The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    In case you want to skip to where GVC talks about the A minor triad/ F major triad harmonization, it starts at about 13:00 on Disk 3: Part 1:

    GVE: Alright, I'll tell you why. Now we're talking about '37, '38.
    Guitar players were rhythm players at that time, in the big bands and
    99% of them were playing badly voiced chords -- barber shop chords we used to
    call them, where they were all six string chords with, like the big F chord
    or the E major chord, there are only 3 notes in them the rest are doubles so
    ... I showed Allan some of the voicings too where you play a Dm7 with the F major
    triad and the D on the 5th string instead of a big F chord or a bad sounding minor.

    So the guitar players had trouble at that time playing that F major chord with those fingers
    so I figured I'm going to throw that into the scale.
    In the back of the book if you look there's the C scale with the A minor ...
    I'm still not clear on what GVE is saying, but it sounds like he's thinking of xxx565 xxx767 xxx988 as a II V I, as a bit of a lesson to rhythm players who were are all banging out cowboy or barber shop voicings. The fact that later he does it with a A minor triad shows he doesn't think the A minor triad there is wrong or sounds bad.
    Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 12-27-2013 at 02:08 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Yes, that's my interpretation too. The F chord is actually iim7 without the root - the last three chords are iim7, V7, I. The iim7 and the V7 are rootless.

  4. #78

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    There is a lot of ambiguity in his harmonisation. For instance, the chords xx323x and xx545xx could be seen as Dm and Em, or, more imaginatively, and maybe more interestingly, as G9 to CMaj7. Or even Dm to G6.

    That is why I view the line as a sequence of cadences, rather than the harmonisation of a major scale. It's fun to speculate.

  5. #79

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    I went over to Amazon to order the book. The price of this book is $235. I have to say that at that price I'll have to pass.

    Sounds like a good book though.

  6. #80

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    Amazon does come up with some ridiculous prices for out of print books sometimes. I got mine from ebay for about the same price as a set of strings.

  7. #81

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    Yeah. I got mine on ebay for BIN $5 (+ $15 for international shipping from the USA to Canada). I know that seller had a few copies at the time.

    I don't see any at the moment, but there is often a couple copies posted. Just wait and I'm sure one will pop up.

  8. #82

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    It's available as a pdf download from djangobooks.com for $10, and since it's only about 40 pages it's easy to print.

  9. #83

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    George Van Eps Guitar Method-gve-forms-jpg

    Hey guys, thought you'll might shed some light on this. I was checking out the streamlined GVE guitar method book, and the forms outlined in the very first example caught my eye. It deals with harmonizing the C maj scale in triads, with the scale degrees moving linearly as the top voice. if you look at the attached screenshot, the 6th degree of the scale, A is harmonized as an Fmaj (2nd inv) triad as opposed to a 2nd inv A min triad. given the rest of the scale degrees are harmonized with their respective diatonic triads, any reason why Fmaj is favored over Amin for the 6th degree?

    Thanks.

  10. #84

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    This is well known. My interpretation is that he is providing a IV (or ii)/ V/ I cadence, F or Dm7, G7, C, which is much more useful.
    Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 07-21-2014 at 03:15 AM.

  11. #85

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    As there are only three notes, there are a few ways of thinking of these chords, e.g.

    C / F6 / G6 / Dm7 / G / Dm7 / G7 / C

  12. #86

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    Rob MacKillop, I didn't know that you played Jazz too, nor that you participated in this forum. Just last week I was enjoying your YouTube videos of Baroque guitar. Most people play it with a tone that doesn't appeal to me, but your sound and playing is gorgeous. So very nice. I want a Baroque Guitar now!

    After watching your videos I wound up working up a bunch of BG pieces on my steel string tuned to DADGAD. I don't really care much for the way pieces originally written for BG sound on a modern classical, but the steel string gives more overtone shimmer and the DADGAD tuning opens up a lot of campanella options, a little like the BG. It'll have to do for me until I get a BG (plus, it's great practice working up things like that in DADGAD because it helps steer one away from playing all those pesky DADGAD cliches that sit right under your fingers).


    *****************

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand; I just looked through my 30 year old copy of volume one of the GVE book and all of his closed position triad studies use the Am for the 6th degree and not F, although I didn't find the exact study shown in AleikhBaba's post. Is this a difference between the streamlined version and the older one I have?

  13. #87

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    Hi circle110. Yes, I'm the same guy. Music is just music for me, without frontiers. I bet your DADGAD arrangements of baroque guitar music sounds wonderful. I might try it myself!

    BTW, the notes of Am are the same as a rootless Fmaj7...but, as I said before, there are a number of ways of interpreting these chords.

  14. #88

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    That's great Rob. If you do get around to making those DADGAD arrangements, let me know. I'd be interested to hear them. I'll do the same when I have videoed mine.

    Yes, I understand that Am = Fmaj7 minus root. As you say there are many ways of interpreting such chords. Heck, that Am triad could be seen as any of these C major diatonic chords: C6, Dm9, Emsus4(b13) [a bit far fetched], Fmaj7, G13sus4, Am or Bm7b5sus4(b9) [pretty far fetched].

    I see what you are saying about the usage of F major in place of Am creating a IV-V-I or ii-V-I chord sequence in the Van Eps exercise. It's just that in my edition, he doesn't do that. It's always a minor triad on the 6th degree.

    For decades I have kept the Van Eps book on my practice room shelf and regularly pull it down and open it to a random page and work through whatever is presented on that page. Always challenging, always rewarding.
    Many years ago I went through the whole book in sequence over a period of several months. That was a heck of a lot of work but well worth it.

    My two desert island guitar study books would be the Van Eps volumes and Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist. I could happily keep busy eating mangoes and studying those books until the rescue ship came!
    [If I got exhausted studying those books, I could always spin my tuners into DADGAD and play some Gaspar Sanz.]


    Michael

  15. #89

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    Bm7b5sus4(b9)

    That's so obvious, I'm kicking myself for not seeing it

    That island sounds inviting!

  16. #90

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    One thing I've always found the hardest about the George Van Eps method is the legato. I took a class with one of George's students and he was incredibly strict about this (apparently George was too). I'm referring to the top section on page 5.

    “It is important to remember that the exercises in this book should be practiced very legato. In order to do so, the notes must be given their full value and must be connected with no pause between them. The changes from formation to formation must be executed in the least amount of time. Do not stint the value of the notes in order to give yourself time to make the next formation. In making these quick shifts, do not rush the tempo. Plant your fingers solidly and firmly on the fingerboard. After releasing the pressure on a formation get used to forming the next position while the hand is in motion. Do not wait until the hand arrives at the location before forming the fingers. This saves time and naturally goes hand in hand with the legato principle."

    "The reason legato is being stressed so much is because it is the hardest form of phrasing for the guitar. Staccato, the reverse, is the natural form and therefore the easiest one. In practicing legato remember to re-apply the pressure for each formation. Do not slide around holding the pressure, yet do not go to the extreme by lifting the fingers too far off the strings during the change. Eliminate all waste motion with the fingers. The closer they are to the fingerboard, the less time it takes to place them. The mechanics of these exercises have been carefully planned and tested."
    Last edited by Dana; 07-29-2014 at 06:32 PM.

  17. #91

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    This is a printing error don't justify it as something else . A harmonized C scale ....Amin is the 6th degree!

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcwv
    This is a printing error don't justify it as something else . A harmonized C scale ....Amin is the 6th degree!
    It is definitely not a printing error.

    A couple of years ago, I posted a link to Ted Greene's recorded interview with Van Eps that can be heard at TedGreene.com. Van Eps discusses why he did that. Search this website for the post if you're interested in listening to the interview.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Bm7b5sus4(b9)

    That's so obvious, I'm kicking myself for not seeing it
    I know, I know.

    You have to consider that it's coming from an odd guy like me that spends his time when waiting in line at the grocery store thinking about stuff like "what intervals are the notes of a Bb13 when superimposed over F#m?".

    (ignoring enharmonic arguments: Maj3/b6/maj7/9/b5/6/b9)


    Exercises like that will either 1) keep my mind sharp in rapidly approaching old age, or 2) drive me insane.

    At least it keeps from from getting angry at the lady in front of me that holds up the checkout line for 10 minutes digging through her purse to find a 50 cent coupon.

  20. #94

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    I studied with James Chirillo, and he also emphasized the legato bit with the GVE Method ebook. I still refer back to those studies, as I find them more comprehensive than the series he later published (even though the method book is so short).

    The triadic studies are great for comping "on the fly", as Steve Herberman puts it. I am making an effort to avoid clinging to the ol' grips and branching out into movable triads. GVE also helps you look at comping as a horizontal craft rather than a string of vertical harmonies that jump all over the place.

    Julian Lage said something interesting to that effect of practicing compin interms of key centers instead of progressions. Anyway, off to the shed.

  21. #95

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    That last comment is interesting!

  22. #96

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    Rob,

    Thanks for taking an interest, I love your videos on GVE. I have been experimenting with triadic movements on my classical. Since the intonation is out on the lower strings, I have been practicing comping ideas on the top three strings. I am discovering pianoistic sounds, and findin new movement oppurtunities in the top 3. I will upload my explorations to this thread soon.

  23. #97

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    Please do! It is my pleasure. These old guys really knew the guitar, and saw it in a largely different way than we do today. So it is always good to go backwards and try to understand their thinking. From my experience, I can definitely say that what they have to say is always relevant. And GVE understood the guitar better than most.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Please do! It is my pleasure. These old guys really knew the guitar, and saw it in a largely different way than we do today. So it is always good to go backwards and try to understand their thinking. From my experience, I can definitely say that what they have to say is always relevant. And GVE understood the guitar better than most.
    My feelings exactly.

    Most of the guitarists from that era, beginning with Eddie Lang, listened heavily to the works of the Neoclassical composers such as Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, de Falla and Albeniz among others.

    This showed up in both written and recorded compositions as well as their approach to accompaniment and definitely informed their use of chord substitutions. They were open-minded about music and many of them, such as Carl Kress, George Van Eps, Frank Victor and George M. Smith played on pop music recording dates, motion picture soundtracks, radio programs and in dance bands.

  25. #99

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    Just curious, do you guys recommend going through all the exercise first in the key of C and then going back and transposing them into the other keys, or going through all the keys lesson by lesson as GVE suggests in the book?

    I am tempted to go through everything in C first.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Hello Everyone,
    I thought I would chime in with a few comments regarding this discussion.

    @Rob: It's a wonderful thing that you're doing here. Helping keep this material alive and in the consciousness of guitarists is most commendable.

    @FatJeff: Harmonic Mechanisms was published two decades before Van Eps' death. The distillation of GVE's lifes work work to which you refer was personally done by George and his daughter, Kay.

    The question regarding the harmonization of the sixth degree was discussed in another thread on this forum some time back. If you go to the Ted Greene website, the taped interview TG did with GVE is available for listening. Van Eps reveals why he did that.

    As for any changes in Van Eps' thinking over the years, I can't pretend to know what went on in his mind but he does stress many times throughout Harmonic Mechanisms the continued importance of triads.

    Many guitarists who have only heard GVE's mellower fingerstyle recordings from the 1960s sometimes have difficulty understanding why Van Eps was considered the BEST guitarist of his generation as well as his emphasis on the importance of triads. By listening to earlier recordings, we can hear that he possessed not only a staggering command of his instrument but also an understanding of harmony that was deeper than most of his contemporaries.

    Here is a clip of GVE playing Back Home Again in Indiana with Jess Stacy. Notice some of the things he does with triads.
    In the pickup measure he plays a Bb triad over C7 to create a C9sus4 sound followed by an Am triad for a C13 sound.
    In the first measure he plays a C triad over F for an Fmaj9 sound then a Bbm triad over Eb7.
    The second measure begins with an Am over D7 followed by a nod to the dominant seventh exercise from his method book.
    The third measure begins with a half-step slide from Ebm to Em then Fdim triad all played over G7.
    All in all, some really slick playing. I'll leave you to delve deeper into the tune as you wish.
     
    Jerome you got me hooked.


    I found this recording and several other cuts of GVE playing with Jess Stacy available on iTunes for those of you like me who live on their phones and download everything.

    Jess Stacy Piane Solos

    There's two albums. One with eight tracks and the other with the eight plus eight additional tracks (the additional eight are sans guitar, probably a different album added on).

    The Rollini track "Somebody Loves Me" is on iTunes but is part of a compilation.

    Adrian Rollini 1934-1938

    I know Rollini played with different guitarists so I don't know if GVE is the guitarist on all the tracks but there is plenty of guitar heard on all the tracks.

    CB
    Last edited by TheGrandWazoo; 03-22-2015 at 08:39 PM.