my Nighthawk. I lost some of my favorite harmonies but gained others. I had to abandon the Howard Roberts arrangement of Moonlight in Vermont that I learned in Guitar Player, October 1968. I went P4 for my Jazzmaster. Now I can play surf music in D flat! Maybe I can get together with Vaughan Monroe . After a year, I decided that I'm all in for P4. Tuned the artcore afj95 to P4 which seems to have made me smoother and quicker. I play more dyads and 1 3 7 triads. Everywhere. No place on the neck is safe! I think I'm a better musician. P4 seems to have turned my instruments into piano. Good or bad, can't say but I enjoy playing more. Happy New Year to all on the forum

  40. #139

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    I appreciate all the info on P4 .

    I have no doubt that it turns the Guitar mentally into more of a " Keyboard" type Instrument with uniformly visualized ( and " felt" with eyes closed like an MRI - lol) intervals - what a relief that must be .

    I play a lot of closed voicings and P4 turns a 6 fret stretch into 7 and would miss many of my favorite ones .
    I have small hands but am used to 5 and 6 fret stretches but 7 will hurt.


    Looks like many 6 note barre chords like Min 7 and Min9 just require a "Partial Barrè from the second finger- not too bad...

    Much easier in many ways...I can see how especially a Trad Jazz Player could use it extremely well except Chord Melody in a Traditional way...

    It makes SO much more sense for improvising single and two note ( OK Diads ) stuff and I love how Triads are uniform everywhere- actually everything is uniform everywhere...

    I can see how after a few months...you might never go back...

    Looks like a lot of 6 Note Voicings need to turn to 5 and some of the 6 Note "standard" Voicings need to have a curved Barrè with Index Finger.



    Interesting- not as bad as I thought for
    some close voicings I use these in a kind of Modern R&B and am writing what might be Urban Jazz ..

    I am afraid if I play too long in P4 I might like it...lol.

    My Chord Voicings like most Rock and R&B Players are part of the Tune so it' s not like " comping" where I can switch a
    Fat " Hendrix Meets Steely Dan " voicing into a little 4 note thing...

    I have to see if I can get enough of my favorites or similar under my fingers.

    Chord Books in P4 will be what ....
    66% ...75 % fewer pages ?☺
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-29-2015 at 07:53 AM.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by artcore View Post
    well. good luck....stop by the P4 FB page and comment and let us know how's its going.....
    Thanks for the invite! I'd like to, but I have a huge problem with Facebook and everything about them. Thanks to you, and 4thstuning and everyone posting anywhere else.

  42. #141

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    Hey guys,

    For those of you that have switched to fourths tuning, how long into playing did you do that and how long did it take you to adjust to the point where you could play competently like you could in standard tuning?

    Im studying jazz in college and am thinking about switching to fourths tuning over the summer, but I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to get my playing together in time when the year starts and that all of my ensemble playing etc will be compromised.

  43. #142

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    It took me a year, but I was working a demanding job, recently married with a new baby so I couldn't concentrate on P4 like it seems you'll be able to do.

    I also decided to play in a college jazz band during the transition which was difficult to say the least, but that helped force me to progress.

    Another thing that helped is when I switched, I never went back and played standard...ever. It was a full 100% commitment.

    At that time there was zero information available - and as far as I knew then, I was the only one on the planet doing it. Now there's lots of information and P4 players to help.

    If you could dedicate the time you might make a reasonable conversion over the summer...or maybe not. You'll certainly have more support than I had.

    Good luck!

  44. #143

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    After playing standard tuning for going on 25 years I decided to switch to P4 tuning suddenly and exclusively. It was pretty challenging at first and my brain was scrambled eggs but now I can only play in P4 as standard seems to have been washed from my brain. I love P4 both chords and scales and I'd say a few more months and I'll be ready to get out there playing jazz professionally again.

    Definitely worth the switch.

  45. #144
    After 15 years playing with standard tuning, I am studying EADGCF exclusively for 3 months. I am very happy with the results! Everything really becomes simpler, less fingers = more music. The downside so far is that my reading was greatly impaired. I will continue studying and do not intend to go back to standard tuning. If I could I would go back in time and avoid wasting a lot of time with useless patterns that give the same result in the end. The problem is that when we start playing we are not aware of the real problems of standard tuning, nobody tells us the pros and cons so we can make our own decision.
    Last edited by rodolfoguitarra; 03-01-2017 at 05:10 PM.

  46. #145

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    join us on facebook...guitar tuning in 4ths......

  47. #146

  48. #147

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    It is still the best kept secret in guitar playing!....however, more people are getting the message and taking the plunge....it is not ( contrary to many opinions) a one trick pony for jazz players only......if you sing and play country and only need a few a cords then of course standard is just fine......other then that....you will see the advantage in short order.....wonderful symmetry across the neck ...I know I would not be playing and enjoying music today if I had not been tuning in P4......

  49. #148

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    I can see the benefits when playing just single notes but what about chords and soecially barre chords? The standard tuning has a reason: make playing chords easier, does P4 tunning imply lot of fingering changes, or you focus more on playing small chords instead of 5 or 6 notes chords?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Miles Parrish
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  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilesPG View Post
    I can see the benefits when playing just single notes but what about chords and soecially barre chords? The standard tuning has a reason: make playing chords easier, does P4 tunning imply lot of fingering changes, or you focus more on playing small chords instead of 5 or 6 notes chords?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Some chords are better in standard and some are better P4. Both tuning systems will do all the chords, but their notes may be slightly different. Overall chords are better in P4 because there are less of them, rather there aren't so many forms of the same chords as there are in standard.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

  51. #150

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    Exactly.....with some echo and some reverb I can get the effect, close to a full bar...we can also do what's called a staggered bar cord...or a twisted bar cord.....I don't know about you guys, but I don't need full bar cords for the most part....the point being what you are giving up for your bar cords we are gaining many times over