The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    AbMa7#5 Fm7 | DbMa7#5 Bbm7 | Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 | C7 AbMa7 |

    F7 DbMa7 | FMa7#5 Dm7 Bma7#5 G#minma7 | E7 Cma7 | (Aminma7 F#m7b5) ||
    Trying to figure this out.

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min

    DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min

    Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt

    C7 AbMa7 --- ???

    F7 DbMa7 --- ???

    FMa7#5 Dm7 --- D mel min

    Bma7#5 G#minma7 --- G# mel min based on G7alt

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5)

    E7 Cma7 ---- ???

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5) --- A mel min

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, what is the genesis of the 7ths on the Ma7's
    Is it a V7 from the relative minor relationship?

    Ex. C7 Abma7
    relative minor of Ab is Fm and the V7 being C7

    The parallel mel min being Ab mel min doesn't include C7

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  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Trying to figure this out.

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min

    DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min

    Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt

    C7 AbMa7 --- ???

    F7 DbMa7 --- ???

    FMa7#5 Dm7 --- D mel min

    Bma7#5 G#minma7 --- G# mel min based on G7alt

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5)

    E7 Cma7 ---- ???

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5) --- A mel min

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, what is the genesis of the 7ths on the Ma7's
    Is it a V7 from the relative minor relationship?

    Ex. C7 Abma7
    relative minor of Ab is Fm and the V7 being C7

    The parallel mel min being Ab mel min doesn't include C7
    Ah, I'm sorry, my terminology wasn't clear. In each pair of chords (Except for ones that are originally dominant in ATTYA harmony) the second chord stays diatonic to the key center as you had in your initial presentation, but the first chord is altered to fit some melodic minor harmony - in this case either melodic minor (minmaj7,) lydian augmented (maj7#5,) or 'altered' scale.

    for the E7 to Cmaj7 stuff, I think of pulling the first chord from the lydian augmented pitch collection...so in ionian we get Em7 Cmaj7 for iii to I (Cycle 6,) in lydian augmented we get E7 Cmaj7#5 for III to I (still cycle 6.) Hope that makes sense. I like the sound.

    It's only the first of each pair that is borrowed from melodic minor harmony, except over the dominants where both chords in the pair are borrowed from melodic minor harmony.

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min back to Fm7 as diatonic vi chord. just a way of spicing up Fm harmony

    DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min to Bbm7 as diatonic ii chord. just a way of spicing up Bbm harmony

    Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt (yep)

    C7 AbMa7 --- Ab lydian augmented to Ab as diatonic I chord. I think of the C7 as just extensions on an Abmaj7#5. You could think of it as Abmaj9#5 (lydian augmented) to Abmaj7(lydian or ionian), tense to less tense.

    ...

    F7 DbMa7 --- same relationship as above

    ...
    E7 Cma7 ---- same relatinship as above

    ...
    Aminma7 F#m7b5 - this is staying consistent with the pairing idea, first chord of a pair is from some type of relevant melodic minor harmony, and the second chord is back to the diatonic (in this case C lydian) harmony. So we have Aminmaj7 from C lydian augmented - then F#m7b5 as you had it, in C lydian. It's coincidental in this case that F#m7b5 is within both C lydian and C lydian augmented. Theres a consistency in the pairing of E7 to Cmaj7, then Aminmaj7 to F#m7b5 - lydian augmented to lydian, lydian augmented to lydian.

    Hope that makes sense...I can see how "parallel melodic minor" was a little misleading.



    m7 harmony - spice it up via melodic minor (Fm7 = F melodic minor)

    maj7 harmony - spice it up via lydian augmented (Abma7 = Ab lydian augmented )

    dominant harmony - altered scale

    and for other tunes/harmony

    locrian - - -> locrian nat 2

    phrygian - - - > - phrygian natural 13/dorian b9

    dominant not functioning as V7 - - -> lydian dominant

  4. #128

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    Jake,

    Thanks, I would have seen it if I was looking at my original progression instead of AbMa7, but I didn't......

  5. #129

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    Cool, cool. I like that it's still cycle 6. Opens up interesting doors...keep cycles going but change things based on either the changing harmony in the tune, or a desire for a more colorful chord scale.

  6. #130

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    This stuff could be called "cycle superimposion"

  7. #131

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    Lunch sounds great! I've been trying to put a good hour a day towards the cycles...keeps me very busy with few moments to spare. Being aware of more of the potential results of my efforts is exciting, though I am big into pacing myself.

    my health has been a little better too so some playing would be nice as well...let's email

  8. #132

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    Each diatonic cycle will pass through every scale tone. I threw this together to better visualize the number of moves it takes to get from point A to point B. More a lab tool than for the bandstand and I suspect I will only occasionally glance at it but sometimes the act of writing something leads to new observations.
    Here's a copy if any one else cares to occasionally glance.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #133

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    What about three beats of cycle 2 to get to cycle 4? I have tried a few things and am not satisfied with the results.

    There Will Never Be Another Eulogy:

    Bbma7 - - |Eb7(lyd dom) - - |Ab7 (lyd dom)- - |G7 (altered)- - |C7 (lydian dom)

    First measure borrows from sixth mode of D harmonic major to get Bbma7#5#9 extensions:

    Dma7 Em7b5 F#m7 |Gm7b5 Am7b5 Bbminma7

    Cm7b5 Dm7b5 Ebminma7 | Fm7b5 Gm7b5 Abminmaj7

    Bbma7#5 C7 D7 | Em7b5

  10. #134

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    Thanks to David/TruthHertz for going the extra mile to make me aware of Norm Zocher's materials on symmetrical scales that do not repeat at the octave.

    I've been having a lot of fun the past few days with this one:

    minor third, major third, major third, repeat. Really just root position minor triads ascending in major sevenths - C Eb G, B D F#, Bb Db F, etc. There's a lot I could say about it but I'll spare you guys the term paper.

    two triad cycles voice led in the below video, both over a bass pedal:

    (chord/note names are given in concert pitch but the guitar is tuned down two whole steps)

    1. G#m B+ D# then repeated a half step below (Gm Bb+ D etc) all over an E pedal...this is from the above scale...I stop at an arbitrary point that sounded good to me.

    2. Same scale but with a half step added below each tone...meaning the chords are approached from a half step below: G#m A#+ B+ D D# F#m then repeated a half step below (Gm A+ Bb+ C# D Fm etc). All over a G# pedal. Like in Mick's Cycle 2, the voice leading goes down. I like the sound, it's pretty wild but the pattern gives it consistency while the vertical consequence of the pattern sounds, well, how it sounds. Again I stop the cycle at arbitrary points then improvise resolutions.



    The concept of these symmetrical patterns that don't repeat at the octave is really mind blowing and eye opening. It truly does get you out of a tonal/modal perspective, or at least doesn't keep you in one for very long!

    It seems like there are so many places one could go with this stuff...if anybody wants to help me not reinvent the wheel, that's always appreciated...
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 02-25-2013 at 04:15 PM. Reason: mistake in chord progression

  11. #135

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    To Jake Acci or Truth Hertz,

    Would you mind elaborating on the symmetric scales that dont repeat at the octave. I seem to recalll Holdsworth mentioning something about this in interviews. Something about scales taking 2 or 3 octaves to complete etc
    Thx
    cheers
    Last edited by Jazzism; 03-14-2013 at 10:30 PM.

  12. #136

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    Sure and glad to have some discussion of them.

    There's a lot to say

    a major scale is constructed of whole steps and half steps - W W H W W W H and then we are at an octave

    a pentatonic is whole steps and minor thirds - W W m3 W m3 W

    These are patterns of intervals that repeat at the octave.

    You could have any pattern that doesn't repeat at the octave and call it a scale and wind up with some interesting things, for example:

    W W W H

    It will take 12 cycles to come back to the beginning. A bit of it: C D E F#, G A B C#, D E F# G#, etc. It doesn't repeat at the octave, it repeats at the fifth, so it has to go through 12 cycles (the circle of fifths) before it's back to the original.

    The 'scale' I based my demo on is:

    m3 M3 M3

    C Eb G, B D F#, Bb Db F, etc. it repeats at the major seventh, so it takes 12 cycles before it's back to the original.

    I worked with the same scale but with extra passing tones:

    W H m3 H m3

    C D Eb F# G A#, B C# D F F# A

    Here's another sequence:

    M3 H W H

    that repeats at the m6 and takes three cycles to start over:

    C E F G Ab C Db Eb E G# A B

    You can use these sequences to make extended lines, voice led cycles like I did, permutate them for fast patterned 16th note runs that get you out of a conventional chord scale or group of extensions...

    Does that make sense?

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Sure and glad to have some discussion of them.

    There's a lot to say
    ...
    ...
    ...
    Does that make sense?
    Although it's logical, until now I never realized that (almost) all the scales we're dealing with rely on the octave as main interval! Within an octave we can use all kind of rules to subdivide it, but anytime the result is a repeatable block...

    This new perspective opens (to me) a complete new playing field... amazing.
    At first sight it seems a new harmonic system with more-than-seven-notes scale, based on intervallic patterns, and consequently a similar number of derived scales, modes, etc...

    And reasoning bacward, I could now see our "usual" harmonic system as a subset of this prinicple, based only on the interval of a second, wether major or minor... right?

    Wow, this is one of those "a-ha!" moments for me

  14. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Here's another sequence:

    M3 H W H

    that repeats at the m6 and takes three cycles to start over:

    C E F G Ab C Db Eb E G# A B
    With octave reduction and rearranged, I see:

    C Db Eb E F G Ab A B

    In Messiaen's terminology, the generating sequence is HWH, which is "mode 3."

    Your approach to getting there is cool, as it gives a pathway to exploring the sound of the mode.

    I really geeked out on the Messiaen modes for a while, filling books with the sounds embedded. Nelson Veras helped me understand how to get some traction with the sounds and one of the keys to that was finding melodic patterns that repeat, like your M3 H W H sequence.

    Bryan

  15. #139

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    Joseph Schillinger is a name to keep in mind. He searched for mathematical logic in visual arts as well as music. Some of his stuff translated to people like Coltrane through theorists like Roland Wiggins when they were both in Philly.
    In short, with the Schillinger system, you can make a scale with as few as 3 notes. The scale has a tonic and notes that make up the scale. Now if the scale has a construction where it doesn't end on the octave, but rather another note where it begins again but with the new tonic on a different note, it WILL take more than one iteration before it returns to the octave tonic.
    How does one use this knowledge? Well the "tradition" looks at the diatonic scales as the structures around which we play, so given a place to improvise, you're "inside" but in more expansive modern vocabularies, the spaces of improvisation can involve different sounds, or logic patterns that eventually converge with or create a point in a composition. Symmetrical scales are one way you can easily develop fluency in a different tonic arrangement, and play it as an alternative to an "inside" approach.
    The end result can be a beautifully fluid flow of sound that you wind up saying "What WAS that?" and then it's gone.
    You must be really fluent to pass this off though, because rhythmic consistency is a dead giveaway to lack of proficiency and in that situation it just sounds wrong.
    But once you begin getting these sounds in your head, small scales of less than an octave, it opens up really amazing cycles that once they complete, take you on a journey you can't think up without knowing them.
    Until recently, these techniques have been the realm of piano players, composers and horn players. Guitarists worship a different aesthetic.

    There are many ways of using any material, it's the responsibility of the artist to figure out a way to touch the listener. This material by it self can be meaningless streams of notes, or they can make you and your listeners look at sound and music in an entirely different way. It's a greater responsibility to work with new material because a lot of this is NOT immediately musical, you've got to figure out how to make it music. That's the criticism from a lot of people that want to feel, don't know how to recognize the thought process that the performer finds so exciting.
    I guess the learning curve on this stuff is a bit longer due to the fact that for each person at this point that wants to use it, it's truly your own wilderness, and anything you do, hasn't been done before. Kind of exciting, eh?
    David
    Last edited by TH; 03-25-2013 at 04:38 AM.

  16. #140

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    Thanks, David -- I always enjoy your stories (which means you can mark me down for a copy of your book when its finished!).

    Speaking of Mick ... did anything ever come of his "Falling Grace Variations" book that he told us about??

    Ciao,
    Marc

  17. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy

    Speaking of Mick ... did anything ever come of his "Falling Grace Variations" book that he told us about??

    Ciao,
    Marc
    It's almost ready to go to Berklee Press. Soon.
    David

  18. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    It's almost ready to go to Berklee Press. Soon.
    David
    Excellent! Thanks.

    M

  19. #143

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    Excuse me if this has already been posted.

    What is the almanac?

    thanks

  20. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh
    Excuse me if this has already been posted.

    What is the almanac?

    thanks
    "Mr. Goodchord's Almanac of Voice Leading" by Mick Goodrick. It's an out-of-print exhaustive list of how to voice lead various chord voicings through various root cycles. Pretty much described in depth in the first page of this topic thread.

  21. #145

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    Thanks

  22. #146

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    I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through.

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldrun77
    I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through.
    The almanac is actually the extended version of one of the chapters in Advancing. I'm jealous of you for having gotten through The Advancing Guitarist, it's been years and I'm still making my way around it.
    They're both works that try to paint a picture of the big picture. I don't think Mick ever intended anyone to actually get through the almanacs. Last weekend I was talking with a really remarkable guitarist, former student who's played with Mick, who's been working with the Almanac a lot. For him, it's not about making progress from one page to the next; it's not a linear book. For him, it's about being held accountable to a very controlled system, and through work in that way, acquiring an awareness of every note and its contribution to a harmonic progression. If you learn to use this material, he noted, you come to sense the movement of every voice. The benefits can be quite quick, and they will show up in the tools of improvisation and spontaneous composition, but I don't think it's a work to be gotten through.
    Neither is the Advancing Guitarist, for that matter. Maybe that's the beauty of the Goodrick books, they are constant companions for adventurous explorers.
    David

  24. #148

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    I don't know how many times I went to the Goodrick site when he had the books for sale but I was too cheap.

    Also when I googled for info on the book (probably well before this forum existed) all the reviews said not to bother with the book(s).
    I do have the advancing guitarist and the creative chordal harmony book so I will have to make do with those books plus the info on this forum and in this thread.

  25. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL
    Also when I googled for info on the book (probably well before this forum existed) all the reviews said not to bother with the book(s).
    .
    It is not a book most people would find useful, I will be the first to acknowledge. I have read statements on this forum that voice leading is not possible on a guitar given the limitations of the instrument. The prevailing mindset regarding what the guitar can and cannot do is based on traditions that have largely defined jazz guitar for better for for worse.

    For me, it's like a reference manual on alternative medicine. It's the musical equivalent of a digital rendering of body meridians, but if you study a different medicine... It realizes a vision one man had of a different way of treating the spectrum of harmonic and melodic interaction. It's not the way it's been done in the past. A person can now go and figure out these things on their own. The word is out. It is not a necessary part of being a "guitar player" but in the hands of an "Advancing guitarist", it saves the time one would have to spend to write it yourself. In the hands of a sonic explorer, the money is soon forgotten and the possibilities presented can give you new insight every day for the rest of your life.
    I agree, that most people should not bother. There's enough to worry about just learning about phrasing.
    For people actually working on it though, I'm really interested in sharing ideas here. We are breaking new ground and it's really helpful to be getting feedback.

    That may be helpful. Perhaps our pooled resources can also come up with the means by which this material can be shared within this group. Anybody have digital discs of the Almanac?
    David

  26. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    It is not a book most people would find useful, I will be the first to acknowledge. I have read statements on this forum that voice leading is not possible on a guitar given the limitations of the instrument. The prevailing mindset regarding what the guitar can and cannot do is based on traditions that have largely defined jazz guitar for better for for worse.

    For me, it's like a reference manual on alternative medicine. It's the musical equivalent of a digital rendering of body meridians, but if you study a different medicine... It realizes a vision one man had of a different way of treating the spectrum of harmonic and melodic interaction. It's not the way it's been done in the past. A person can now go and figure out these things on their own. The word is out. It is not a necessary part of being a "guitar player" but in the hands of an "Advancing guitarist", it saves the time one would have to spend to write it yourself. In the hands of a sonic explorer, the money is soon forgotten and the possibilities presented can give you new insight every day for the rest of your life.
    I agree, that most people should not bother. There's enough to worry about just learning about phrasing.
    For people actually working on it though, I'm really interested in sharing ideas here. We are breaking new ground and it's really helpful to be getting feedback.

    That may be helpful. Perhaps our pooled resources can also come up with the means by which this material can be shared within this group. Anybody have digital discs of the Almanac?
    David
    David, how do you think Mick (and others involved in the making of the almanacs) would feel about a digital version of the book being shared? I'd imagine they would be opposed to it, but since it's out of print I don't know how that changes things, and I figured you could get it from the horse's mouth. I have vol 1 and 2 (loaners) and a good enough quality scanner where I could scan the book pretty painlessly. Obviously I won't do this without permission...but the publishing company is defunct.