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A framework I thought of yesterday after reading David's last post to help organize choosing cycles from the perspective of representing a function and reaching an arrival point. These assignments were made quickly and I'm not even sure that I fully agree. Modify to whatever sounds right to you.This can be applied to any scale type or even scale pairs as well as triad over bass, quartal cycles, etc. It just requires deciding which structures can function as extensions and which are passing chords.
Ima7 - Cma7Extensions: Em7 ... Am7
Passing chords: Dm7 ... Fma7 ... G7 ... Bm7b5
IIm7 - Dm7Extensions: Fma7 ... Am7 ... Cma7 ... Bm7b5
Passing chords: Em7 ... G7
IIIm7 - Em7Extensions: G7 ... Bm7b5 ... Cma7
Passing chords: Fma7 ... Am7 ... Dm7
IVma7 - Fma7Extensions: Am7 ... Cma7 ... Em7 ... Dm7 ... Bm7b5
Passing chords: G7
V7 - G7
Extensions: Bm7b5 ... Dm7 ... Fma7 ... Em7
Passing chords: Am7 ... Cma7
VIm7 - Am7
Extensions: Cma7 ... Em7 ... Fma7
Passing chords: Bm7b5 ... Dm7 ... G7
VIIm7b5 - Bm7b5
Extensions: Dm7 ... Fma7 ... G7
Passing chords: Cma7 ... Em7 ... Am7
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05-20-2016 06:49 AM
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Wow. You're fast!
Originally Posted by bako
I'm exploring this very slowly, aurally and one cycle at a time.
The gist of it being that from the time a chord in a given measure is played, 'til the point at which a target chord is arrived at in a tune, much can transpire.
In traditional harmony, it can go straight from chord to chord, or incorporate any number of detours (walking up diatonically, use of turnarounds, secondary dominants, side slipping, modal interchange and dominants, reharms... all the stuff beyond just "arriving") and getting from start to finish can be elegantly accomplished through any number of steps (beats, chords, lines) depending on which cycle you employ.
So if your chord progression makes a cycle 6 progression in the tune, let's say it goes from CMaj7 to an Am chord, you might use
CMaj7 | Amin
C Maj7| E7 |Amin
C Maj7| Bmin| E7| Amin
etc.
but why not arrive with a voice led line of convergence?
You can voice lead directly in two chords cycle 6
C Maj7| Amin
three chords cycle 7:
C Maj7| Bdim| Amin
four chords cycle 5:
C, G, D-, A-
Five chords cycle 4:
C, F, Bdim, E-, A-
Six chords cycle 6:
C, D-, E-, F, G7, A-
Seven chords cycle 3:
C, E-, G7, Bdim, D-, F, A-
Pardon my loose nomenclature, I assume you all know basic chord anatomy implied by the reduced symbolism.
The point being that cycles can be inserted within the parameters of two chords to create a harmonic journey different from that of convention. Knowledge of chordal and harmonic context is required of course, especially if you're substituting a different scale in a modal interchange situation, but I think this does open up some interesting implications for exploration of this material.
As Bako says, I'm not sure I fully agree, but it's an interesting use that you might chew on and voice your thoughts on. And always, these voice led progressions are so elusively melodic that a 5 chord cycle 4 progression does not sound like chords moving in fourths.
Now when I own this knowledge, then we'll see a happy me.
David
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This very second? All of them. By the end of the day? That may change. It depends on who's orders arrive in the mail. Sorry, but it's getting really low on some volumes. I did put aside reserve books for international forum members who expressed interest. I've been trying to find a less expensive way to ship. They've gone out to some members who have domestic connexions (a Canadian member has a pickup point just over the border...) but at such a great delivery expense, $66 in one case, I sought more viable alternatives. Originally Posted by mikostep
Brief interest was expressed as somebody approached Mick about taking over republication of all Goodchord material, but the party never got back to Mick so we'll just say this is what's out there.
David
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I have been reading this thread on and off over a period of time, but never had anything to post. However, I have been thinking about this and felt it was time. For me, it was a very fortunate occurrence that The Podium, in its old location, sold these books when they were in print. I knew nothing of the author or the books, but one of the people who worked there was a 1970s graduate of Berklee College of Music. I don't recall if he knew Mick Goodrick or not, but at that time, the school was apparently very much into the Schillinger approach, and apparently the school was originally built around it. Anyway, I purchased all three volumes that you guys are discussing here, along with the rhythm book of that series. I also purchased the original pair of Schillinger books on Composition at an online used bookstore. This was all around the same time when the Goodrick books were in publication. This person at The Podium told me that, to really understand the Goodrick books, you had to understand Schillinger's approach. Around the time that I got the Schillinger books (expensive!!!), which were published in the 1940s, I also got a version of Walter Piston's Harmony book from that same era because the Schillinger books references it and because I had read elsewhere that the Piston book was changed over the years after that publication.
Anyway, I have a wealth of information on my shelf as represented in all these books that seem to be related across history. I have read some of Schillinger, but it would take some serious study to get through them. I "dabble" on and off with the Goodrick books, as it seems many do. Lately, I have been really digging in again, probably because I recently got a nice used Godin nylon string Multiac Encore that makes playing these cycles rather easy on the hands.
Lately, what I have been finding most useful is NOT making these books complicated through endless analysis, but instead, just playing through the cycles and HEARING what sounds they produce and then playing with them to hear what I can do with them. Fingerstyle is great for these, since many would be otherwise unplayable. This probably seems overly simplistic, but in the end, music is really all about what sounds we make and how these communicate to other people. I can readily see how, over time, just playing through this material could begin to alter how I approach the fretboard and music in general. These cycles gradually become the basic musical vocabulary. I think the ear, rather than the mind, is the best judge of what to use where and when.
This approach requires little more than a solid knowledge of where the notes are on the fretboard. You just have to be able to quickly "see" this stuff on the fretboard to play it. I got this ability from a book by Ted Green called "Chord Chemistry" years ago. In the beginning of that book, he proposed a very simple daily exercise that is far superior to anything else I have ever seen for solidly getting the fretboard in hand and mind. A lot of people have apparently made a lot of money with all manner of publications on how to learn the fretboard, but Ted Greene did it in one small paragraph, almost as an afterthought, that only takes a few minutes a day. I can readily translate the notes in the Goodrick books to the fretboard and hear how they sound. I like the fact that the cycles are presented as letter notes rather than standard notation because that does not suggest where or how to play them.
I don't consider myself a jazz guitarist, or really anything specific other than that I use my fingers instead of a pick and enjoy learning new things and playing. I have played a long time, but am primarily self-taught. I have played in a number of live group situations, and did a stint for a couple of years back in the 70s on the Holiday Inn and supper club/resort circuit full time as an AF of M sideman. That work does not require any level of sophistication on the instrument, other than to be able to read charts and do something with them. So I don't have the level of sophistication that many here clearly have, but I can play and do know my way around the fretboard, know basic diatonic theory, and can read as well as figure out stuff by ear off recordings.
I have read here that there is a new set of books becoming available that split up the original Goodrick books in a different manner. I am sure those will be great, but I do like the original books because I can just open one of them anywhere and just start playing until some musical idea occurs to me, and then I play around with that. The books are sort of like having the phone book for a very large city, opening it up, and randomly calling people just to chat. The original books are very uncomplicated, leaving you to figure out how you want to mine the material. I can't think of a better way to have presented this material.
My suggestion is very simple - don't forget to just play these things and LISTEN to how they sound and where they lead you musically. They are similar to somebody saying something that triggers a new thought in your head, sending you in a whole other direction conversationally.
Tony
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Tony, thanks so much for posting this. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
While there's a lot of thoughtful conversation here, I love this thread because it has, at its core, a community of guitarists who have decided to take their ears to a new place.
Too often guitarists have fallen into a compulsion for complexity, an obsession for innovation but with the thought of besting the status quo.
I love the things Mick shares through his publications because there's nothing forceful about his approach; nothing that even hints that this will make you a better player. It truly is an extension of one man's discovery of a larger potential of harmonic language, of sound that is virgin untapped and unrecognized in the traditions of improvised music.
You're right that sound is the heart of music. If there were a way to explore these sounds without the clatter and chatter, it'd be in the musical hang and playing among peers of the same sensibility. I have that luxury here in Boston. And to the rest of the world, maybe with use of YouTube and questions shared among and within this community of explorers, we can find the inspiration to take these books off the shelves and be the conduits for sounds that even Mick doesn't have in his philosophy.
Those who've found real application in this material have an uncannily similar story: Try out an idea. Play with it until it's in your fingers. Make it comfortable. Make it natural. Write your own little pieces for working on. Wait...
Some time in the future something appears in your playing that seems oddly familiar yet is different from anything you can remember playing. People comment "Where did THAT come from?" and then you recognize it as an obliquely poignant section of that piece you wrote. The sound is finally yours to speak with.
It really is in the ear. This place in the forum is a great safe haven in which we can all let advice, observation and wisdom percolate.
Thanks for your piece, Tony
David
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David:
Thanks for the response. This is a great thread, and i am certainly enjoying reading it. I really like what you said here:
Those who've found real application in this material have an uncannily similar story: Try out an idea. Play with it until it's in your fingers. Make it comfortable. Make it natural. Write your own little pieces for working on. Wait...
Some time in the future something appears in your playing that seems oddly familiar yet is different from anything you can remember playing. People comment "Where did THAT come from?" and then you recognize it as an obliquely poignant section of that piece you wrote. The sound is finally yours to speak with.
Thanks,
Tony
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Slightly off topic, so I'll apologize in advance.....
Does anyone else know this feeling, you're practicing, and you reach a place where you realize theres a specific recording that has all the answers you're looking for, so you put down the guitar and rush to the turntable, iPod or in this case, the YouTubes.....
There was a video of Mick with Dewey Redman, playing "Lonely Woman", that seems to have been removed from YouTube. If anyone knows where I could find the clip, or at least the audio, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
PK
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Well, some time ago I came up to this "Diatonic matrix", trying to get a global perspective on the cycle stuff... Originally Posted by bako
Easy to write, a bit harder to use, I think I already shared something similar (didn't check all the thread), but anyway...
no use if you don't internalize it, but nice handout for a quick check.
Decide how many "steps" you want make and see what is the cycle that fits...
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Hi, I've lurked in and read through this thread several times, really enjoy the discussion -- great to see it pick up again with lots of thoughtful posts about movement using the cycles. And cheers to David for continuing to make the remaining books available and providing (gentle) guidance here and there.
e_del, thanks for posting your matrix, the recent conversation in the thread reminded me of another matrix you posted sometime back up thread that I found useful to print out and stare at. The other one you shared had the added dimension of 'steps' or moves within each cycle to a target chord from a given starting chord. It was helpful for me to have these options iterated and laid out visually to help grasp even some of the possibilities. I like the almanacs for that reason as well. Originally Posted by e_del
Anyway I'm just dipping a toe in these waters, but really great work here everyone applying a whole additional layer of opportunities and subtlety to the Goodchord material.
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Some of these recordings came from European broadcasts. Maybe if some of the European members might have some advice on accessing German broadcasting sources, that might be a good place to look. Originally Posted by paulkogut
I have audios of performances done in Boston. Maybe I'll try to figure out a way to get them posted.
David
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new playlist: Goodchord CYCLE 2 MAJOR, close and open triads, all string sets...
It's a 12 video series, so I'll give you the YouTube playlist link, instead of cluttering the thread.
just an example:
enjoy, and if you spot any error, please write me a note...
If you will, like the Guitar Font facebook support page
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Fantastic! This will give people a real idea of how the material can get read, relate to the fingerboard and see the movement as the player does. Originally Posted by e_del
Who's going to perform these and post them on the thread so we can hear it and see it done?
And on these triads... the added bonus round, play them with one voice suspended, maybe as a 9th, then resolve it as a single note between chords. You won't believe how this can add tension and movement even more.
Thanks e_del!
David
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I really like it focuses on one string set. Just tried to go through it in 12 keys. Its pretty effective for that!
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I have a question for you "cyclists"
I'm trying to figure out how to play the TBN I & II, and the Spread Clusters on the guitar, but some weird fingerings appear, not all playable...
I know that the common suggestion is to get around by breaking the part on two players, or arpeggiating, etc...
But I wonder if can be appropriate to displace here and there some voices an octave up or down, through the progression.
This way some (not all) non-playable fingerings could become more friendly, but the voicing movement coherence on the string set gets broken...
Is it "legit" ?
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There's a reason there are no instructions in these books. There are also no rules saying how you use this material. Originally Posted by e_del
There's quite a bit here that's not playable all over the guitar. Some of it can only be played by some people with certain size hands on certain places of the guitar... some of it can be played by people who tune their guitars differently. Some is of the realm of piano players only.
What you do is take the voice leading and make it into music.
If it sounds good and it works, then the books have served you well.
If it inspires you to do something aside from the original design of the patterns, then it's not the patterns per se but it's music, The books have served you well.
If you can find 3 chords in the whole three volumes that sound great together, and they become something you build your sound on, then it has served you well.
It's just an organized system of pure permutations. It's a virgin box of voice led possibilities. It's one door out of the grab a chord world that most guitarists have come to believe is the universe. So if you open the door and you make your own map to somewhere that was not there by design, but you've made your own map and it's a beautiful place, it has served you well.
Put it on the shelf and obsess over what can't be done, ...way to many people in that club already.
David
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I've developed numerous strategies to address chord structures that I can't play simultaneously.
Dyad arpeggios are one such approach.
Attached is a TBN #1 example I threw together just now that integrates dyads of one skip.
It also hasn't been proofread, so if anyone finds an error, don't be shy or polite.
Last edited by bako; 05-22-2016 at 10:51 PM. Reason: chord symbol mistake corrected
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Question: Has anybody gotten to the point of applying these to actual tunes yet? I'd love to see/hear how you're doing it.
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Here in Boston, a few of Mick's students have been doing that very thing. Andrew Cheng is an experimental guitarist, composing and improvising with just that. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
In New York, Kenji Herbert is doing the same. Using largely triadic material superimposed over changes and within compositions. There's a guitarist who works out of Brooklyn, Ben Monder, who also uses this material within his own compositions and I've him set up an introduction to a piece beautifully with cycle material, I believe from volume 3.
It helps to work with others, if you have that luxury, as integration of sound and hearing other people work is really inspiring. Something happens when a small group of players really begins discovering new sounds; at some point, one person's individual sound gets integrated into things the others do.
We've been working with a few guitarists at the Westland Music space here in Boston. It's become a workshop of improvisational conversation. But most of the time we're too busy playing to be recording. Maybe one of these days...
David
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I'm aware, and I know I haven't been down there in a good while, but I didn't think you'd forget me THAT quickly. :P Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Actually I'm still trying to get the cycles under my fingers, and moreover I'm stepping back from tetrads to triads, because they are easier, and it's my intention to become fluent enough to start using them as chord extensions (or upper structures, if you will) while playing with other instruments... non need to hurt myself with tetrads at the moment
One thing I started to do is using the cycles to control the fretting hand position, so I can play chord progressions in one register without getting into other player's way, and have all the needed chords available anyway.
You can do by mixing some voicing from the cycles (going down the fretboard) with the "traditional" ones (going up the neck)
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here are the animations for the MAJOR SCALE TRIADS, cycle 3 and 4:
If you play them also backwards basically there are all the cycles for major scale triads:
Recap
Cycle 2 triads (played backwards: Cycle 7)
Cycle 3 triads (played backwards: Cycle 6)
Cycle 4 triads (played backwards: Cycle 5)
Now I'm trying to find an easy way to turn all these into melodic minor...
As usual, didn't check everything out, and if you see any error, please tell me...
enjoy
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Not sure how these are coded, but numerically, once the voice movement is established, and the notes of the scale are all inputted, changing the E to Eb will give you the melodic minor. It makes it easy to take the almanac chapter on harmonic minor, change the Eb to E and get all the harmonic majors too. Originally Posted by e_del
There's a whole new set of sounds right there.
Thanks for these animations. They can really show the big picture without even having a guitar in hand. It's going to help a lot of people break through to that first step.
David
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Yes, since everything is in word processor-styled documents, I'm trying to figure out some macro programming to make the "smartest" search/replace, with the least possible manual intervention... Originally Posted by TruthHertz
E to Eb gives melodic minor, then sub A with Ab and you have harmonic minor
A to Ab only gives harmonic major...
Enrico
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Hi - Does anyone here think about MSRP in the Goodchord books? Haven't seen mention of it here recently and it's quite a hard term to search for on a site filled with gear talk. Anyway, after living with volume I for a while and staring at the MSRP for some of the 7th chord cycles tonight, the DNA reference in the introduction sort of clicked-in and wow that's really cool. A little bit more of the iceberg under the surface revealed.
On a separate note, I never gave a thought to things like page color...but yeah I see that's alluded to in the introduction too. Mick's a painter, right? Curiouser and curiouser these books.
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When you get a cycle "off book" and really internalized, the canonic aspect of the MSRP becomes really natural and obvious. Each cycle has a different melody an you begin to notice some things, like chord movements that happen along triadic root movements have more repeated notes, ones that are diatonically related move differently... that kinds of stuff and I'm wondering what happens when there's enough familiarity that you can switch cycles within a line and change the melodic line. That's one of the ideas that lies beyond the format of the Almanacs themselves. Along with the creativity that comes when you take a toy out of the box and really play with it. Originally Posted by studiotan
Taken as ear training, the Almanacs can also train you to hear the movement within chords, inner voices as well as outer ones. How many guitarists choose chords for their root or melody note movement alone, and rely on one family of "grab" instead of being aware of internal voice movements? The cycles, MSRP and chord families are really good ear training aids for multi voice awareness-as you found out. Cool.
Yes the multicolour presentation helps you work with scale families so you can quickly access groups of cycles within their parent scales. Yes, Mick's a painter, and he draws and plays at a regular life drawing session in Boston. But that's another story.
David
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