The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #526

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    David - thanks for these insights, so much to explore. That's a great sensation when you begin to hear an element reliably (structure, progression, line, pattern, voicing, whatever) and then notice it everywhere as if previously it was in plain sight, just beyond your ability to perceive.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I'm wondering what happens when there's enough familiarity that you can switch cycles within a line and change the melodic line.
    Wow yes...mind blown.

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  3. #527

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    Hi

    First, what is the MRSVP? (don't have the page with the term, probably misspelled). I have only recently started to think of the triads with bass notes, so theres even more now?

    I have had two ideas recently regarding the cycles. One is to "improvise" cycles meaning you pick two cycles and mess around with them both and switch between them ad libitium. I guess that can be done with all cycles at all time, but that meal is a bit too big for me just now.

    The other idea is to sing the "bass" note or whatever you would call it in a cycle. I have some voice register problems, but one can basically practice any step of a scale by singing that step consistently and move along with the chords.

    Example: cycle two in C major.

    Practicing thirds. Chords: C,Dm,Em,F,G,Am,Bo.
    Singing notes: e,f,g,a,b,c,d

    You can practice hearing any step this way!

  4. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Hi
    First, what is the MRSVP? (don't have the page with the term, probably misspelled). I have only recently started to think of the triads with bass notes, so theres even more now?
    Hi - MSRP is defined in the Goodchord books as Melodic Strand Replication Procedure, and "...like melodic DNA that makes up harmony". From my limited experiences, aurally it's a distinct melody or canon implicit in each cycle in a scale.

    The books confirm that the voices systematically pass a melody around in a distinctive way that correlates with the particular cycle played in a given scale. And the order that each succeeding voice takes up the melody relates to the voicing used to play the cycle. So following on what David suggested, change cycles to alter the melody, and potentially choose voicings within a cycle to control where a line appears.

    Singing any of the voices in the cycle you would experience the melodies without the distraction of making the vertical stack of pitches happen in time on the guitar, so that's a good suggestion yaclaus.

  5. #529

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    Sharing a reference I just created. It charts out all the 4 chord (triad) sequences drawn from major, harmonic major, melodic minor and harmonic minor. It includes the cyclical movements as well as combinations of several cycles.
    Like the almanac, the idea is to voice lead them starting on each inversion.

    This is complete overkill, but I can't help myself sometimes.
    I partially blame/thank Jake Acci for introducing me to a cool internet permutation tool.

  6. #530

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    There's no kill like overkill! Could you share the permutation tool with us?

  7. #531

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    I admit that my theory is weak. I just never spent a lot of time on it although I should have. Too much acoustic sing along Beatles and the like and basic rock band material but yes some Steely Dan etc.

    A lot of the earlier links don't work and I'm not sure I get some of what's being put forth because it's worded as if the reader already has an idea of what's going on.

    Where's a good place to start in this thread or should I bone up on basics first?

    Thanks

  8. #532

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    The thread is referential to a collection of books.
    In that they are out of print, some recent posts are about how to procure them.
    There are many posts scattered throughout that give insight into some of what these books contain.
    See what you can find and try it out. Hands on is the way to go with these books.

  9. #533

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    Thanks for the reply. I looked a few pages back and I'm getting a better picture now of what's going on. At first I thought the numbers and notes pertained to specific frets and was wondering how anyone could have executed some of those. LOL

  10. #534

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    Recently someone wrote to me asking how this material can be used on a standard. Great and extremely time consuming question but one worth getting into.
    Anybody want to suggest a tune (let's not do ATTYA cycle 4) that we can collectively pool our ears and experiments on to harmonize with some of this material?
    Sort of a collective workshop on new sounds over old chestnuts?

    For those of you looking for the books, I'm organizing the remaining copies and will get ready to put them out for final sales and shipping. I had some bad experience with the US Postal Service losing, shredding, misplacing and black-hole-ing copies of these precious books so I hate losing them to the void. They also don't seem to be able to track down or find things after they are lost so I'll figure something else out.

    For now, let's take a look at some actual songforms and the Almanacs' treatment of them. The beauty of this is, nobody has any idea of any "proper" way to use this material so it should be very interesting to see everyone's different approaches. Should be very interesting!

    David

  11. #535

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    For those of you looking for the books, I'm organizing the remaining copies and will get ready to put them out for final sales and shipping. I had some bad experience with the US Postal Service losing, shredding, misplacing and black-hole-ing copies of these precious books so I hate losing them to the void. They also don't seem to be able to track down or find things after they are lost so I'll figure something else out.



    David
    Any chance you'll ship international orders? I've been on the list for months...

    Thanks!

  12. #536

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearhead
    Any chance you'll ship international orders? I've been on the list for months...

    Thanks!
    Anybody on the forum know a way to send international packages besides USPS? Honestly, I've sent books overseas and it cost me $60. It seems an extortionate rate. Gearhead, if you want to go ahead or can suggest an alternative (I just handed off two sets of books headed to UK and France to friends traveling within US, and they acted as couriers.)
    Yes, I'll do that. You make the call. Sorry these are the options I'm aware of.
    David

  13. #537

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearhead
    Any chance you'll ship international orders? I've been on the list for months...

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Anybody on the forum know a way to send international packages besides USPS? Honestly, I've sent books overseas and it cost me $60...
    Yes, I'll do that. You make the call. Sorry these are the options I'm aware of.
    David
    Gearhead should just set up an account with Buy in the USA and UK, ship globally with Borderlinx . And TruthHertz could post the books to Borderlinx in Ohio. Gearhead arranges to have Borderlinx ship them to him by DHL to wherever he is.

    I bought 5 books from TruthHertz and he posted them promptly. My parcel had a chargeable weight of 5.65Kg or about 12.5 pounds. The 3 tomes weigh about 3 Kg. Make it 4Kg with packing. (Lcm x Wcm x Hcm/5000 = dimensional weight in Kilogrammes. Billable weight is the larger of actual or dimensional weight.) Figure a charge of $7 per Kilogramme to Europe. That's about $28. There are credit card discounts that could help lower the cost. Check them out.

    It is all trackable as Borderlinx is DHL essentially.

    The books are really worth the cost of international postage. Grab them before they are all gone. Otherwise, be prepared to pay over $350 per volume if you can find them.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 09-22-2016 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #538

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    For those of you looking for the books, I'm organizing the remaining copies and will get ready to put them out for final sales and shipping. I had some bad experience with the US Postal Service losing, shredding, misplacing and black-hole-ing copies of these precious books so I hate losing them to the void. They also don't seem to be able to track down or find things after they are lost so I'll figure something else out.
    I'm very interested in the books. I did send several PMs but never got a reply. I have a MyUs address so shipping shouldn't be a problem.

    let me know if it's possible to buy the books.

    best regards Per

  15. #539

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Recently someone wrote to me asking how this material can be used on a standard. Great and extremely time consuming question but one worth getting into.
    Anybody want to suggest a tune (let's not do ATTYA cycle 4) that we can collectively pool our ears and experiments on to harmonize with some of this material?
    Sort of a collective workshop on new sounds over old chestnuts?


    David
    David, what about a tune like "Nefertiti?" Slower tempo and slow enough harmonic rhythm, some interesting root movements. Although finding a chart that everyone agrees upon may be a bit challenging.

    We could always do Stella or Falling Grace. Lots of harmony to be explored there.

  16. #540

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    Hello everybody,
    I realized that the various voicing type in the cycles have a "fingerprint" made by the voice formula
    (that sometimes correspond to a chord voicing, sometimes don't)

    I try to explain:
    1) Piano voicing, drop2, drop3, drop 2&3 and drop 2&4 voicings are actually different assembly of the same voices 1,3,5,7.
    Piano voicing is the plain 1357, drop3 voicing is 1753, etc...
    In the end the voice movement on the single string is always the same. What is hanging is the "stack" where the cycle starts.
    I think this is related to what Mick goodrick refers to the M.S.R.P

    2) On the same principle, Quartal voicing are different combination of 1,3,4,7

    3) Triad over bass I is about voice 1,2,5,7

    4) Triad over bass II is about 1,2,4,7

    5) spread clusters is about 1,2,3,7


    (I hope I was clear enough about my point...)

    in brief, the considered voicing so far were:

    1 3 5 7
    1 3 4 7
    1 2 5 7
    1 2 4 7
    1 2 3 7

    my question is: does it make sense to explore all the possible combinations of 4 (3 for triads) notes?
    (think to all voicing containing the 6th grade of the scale)

    There's no reason to stop, so I could find cycles for any of the combinations... once the pattern is found, it's easily computable, but I'm afraid it would result in a useless list of voicing noone would use...


    What do you think?
    e_del

  17. #541

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    as a complement to my previous post, here is the complete development of the 1 3 5 7 voicings, with inversions

    1 3 5 7
    piano 1


    3 1 5 7
    drop3 2

    5 1 3 7
    drop2 3

    7 1 3 5
    piano 4
    1 3 7 5
    drop2&3 1


    3 1 7 5
    dbldrop 2&3 2

    5 1 7 3
    drop2&3 3

    7 1 5 3
    drop2&3 4
    1 5 3 7
    drop 2&4 1


    3 5 1 7
    drop2&3 2

    5 3 1 7
    dbldrop 2&3 3

    7 3 1 5
    drop2&3 4
    1 5 7 3
    drop2 1


    3 5 7 1
    piano 2

    5 3 7 1
    drop3 3

    7 3 5 1
    drop2 4
    1 7 3 5
    drop3 1


    3 7 1 5
    drop2 2

    5 7 1 3
    piano 3

    7 5 1 3
    drop3 4
    1 7 5 3
    dbldrop 2&3 1


    3 7 5 1
    drop2&3 2

    5 7 3 1
    drop2&3 3

    7 5 3 1
    dbldrop 2&3 4

    all the permutations are covered through the various voicings, but the pattern for each single voice is the same.
    e.g., talking of cycle 2:
    root doesn't move
    3rd descend 1 step (diatonic)
    5th descend 1 step (diatonic)
    7th descend 1 step (diatonic)

    Cycle 2 has this 0 -1 -1 -1 pattern repeating through the chords, whichever the voices are stacked...
    cycle 3 works the same, only with a different pattern, so it does cycle 4, etc etc...

  18. #542

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    Three note diatonic structures:

    organized by the diatonic interval in between the 1st to the 2nd note and then the 2nd to the 3rd.

    Cluster

    Close

    2 2
    2 6
    6 2

    Open
    3 7
    7 3
    7 7


    7th (no 5th)

    Close
    2 3
    3 5
    5 2

    Open
    4 6
    7 4
    6 7

    Suspended

    Close
    2 4
    4 4
    4 2

    Open
    5 5
    7 5
    5 7

    7th (no 3rd)

    Close
    2 5
    5 3
    3 2

    Open
    6 4
    7 6
    4 7

    Triads

    Close
    3 3
    3 4
    4 3

    Open
    5 6
    6 5
    6 6

    The possibilities of permutation is a vast rabbit hole, so how then should a useable or useless chord voicing be defined?
    Some will draw the line at what is playable or sonically understandable? I extend the playable parameter by expressing impossible stretches in sequential dyads. Are we better off perceiving each structure as a unique static chord or as
    a variation on a more common chord function arrived at by moving a note(s) to an adjacent scale tone?
    No one size fits all answer to be found.

    e_del,

    Using a permutation tool, it is easy to chart out all the possible note combinations derived from a given note collection.
    Have you done any programming that can organize the structures that are inversions of each other?

  19. #543

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako

    e_del,

    Using a permutation tool, it is easy to chart out all the possible note combinations derived from a given note collection.
    Have you done any programming that can organize the structures that are inversions of each other?
    Actually not...
    The 1 3 5 7 permutations I wrote in my example come from the development of the various voicing we use on the guitar.

    I realized that in the end all the possible combinations were covered, and that was a "a-ha" moment for me, that made me think about all the other possibilities...

    It shouldn't be too hard to develop a routine that expands all the combinations of a pitch collection... but would it help? I mean, apart the academic interest, would any player find it worth using it? I would get lost in such massive dataset...

  20. #544

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    Hello everybody,
    I've almost finished a new version of a online guitar-oriented chord cycles app, and I need some advice about some "standard" fingering option for the more unusual voice sets...

    Trying to explain.
    if we consider the normal 1-3-5-7 voicing, we have the "standard" combination on the various string sets like
    - "piano style" : 1,3,5,7 on strings 4,3,2,1, or 5,4,3,2, etc, etc...
    - drop 2 : 1,5,7,3 on strings 4,3,2,1, 5,4,3,2, etc, etc...
    - drop 3 : 1,7,3,5 on strings 6,4,3,2, or 5,3,2,1
    - drop 2&3 : ...
    - etc.. etc...

    The usual drop voicing basically cover all the 1,3,5,7 combination, that are more or less "left hand friendly", and I present them in a pre-complied list of options.

    My problem comes with the less usual voicing like triad+Bass, etc...
    Basically what you come up is a combination of voices 1,3,4,7, or 1,2,3,7, or 1,2,4,7, or 1,2,5,7...
    I want, if possible, to list some default string set option for each voicing, but I'm having some trouble figuring out what are the most useful.
    What do you think? Do you have any suggestion?

    (Simply presenting all the string set combinations would result in a mass of unnecessary options. If needed, the user will be able to vary the standard ones as it wishes)

    thank you in advance to anyone willing to help
    Enrico

  21. #545

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    Some chords in this rather large collection are just not playable.
    This leaves us with 2 basic options:

    1. skip over and ignore such chords which still leaves more than a few choices.

    2. develop strategies to play such chords using a non-simultaneous broken style approach.

    I opt for the latter of the two.

    Busy the next few days but if you give one example I can detail how I might approach it.

  22. #546

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    Thanks bako!
    Would be great if you could suggest also the "least dangerous" fingerings/string set to insert as a default when that particular voicing is selected...

  23. #547

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako

    Some chords in this rather large collection are just not playable.
    This leaves us with 2 basic options:

    1. skip over and ignore such chords which still leaves more than a few choices.

    2. develop strategies to play such chords using a non-simultaneous broken style approach.

    I opt for the latter of the two.

    Busy the next few days but if you give one example I can detail how I might approach it.
    Yes -- #2, otherwise known as "arpeggios!" Great idea!

    When I did the "summer jazz camp" with Mick in 2009, people asked about the "non-playable" chords. One idea from Mick was to try changing some of the chords to "9th" chords (2-3-5-7); of course, that's probably "Volume 4!"

    Another option was to not think like a solo guitarist, and use your band-mates to hit other notes while you play two or three notes.

  24. #548

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    Here is a little preview video of my new chord cycle application...
    I hope you like the new format.
    It took some time, but it's almost ready, just a matter of adjusting some detail and the theme colors.
    Stay tuned...

    Enrico


  25. #549

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    It looks great! Thanks Enrico

  26. #550

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    Enrico,

    After watching your tool video, I understand what you are after.

    1,3,4,7, or 1,2,3,7, or 1,2,4,7, or 1,2,5,7...
    While your tool can play these notes with ease, few people can.
    These are all variants of 1,3,5,7 physically speaking.
    Some voicings are playable on some string sets, on some upper frets by some people.

    One trick that works at times is to displace the bass note down an octave

    C X X E F B is more possible to play than X X C E F B

    The number of possibilities of how to organize a broken chord approach are way over the top for what you are
    trying to present. Perhaps a generic sequential dyad approach might be the way to go.

    So C E F B is presented on consecutive strings but sounds CE > EF > FB.

    C > EFB is good in this instance but the challenging stretches occur in different parts of the voicing when we invert and will inevitably present problems.

    I address this situation on a case by case basis. The effort is rewarded because these broken approaches can also be applied to the playable structures.

    Sometimes what is needed musically is to state the harmonic color in a single gesture.
    The best we can do in that circumstance is to edit the unplayable structure to the note combination that best defines the harmonic intent of the chord.

    For C E F B - I would play E F B or perhaps C F B