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  1. #51

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    4thstuning,

    Do you use a lighter gauge of strings for the top two? Even in standard tuning, I end up breaking those sometimes, especially when setting up my guitar.

    I guess an alternative would be to tune down the bottom 4 strings.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by count0 View Post
    4thstuning,

    Do you use a lighter gauge of strings for the top two? Even in standard tuning, I end up breaking those sometimes, especially when setting up my guitar.

    I guess an alternative would be to tune down the bottom 4 strings.
    Since I tune to an f# on my highest string (tuning in 5ths, GDacbf#) I kept breaking strings until I changed the way I wind the string.

    Before I wind it on the tuning post I tease the string into a nice smooth coil with a pair of pliers so to avoid "kinks" in the curve. I fit the coiled string over the post, ensuring at least 5 rotations before threading the string through.

    It appears that any single tensile stress potential for metal fatigue is alleviated by making the string coil smoothly, and the 5+ rotations spreads the tensile stress along the length of the coil before the string goes through the post.

    FWIW the "standard" P5 = ACgdae (upper for are like mandolin/mondola), but since I'd need a light gauge flat-wound bass string for the low A (expensive $50 sets), I'm currently working with the GDacbf# layout.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by count0 View Post
    4thstuning,

    Do you use a lighter gauge of strings for the top two? Even in standard tuning, I end up breaking those sometimes, especially when setting up my guitar.

    I guess an alternative would be to tune down the bottom 4 strings.
    No changes at all.

    I use regular 12/52's gauge strings and tune the 'B' and 'E' strings up to 'C' and 'F'. This is a tiny increase in string tension. People bend their strings way past a half-step all the time so tuning up a half-step is nothing.

    I do this on my archtops and my flat top with no problems at all. I've never broken a string at these gauges.

    I do have a Manouche Macaferri style guitar that uses 10/44 something gauge on a long neck (increases the tension) and broke one string one time...but all the gypsy players have that experience. I use 4ths tuning for gypsy too.

    Benefits are
    1) that I'm mostly in tune with others and the sheet music.
    2) Only two strings are changed in the fretboard and notation map.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning View Post
    I don't do too many stretches for my chords so I'm curious as to what you're doing. If you have specific questions I'll be happy to answer as best I can.

    Here are some other resources to help an aspiring 4ths tuner:

    Kanaal van passanova - YouTube
    (Matt Raines, hot jazzer out of Austin, TX. He has an instructional DVD for 4ths tuning on guitar and sells guitars too)

    Do a search on YouTube for "Ant Law guitar". He's a fine player out of England or Scotland or somewhere in the nethers who is promoting a book he recently published on how to use the tuning.
    3rd Millennium Guitar: An Introduction to Perfect 4th Tuning - by Ant Law - 22241EB | Mel Bay Public
    Mel Bay.com: Products for guitar, mandolin, banjo, dulcimer, fiddle, ukulele


    Facebook: "Guitar Tuning in 4ths" has some diagrams and there's a small community of people who talk about it...but I haven't seen any playing yet They also have a link to a couple of books on 4ths tuning.


    Learning in to play in "straigth fourths" (has some chord diagrams and bad spelling)


    Here are two English rock/funk/blues stylists using 4ths:

    Kanaal van tq105 - YouTube (he can play jazz too)
    Kanaal van bluesjamtracks - YouTube (Alex Hutchings)

    It's a shame but these are all pretty awful and poor P4 resources.. I have checked them all out.

    Matt Raines: I would hardly call him a resource. His poorly recorded videos mostly show off his own guitars or he's just testing or reviewing other people's gear or putting them down in favour of his own. Not a very endearing fellow at all.

    Ant Laws book is equally devoid of real useful 'material'.

    What worries me are the chapter headings.


    If this book is about P4 tuning.. why are pages 15 through 23 on Standard tuning? That's 9 pages!!. It does not seem that he even touches on P4 tuning till page 29!

    Looking at the continuing chapters it appears that half the book contains just pointless and useless 'filler' material and stuff not related to real P4 at all.
    It's obvious he's just out to make an easy buck and fill a gap in the guitar book market.

    I have a lot of experience with Mel Bay books and many are not worth the paper they are printed on.

    The
    Facebook: "Guitar Tuning in 4ths" group is a completely dead zone. 230 members but only 3 people sharing or ever discussing anything. I was in it for a while.

    2 and a half years have passed since your post 4thstuning and these are still the only 'resources' on P4 available. That is a pretty sad state of affairs I have to say.

    The reason I say all of this is that I made the switch to P4 myself about 2 months ago and am on the constant lookout for material.. even simple P4 chord charts are hard to find!

    It seems that if you really wish to explore or switch to P4 it is indeed a solitary venture..




    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-06-2014 at 11:30 PM.

  6. #55

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    sorry you're disappointed. Why don't you ask me something and I'll tell you how to do it.

  7. #56

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    Hi 4th,

    A month ago I did manage to find entire sheets of P4 chords on some site somewhere but I lost the links when I had to reformat my comp and now for the life of me can not find them. I have great visual memory and having the chord diagrams like the one below but for all P4 chords would save me masses of time in re-learning the new shapes. Scales are really easy and I have 98% of them down already in just 2 months.. but after 15 years jazz comping in standard tuning the old shapes refuse to leave my hands when I try to play at speed.

    For me this is the greatest challenge and difficulty regarding adopting P4 as a jazz musician. The new chord shapes. If you or anyone knows where I could find some I'd really appreciate it.

    I'm looking for chord sheets like this.. but P4 of course. The more the better. Some people will say.. why don't you just alter the 2 notes of the chords you know or of the ones below. But that defeats the object for me. I don't even want to think of or see the standard shapes at all.. as that imbeds them further. I need to forget them completely as part of my commitment to P4 playing. I don't want to be thinking: "this is a modified standard chord". I want the P4 chords to become my 'standard'.

    Anyone using P4 as your standard tuning?-progression-201012220531380-jpg
    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-07-2014 at 04:55 AM.

  8. #57

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    I been playing in 4ths for many years, I started simply and added more complexity over the years.

    First, you'll need to know all the notes on the fretboard, it's quite easy because 4th tuning only changes the notes on two strings. Create your own fretboard diagrams, the process of making your own fretboard diagrams helps to reinforce the information.

    Chords: To get started, chords can easily be created by using only three notes, Root, Third and Seventh. At the beginning I played most songs using only three note Major, Minor and Dominant chords. Then I added more complexity as I progressed.

    Have fun.
    Guy
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #58

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    Thanks Guy all helpful tips.

  10. #59

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    I like Guy's approach. I used it myself when I initially converted and was playing in a big band - the Freddie Green style.

    I haven't found the P4 equivalent of Ted Greene's chord chemistry yet but my internet connection is very slow and frustrating today - I'll look more later when it's up to speed. The facebook group you disparage has added a lot of new files, some of which draw out chord forms like what you're asking for. Suggest you go back there with your questions - someone there has what you're looking for.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/183968224067/files/

    Personally, I found it far more helpful in the long run to learn to build chords myself. This approach solidifies the understanding of the fretboard and the logic of the music if that makes sense.

    If you want a particular chord, just post back here and Guy or I will respond.

    BTW, your chord chart above shows the great weakness of std tuning. Notice that every chord is on the 'D' to little 'E' string set? Std players seem very limited to those particular strings. P4 players, like bass players, use all the strings and a lot of string skips and can switch keys much easier because the fretboard map is much simplified.

  11. #60

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    Yes 4th is was me that posted a lot of them in that group. I was creating diagrams in Illustrator which was a lot of work and posting them on there. The lack of feedback had me frustrated. I felt like i was talking to myself.

    I can easily find any individual chord myself and then there are many tools like this that accommodate P4 tuning for any chord you like but the voicings are not to pleasing to my ear and often hand.

    http://jguitar.com/chord?root=C&chor...ps=0&fingers=4

    Maybe it's just how my visual memory works, I like to digest whole sheets at a time like the diagram I posted initially.

    They are out there some where, i just need to find a few.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-07-2014 at 12:23 PM.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    Yes 4th is was me that posted a lot of them in that group. I was creating diagrams in Illustrator which was a lot of work and posting them on there. The lack of feedback had me frustrated. I felt like i was talking to myself.

    I can easily find any individual chord myself and then there are many tools like this that accommodate P4 tuning for any chord you like but the voicings are not to pleasing to my ear and often hand.

    http://jguitar.com/chord?root=C&chor...ps=0&fingers=4

    Maybe it's just how my visual memory works, I like to digest whole sheets at a time like the diagram I posted initially.

    They are out there some where, i just need to find a few.

    Max,

    I'd like to ask you this question:

    Did you really, really know the fretboard in standard tuning, that's knowing each note in all 12 keys in all positions?

    Guy
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #62

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    try this. Ross doesn't specify keys but the forms seem correct.

    http://rossingram.me/index.php/p4-chords

  14. #63
    I will stick to standard until I have another lifetime to dedicate to a new system. I am intrigued by the idea but it seems like a lot of work.

    Tenor guitars use all fifths and you get some cool voicings.

  15. #64

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    Hi Guy,

    Yes I pretty comfortable with the location of all the notes on the neck, but the semi-tone shift of the 1st and 2nd strings
    has really thrown my chord shapes off. I think I stopped consciously thinking about notes when playing and just play, what I needed came from my hands automatically.

    Now I am really forced to 'think' about every chord I play and it's really slowing me down and choking my playing.

    I figure if I can just memorise a whole bunch of basic chord shapes I can keep my improvisational repertoire flowing right away instead of feeling the setback of not having my previous array of chord voicings at hand.

    P4: Thank you very much for the Ross page link. I'd lost it. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for but his system feeds you one chord at a time and I wish they were clearer. I wonder why he's made them so tiny and impossible to see.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-07-2014 at 04:21 PM.

  16. #65

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    Tell Ross your problem...he might change it to your satisfaction. To my eyes, the dots are quite readable, the text describing the chord function less so but still doable.

    "I figure if I can just memorise a whole bunch of basic chord shapes I can keep my improvisational repertoire flowing right away instead of feeling the setback of not having my previous array of chord voicings at hand."


    If you want to keep the flow going, the Freddie Green approach covers so much and you can add to it incrementally over time.

    FWIW, I played std tuning and jazz for 25 years before switching. It wasn't easy and quite frustrating at times. Having Ross's chords wouldn't have me helped either as I could easily figure out the shapes on my own. It was the internalization that took time and that took lots of playing - there's no substitute.

  17. #66

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    4th: Not to my satisfaction.. to anyone's satisfaction. They are just laid out really awfully you have to admit. It's almost painful to read those diagrams. Why chose to to give people eye strain?

    Yes I did mention it to him months ago.. and yet they still remain ugly as sin. With all the wonderful and amazing software we have today there really is not much excuse in not being able to create nice looking and easy to read diagrams.

    One must think in attempting to convey information to people 'what is my objective'? To convey and impart information as easily as possible to facilitate almost effortless digestion or to tell people: 'these are my almost intelligible scribbles like it or lump it'. Sorry 4th but sloppiness just has never really appealed to me.

    (ps: they are not Ross's chords. They are just chords)

    I knocked these up in Illustrator for myself and others a little while ago. It's really not so hard to make this stuff visually palatable. I think if I was running the only P4 group on the internet I'd make sure my diagrams were at least pretty.

    Anyone using P4 as your standard tuning?-screen-shot-2014-01-08-06-53-02-jpg

    Anyone using P4 as your standard tuning?-melodic-minor-arpeggios2-jpg
    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-08-2014 at 08:36 AM.

  18. #67

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    It seems like you could meet your exacting standards by doing this yourself. Compile it, publish it, and market it for those coming up behind you. Good luck with your guitar journey.

  19. #68
    Hmmm...a guitar method of tuning in perfect 4ths. Reminds me of Robert Fripp and his "new standard" tuning using C-G-D-A-E-G (low to high).

  20. #69

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    Lol.. yeah maybe. Would be nice to have company though. Musical projects are so much more fun as a social activity.

    Did I mention in my initial post that this kind of exploration is a solitary endeavour.

    4th.. it was you that started this thread. Have you no intentions to take it further? How are you doing with P4? What kind of music do you play?

  21. #70

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    4th.. it was you that started this thread.

    - no, it was scatterlogic

    Have you no intentions to take it further?

    - everyday I take it farther

    How are you doing with P4?

    - taking it farther

    What kind of music do you play?

    - Jazz, which you can see and hear via the youtube channel in my sig. I've taken it way farther since those vids were posted though.

  22. #71

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    I prefer fretboard diagrams which show the note names, otherwise there's a temptation to learn just the patterns not the notes.

    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  23. #72

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    My mistake sorry 4th.

    Hey I really like your Giant Steps and All the Things You Are.. that's quite some chord gymnastics there. Nice work.

    Is the Eastman clip also played in P4?

    I see quite a lot of P4 comping vids out there almost entirely at a slow slow swing but almost nothing at fast bebop tempos. I'm thinking early Benson fire. It seems that everyone is still in learning or experimental stage and there are no masters of P4 out there that just rip the guitar up.

    Would love to get my mind blown.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    It seems that everyone is still in learning or experimental stage and there are no masters of P4 out there that just rip the guitar up.

    Tom Quayle is good, he's been playing a long time in 4ths and the teacher that taught him has been playing in 4ths a lot longer than Tom.

    Tom messing about with All the Things.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  25. #74

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    Cheers Guy..

    I'm very familiar with Mr Quayle.. but again no chords or comping in this vid.

    I am also all for learning visual shapes on guitar both for scales and chords. It's the fastest way to get on with the immediate business of actually playing music. Which incidentally was why I first picked up a guitar
    30 years ago.

    I can always work out and analyse what the notes and spellings later in my own study time.

    The analysis I believe should always come after the fact.. and not before. I see so many people who can spell every chord chord and scale note and interval.. but when it comes to the actual business of playing they are often wooden, mediocre and lack any genuine musicality.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-08-2014 at 04:56 PM.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    My mistake sorry 4th.
    - no problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    Hey I really like your Giant Steps and All the Things You Are.. that's quite some chord gymnastics there. Nice work.
    - thanks. I did the non-std keys and the key change mid-song on GS to demonstrate how p4 makes chord soloing easier but no one notices it for some reason


    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    Is the Eastman clip also played in P4?
    - everything I do is p4. I converted long ago and couldn't play std to save my life now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    I see quite a lot of P4 comping vids out there almost entirely at a slow slow swing but almost nothing at fast bebop tempos. I'm thinking early Benson fire.
    - comping at fast bebop tempos in p4 is no problem, very easy actually, easier than in std IMO.

    - Doing standalone chord solos at bebop tempos is a different animal however for anyone...actually I can't think of anyone, regardless of tuning, sitting alone playing meaningful chord solos of bebop tunes at bebop tempos. Perhaps you can point them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    It seems that everyone is still in learning or experimental stage and there are no masters of P4 out there that just rip the guitar up.
    - you're hard to satisfy...and I disagree. Tom Quayle plays single line as well as anyone IMO as well as many others like Ant Law or Matt Raines or Hutchins etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    Would love to get my mind blown.
    - Who blows your mind in std tuning?

  27. #76

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    @ 4th

    By 'gymnastics' I meant what looked like uncomfortable stretches.

    Yes I am hard to satisfy. I have standards. Don't you?

    I have grown up around some of the best musicians in the world. My father was friends with Jimi Hendrix, Mccoy Tyner, Lester Young, Amad Jamal, etc.

    I myself have personally met Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, BB.King, Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, Betty Carter, Dave Brubeck (and his whole family), Mike Stern, Art Blakey (dozens of times) Nina Simone, Wynton and Branford Marsalis, George Benson, Jacques Loussier (beautiful piano player,and an incredible human being), Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Pace De Lucia (worlds best flamenco guitarist), Juan Martin (same), Paco Pena (ditto), Zakhir Hussien (worlds No.1 tabla player unbelievable human being!) Joe Pass, Several of Bob Marley's children (various concerts), Fela Kuti and all his 27 wives, Jimmy Page and John Bonham from Led Zepplin, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Pantera (whole band), Prince (he's only about 4ft tall, lol), Chris De Burg, Bjork,Fishbone, Jools Holland,Jamiroquoi, etc, etc.

    Growing up surrounded by these people and their astounding music your entire life does something to you. It alters you for ever. You develop a standard.

    There is nothing to disagree about regarding Tom Quayle. I simply said in the video that Guy posted above that he's not playing any chords.. and he's not. What's to disagree about there? No one mentioned single line soloing. Where did you get that from?

    My entire conversation has been about chords and comping at speed in P4, you have yet to show me anything. Even your Quayle falls short there.

    Single line is easy.. it's the chord players I'm interested in.

    Ant Law and Matt Raines are both very bland and unexciting players whose abilities are grossly overrated and exaggerated often by themselves on their own web sites and forums. Sorry but they are both about as exciting as playing golf. And I hate golf.

    The only name you have mentioned so far that I respect is Alex Hutchings who in fact I chat to regularly.

    And finally yes of course there are players that can tear up guitar with
    bebop chord solos, George Benson, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass and my friend Allan Weeks in London come to mind.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-09-2014 at 06:26 AM.

  28. #77

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    With the exception of Weeks, I'm very familiar with the players you mention. None of them to my knowledge improvises chord solos at bebop tempos. I have seen them utilize canned chord licks employed for short bursts at fast tempos. Please point to one 'improvised' guitar chord (defined as at least three notes) sustained solo performance at bebop tempo - I'd like to see it. The guitar is not a piano.

  29. #78

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    Oh really.. we must live on different planets. You need to get out more.

    There are simply hardly any players alive that have this phenomenal fluid chordal vocabulary even in standard tuning. let alone on P4.

    Because you have not heard of a thing does not mean it does not exist.

    Last edited by Maxxx; 01-10-2014 at 06:33 AM.

  30. #79

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    I think the two of you are talking about two different things. Maxxx is talking about comping and P4 is talking about chord solos. No wonder you disagree. Now kiss and make up.
    Still working on it.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    Oh really.. we must live on different planets.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    You need to get out more.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    There are simply hardly any players alive that have this phenomenal fluid chordal vocabulary even in standard tuning. let alone on P4.
    I disagree with both parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    Because you have not heard of a thing does not mean it does not exist.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    I think the two of you are talking about two different things. Maxxx is talking about comping and P4 is talking about chord solos. No wonder you disagree. Now kiss and make up.
    That appears to be the problem - I thought I was very clear in my communications though.

    In the video, Benson, being the artist he is, always finds something creative to put in the mix, but that was all Rhythm comping using very std forms - but with Benson's unique flair for ideas and timing. However this is indeed very doable in p4.

    But all this is beside the point now. Maxxx is really asking for p4 comping examples. One needs a p4 jazz player in a group setting first. I'm not aware of any videos or recordings yet other than tapper Stanley Jordon, whom I'm not that familiar with.

  32. #81

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    Tasteful new video of Tom Quayle's P4 playing, great technique.

    Enjoy and be happy.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  33. #82

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    In the video, Benson, being the artist he is, always finds something creative to put in the mix, but that was all Rhythm comping using very std forms - but with Benson's unique flair for ideas and timing. However this is indeed very doable in p4.

    I realise he's playing standard forms, but that was not quite my point. It was his ability to improvise chordally at blistering speeds that interests and inspires me and I was wondering if there were any P4 players doing the same thing. As of yet I have not come across any.

    I also agree that it's entirely possible in P4. Absolutely. I try practicing this daily.

    That is a very pretty Quayle solo, very sweet. Thank you for sharing.

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    I realise he's playing standard forms, but that was not quite my point. It was his ability to improvise chordally at blistering speeds that interests and inspires me and I was wondering if there were any P4 players doing the same thing. As of yet I have not come across any.
    Benson is not really "improvising chordally" in the cut you posted. He's just comping std forms at tempo with his unique style. Chord solos and comping are completely different beasts serving different functions.

    Not many P4 players playing today are interested in bop as far as I can tell. Being a fairly new movement in guitar, most P4 players are younger and seem more interested in fusion. I'm not aware of a P4 Benson clone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    I also agree that it's entirely possible in P4. Absolutely. I try practicing this daily.
    Assuming you're familiar with Rhythm changes and std 4 note dominant (#11, b9, #9, 13), major, minor chord forms, why don't you transcribe Benson's comping in this video? It's very straight forward, there are no unusual chords, he's using a lot of cliches, no reharms or out stuff - very doable and a great learning experience.

  35. #84

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    Assuming you're familiar with Rhythm changes and std 4 note dominant (#11, b9, #9, 13), major, minor chord forms, why don't you transcribe Benson's comping in this video? It's very straight forward, there are no unusual chords, he's using a lot of cliches, no reharms or out stuff - very doable and a great learning experience.
    I just got a new Roland GC-1 Strat and a GR-55 Synth on Friday... soon as I managed to create some nice jazz and fusion sounds with this gear I will be doing just as you suggested.

  36. #85

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    Oh damn I just typed my life story in here and lost it when a bandleader called me with dates - I hit command-3 for Google calendar and my life was eradicated in a flash... Oh, well - priorities I guess LOL.

    In a nutshell I played standard for about 30 years and then switched to P4. I found the latter much more natural almost instantly, and I was pretty comfortable within 2 weeks. Now standard seems just nutty to me, though I understand the value very much for playing solo guitar. If I were trying to do something like Martin Taylor I would probably prefer standard.

    I see some folks bringing science in on this subject. I read a good chunk about Music Learning Theory (e.g. Sequences in Music Learning by Gordon) and the concept of tactile association is relevant here. I mean IMHO - I have no credentials in psychology.

    BTW I'm new to the forum and hello!

    Michael

  37. #86

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    Hey Mike, there is a P4 page on facebook, look it up...everything you ever wanted to know and then some, its a active forum with a lot of guys posting.....

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by pswoods View Post
    In a nutshell I played standard for about 30 years and then switched to P4. I found the latter much more natural almost instantly, and I was pretty comfortable within 2 weeks. Now standard seems just nutty to me...
    That sounds very much like my experience except it took me a year to match my former abilities. I was going on both reason and faith...and probably a lot of stubbornness


    Quote Originally Posted by pswoods View Post
    ...though I understand the value very much for playing solo guitar. If I were trying to do something like Martin Taylor I would probably prefer standard.
    There's no doubt that Martin Taylor is in a league by himself when it comes to solo guitar but ignoring natural geniuses like him, I would argue that P4 makes solo guitar easier.

  39. #88

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    P4 has the big advantage of being symmetrical, but if you really know the notes of the fretboard in standard tuning, as I did, you'll lose too much instinctive information about note location on the high strings by changing to P4, but guitar playing is my hobby, so I've enjoyed the P4 adventure.

    Guy
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  40. #89
    Here is the facebook group:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/183968224067/

  41. #90
    I've used P4 tuning for 25 years now, and I switched from std tuning 10 days before a concert. All went well. To me it would be rediculuos to switch back to std tuning. I have never regretted switching to P4 tuning.
    P4 tuning is completely intuitiv; all the tricks, chords, scales and licks you have allways played in the 4 lower strings can immediately be transfered to all the strings.
    You simply need to unlearn all the fingerings you used when playing the unnessesary third between 2. and 3. string.

    When you learn a new scale or chord you only need to learn one version instead of 3, so your learning curve will be 3 times as steep.
    But the best part: wenn improvising you don't need to think at all, just follow your inner ear and let the fingers play what you hear inside your head.
    My soloing is much more free now that I don't need to think about positions and fingering anymore.
    It's like a subliminal hesitation factor is gone.

    The only drawbacks I can see are:
    Standard barre chords are relatively complicated to grab. (But new and interesting barre chords are easy to grab)
    Standard open string chords are gone. Classical and flamenco guitar pieces are difficult to play.
    I have solved the last problem by changing my nut:

    http://p4tuning.blogspot.no/

    Here I also explain the concept of P4 tuning a bit deeper, please have a look:-)

    Best regards, Finn

  42. #91
    GuyBoden you can solve your problem with note locations with P4 tuning if you take a look at my blog:

    http://p4tuning.blogspot.no/

    Best regards, Finn

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn Schatvet-Riisager View Post
    GuyBoden you can solve your problem with note locations with P4 tuning if you take a look at my blog:

    http://p4tuning.blogspot.no/

    Best regards, Finn
    Thanks, but it's too late, after years of practice in P4, I know all the note names on the fretboard in all keys and more importantly how they sound.

    My main point is that it wasn't worth changing to P4 from Standard tuning, because I already knew the notes on fretboard very, very, very well.

    Have fun.
    Guy
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  44. #93

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    tho p4 probably wont replace standard in my playing, i gotta thank this forum for alerting me to p4...last week i retuned one guitar to p4 (left the b & e normal pitch, dropped the other strings a half step) and instantly heard/saw tons of possibilities....i'll; probably always keep one guitar tuned to p4, it really intrigues me.

    a few years back i tried the 3rd's tuning but it didn't feel 'right'...while p4 instantly felt 'right'--in an intuitively-playing sense.

    i play bass as much as guitar...and also play plenty of mandolin/tenor banjo/violin...so using other tunings doesnt seem so daunting...

    p4 seems a valuable addition to the toolbox.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx View Post
    @ 4th

    There is nothing to disagree about regarding Tom Quayle. I simply said in the video that Guy posted above that he's not playing any chords.. and he's not. What's to disagree about there? No one mentioned single line soloing. Where did you get that from?

    My entire conversation has been about chords and comping at speed in P4, you have yet to show me anything. Even your Quayle falls short there.

    Single line is easy.. it's the chord players I'm interested in.









    Check out these videos.

    You´re right, he´s mostly a single line player, but he´s developed some of chordal vocabulary. And let´s admit it, chords are a bit tricky in P4.
    Last edited by cmedina; 02-24-2014 at 05:51 PM.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmedina View Post
    You´re right, he´s mostly a single line player, but he´s developed some of chordal vocabulary. And let´s admit it, chords are a bit tricky in P4.

    1. Quayle is a fine player.

    2. Chords are not tricky or difficult or in any way harder in P4. Fact. P4 is new and most players are still coming to terms with it. I've been playing it for over twenty years and find chords easier, not harder.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning View Post
    1. Quayle is a fine player.
    Best p4 player I´ve seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4thstuning View Post
    2. Chords are not tricky or difficult or in any way harder in P4. Fact. P4 is new and most players are still coming to terms with it. I've been playing it for over twenty years and find chords easier, not harder.
    Haven´t been in P4 as long but I think chordal arrangements are harder. Then again the styles are the styles yo, there are no rules in music and that´s why I switched.
    Last edited by cmedina; 02-24-2014 at 07:40 PM.

  48. #97

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    This is an interesting thread. I have no objection to playing in different tunings, but the issue for me is time. There is so much to learn and practice in the tuning I already know, why would I take the time to do that? I tried to learn to play DADGAD once and failed miserably. It felt like I was starting all over again - just learning basic chords.

    Just like the metric system, it's hard to overcome all those years of momentum and relearn.

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingace View Post
    This is an interesting thread. I have no objection to playing in different tunings, but the issue for me is time. There is so much to learn and practice in the tuning I already know, why would I take the time to do that? I tried to learn to play DADGAD once and failed miserably. It felt like I was starting all over again - just learning basic chords.

    Just like the metric system, it's hard to overcome all those years of momentum and relearn.
    I think P4 is defiantly worth experimenting with, even if you don´t stick with it. It will help to comprehend the fretboard and even comprehend std tuning IMO. Try it for a day or two and see it for yourself, you might even end up converting . When I find limitations I always remember myself of Django, who played like he played with only 2 fingers !
    Last edited by cmedina; 02-24-2014 at 10:36 PM.

  50. #99

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    Interesting videos above cmedina.. yes Quayles single line stuff although not my bag is certainly dextrous but his chordal fluidity seems less developed. I only see him drop the occasional chord in to punctuate his single line stuff. To me he's not really a heavy chord player at all.

    Getting the P4 chords comfortable is the challenge for me too. I had real trouble playing Rhythm Changes when I started where I'm having to play a different chord almost every beat. I was tripping over myself constantly.

    I just had to humble myself and slow the whole thing down to a ballad tempo until my hands and brain got the new chord forms and then slowly increase the tempo. After a few months now things are getting easier and I'm nearly at the brisk pace I used to be with standard tuning.

    Thinking about it I think it actually took me longer to learn it in standard many many years ago than it is taking me to relearn it now in P4. I also get frustrated because I'm just impatient with myself as it feels like having to learn to walk all over again. I beat myself up more now if I make mistakes than I used to when first learning guitar.

    Running through the tunes I'm re-learning learning every day is definitely speeding things up. First thing I try to do on waking up is play through the chords in a few standards. It is getting easier and sounding more and more the music my head.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 02-28-2014 at 04:19 AM.

  51. #100

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    Cool Maxxx, keep up the hard working with it !

    here's a video of Tom attempting to play jazz (grins)



    And this is Todd, he has a method on chord melody for P4 (http://www.amazon.com/Fishin-For-Gri.../dp/B002BL1VG8) out, which I haven't got.