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I don't feel I have an in depth enough understanding of impressionist harmony to comment on how any of this relates. I don't honestly think I have a strong enough grounding in that music to understand on a concrete level how those composers relate to the harmony of Bill Evans say, but that would be something I'd love to dig into one day when I have a bit more time.
But what I would say is that it seems Debussy had a massive grounding in this type of 18th century figured bass stuff from the Paris Conservatoire (as noted in Gjerdingen's new book) - as for that matter did many of the greats of US music (including some jazzers) via Nadia Boulanger.
I would also say that practice of moving an structure through a fixed harmonic or melodic minor scale seems like a very specifically jazz way to look at harmony. It's obviously useful to us to have a cycle that goes through melodic minor or whatever because we have all sorts of ways to apply that to different chords. The chord scale thing seems a very jazz concept for example... it seems obvious why; CST suits the needs of jazz musicians who might want to play interesting colours on individual pre agreed basic chords; but that's not the process historically that classical composers and improvisers would have used (probably more so today.)
Anyway, that's all a MAHOOOSIVE side bar, and sorry for the derail...
The only relevant point I was trying to make is that it might be easier in some ways to view things like the Almanac cycles as intervallic combinations on bass rather than inverted chords. The question I'm starting to ask is; is it necessary to know what chords are in terms of theoretical root, or are we more interested in intervals moving through a given scale or tonality? I think the latter seems the important thing to me. I'm not sure naming this or that triad or seventh chord has a function beyond being able to realise chord charts at the basic level.
So, you can take any given Almanac cycle and write it as intervals on a bass, figured bass style. The notes you could end up playing would be unchanged, but the conceptualisation would be different. And yes some of the patterns would show up in classical pieces and these old harmony treatises...
There's also the and separate issue of aesthetics; and the obvious point that it's not parallel evolution, but rather, well, direct evolution as many jazz musicians are at least familiar with Bach, and many with other classical composers too. In any case, I would expect the majority of jazz musicians to be familiar with how that music sounds, and often be pretty intimately familiar with at least few pieces. This is not a new thing of course; we can trace it back to the riverboats...
Even in quite a dry book like the Almanac which aims to be systematic, it's quite clear there's an aesthetic element and at least some of what we think of as beautiful harmony comes from that world; one makes those associations.Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 08:46 PM.
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12-19-2020 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Or all the the things that evolved into the body plan of crabs that aren't actually crabs.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
David
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Yeah I feel I honestly lack knowledge of that music in a nuts and bolts way to have a (relatively) informed take on it with respect to jazz. I understand it from a music history 101 point of view.
I’m also interested in composers like Faure and Saint-Saens who represent a transition to my ears. And for that matter there’s Wagner of course.
Debussy has been influential on jazz since the early days though. And a two way relationship with his successors and younger contemporaries Ravel, Milhaud, Poulenc etc.Last edited by christianm77; 12-20-2020 at 08:09 AM.
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Excellent job - looks very polished with clear interface and easy to use!
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Hey everybody,
I started with the triads three day´s ago. At first I thought I need help to find ways to work with them. But like a magic trick the way of building the triads makes more sense then any voiceing or chordype I ever learned. Since yesterday I´m working on some standards and it´s not allways easy in time, but it works pretty well.
Since I just have a copy of the first book, I´m interested to get the others. Also other books of Mr Goodrick, since his stuff is really amazing. Have the books been republished in anyway?
That´s how I got here. But you guys have much discusion going on. Really interesting stuff, but much to read...I´m happy to read, learn and maybe share my thoughts.
Jonas
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I bought “The Advancing Guitarist” when it came out and worked on its concepts over the years, especially playing up and down the neck on one or two strings. It’s the kind of book that appeals to me, more concepts than content.
Though I knew about the Mr. Goodchord books, they went out print before I got my hands on one.
Oddly, the person who introduced Volume 1 to me - primarily as a compositional resource - was pianist Russ Ferrante. I worked through some of the first triad sequences and ended up writing a couple of pieces based on the voice leading.
I could also see how the books could be a resource for a different approach to comping than playing and connecting “grips”. More independent voices rather than vertical blocks of harmony.
I think because Mick is a guitarist we think the Mr. Goodchord books are “guitar books” but I think they are more encyclopedias of general voice leading concepts that could be applied to composition and arranging, along with chordal and improvisational applications on the guitar.
You can get some interesting single lines going if you break each “chord” into arpeggios and connect the sequences by the moving voice(s).
It’s a rich resource, but not a progressive method.Last edited by BickertRules; 01-15-2021 at 12:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jonas S.
I (we) welcome your fresh perspective and new ideas. I always like the "new discoverers" because everyone has such a different take on just what these mean, and what they can do, it's the newbies who often have revelations I'd never even thought of.
Triads are a great way to go. Y'know guitarists in general so often neglect the potential of spread triads. There is so often a profoundly rich colouration that comes from introducing a 4th voice into a spread triad that changes the entire character of a chord, but in the flow of the cyclic voice leading maintains the integrity of the line(s).
Another thing I am loving with the work I've been doing (mostly chord melody) is the way the ascending seconds actually go DOWN, and descending stepwise root motion goes UP. A great way to really keep the sounds fresh in comparison to the way most people treat those chords.
Also in static or chords where the harmonic convergence of the turnaround in a tonal area is a few bars away, cycle 6 and cycle 3 are really cool depending on whether you want to travel up or down the neck. When it's time to "rejoin" the written piece, a turnaround or 7th chord is always in the neighborhood, so to speak. The interim travel is really interesting and ads texture and an element of the unexpected to any chord solo.
I hope you continue to find the cycles engaging. I really jumped into them again at the start of the pandemic. And almost weekly, I'm having breakthroughs in my ear, fingering facility and chordal soloing facility.
I tell Mick what I'm working on and he always responds by nodding and saying "If you want try this..." and my mind is blown. What he does bears little outward resemblance to any pages I'm working on but he assures me that it's somewhere in the forest if I stay long enough to map my way through to it.
David
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Hey BickertRules,
I have the advancing guitarist and worked with it for a while. But never fully dived into it. Had a couple of ohter issues the last years, so I mainly practiced for gigs and stuff.
In my opinion the most important things about Micks stuff as a guitarist is that it´s opening my mind. And that´s allways my goal...
Of course you can learn from the books in many ways (Especially from his sence of humor.). Voiceleading is crucial in improvisation, composition, arranging....
For me it doesn´t have to be a progressive method. It´s about how much ideas I get just from playing one cycle a couple of times.
Jonas
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Hey Jimme Blue Note,
thanks for the welcome!
I really like two or threenote voiceings and have been working with them for years. I love this open sound. So the tirads are a real good start for me. But of course I will go on to the 7th.
When I´m working in this way it doesen´t feels like "just" chords because I think of every movement. It´s like playing three unitars.
At the second day of practiceing I played some cycles and took day´s of wine and roses to work with. At first in a very slow tempo to get everything right. After that I put the speed up and just played with the idea of the voice movements and some amazing stuff was hapening. Ok, not everything... But some really nice voiceings just showed up by integrating tension and let the cycles melt together with things I already know. I like to work intuitive and the apporach in the books works really well this way.
It´s nice that you´re working with Mick. I wolud like to have a lesson or more with him. But I don´t think that I get to the states in the near future.
Jonas
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Hi,
I listened to this interview with Ben Monder last night where he spoke about practicing Goodrick's cycles. I thought it was interesting to hear that it seems to be a large part of his practice and also that he focuses on the three-part cycles.
I have been doing the same since Jimmy Blue Note said in a post that is what he had been doing and really listening carefully to the lines changing. I can feel a difference in my ears since a few months ago, but still need more work!
Richard
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What are some of the advantages of focusing on the triad cycles as opposed to the 4 part cycles?
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Originally Posted by JohnoL
When I immersed myself in these cycles during the pandemic, I was returning to the books and in between, I had worked a lot with triads over bass notes, and non functional harmony. I was in a space where triads gave me more freedom to create an extremely articulate palette of textures with the addition of another note. So I chose to study the triads.
I found them to be:
Really essential aural identity. The triadic chord tones gave me a clear and always identifiable outline of what and where each note was and what the chord was collectively. The clarity of the triad really proved to be helpful in the ear-training aspect of cycle studies because it defined each voice separately (as opposed to seeing/hearing a chord as a single "grab" as there is such a preponderance of in the guitar world), and this movement is easier for me to hear in triads. For me, the conversation of 1 3 and 5 was more intimate and less ambiguous given the space they had to occupy.
Clarity of voice movement. For me the essence of being able to navigate and voice lead on the fly, in real time improvisation, involves a knowledge of what voice leads to the next root and in which direction that root comes from. Working with the triad form, and knowing that, say, the 5th of the present chord will be my "window" to the root of the succeeding chord was much easier for me to see in triad form. I feel a lot more sure footed working with 7ths now having gotten that revelation in triads.
Using passing tones between chords. There's more space between chord voices with triads so working with passing notes, both diatonic and chromatic, allowed me to create notes, dissonances and counter movement between the chords presented in the almanacs. This "customization" turns out to be some pretty hip movement that changes the way the cycle sounds. Triads give me a lot to work with here because their simpler identity contrasts with chromatic line and passing notes. It's easier to develop a feeling of "between the chords" tones when the target is a triad. At least for me.
Chromatic tones below triads. We have 12 notes that are available beneath each triad. 9 if we don't want doubling. These notes profoundly change the way a triad is perceived. By experimenting with one's choices, you can essentially move "blocks" of texture by introducing a bass note to any triad. That means that during the cycles of triads, you can also change the perception of consonance and dissonance at will by using a bass note (rather than a predetermined 7th).
Bass lines and pedal tones. Movement of the triads through a cycle can also be contrasted by a bass player running a more conventionally placed bass line beneath. This can have the feeling of very complex upper tensions being played on conventional harmonic bass notes. You can learn to play a separate bass line beneath a cycle segment and it creates an even more elusive "What IS that chord?!!" effect.
Visualization. Seeing the movement, knowing the placement of chord fingerings on the fingerboard was easier for me, especially when crossing string sets, with triads. It was an easier "mapping" of the territory. I was more easily able to focus on coordinating my hands visually on the string and fret landscape.
Arpeggiation. Creating lines based on triad cycles was easier for me because I could see the 7th as a plastic area to be treated melodically and something that could be altered on the way to the next chord tone. This gave me more harmonic and rhythmic freedom.
Now all these things are just MY take on triads through working with them. I've got a lot of work to do and very likely the way I see them will change over time. That's why it's really good to have different people give their own stories from where they are on this trip.
Don't take my response any more seriously than the evolutionary opinions and observations of an explorer.
David
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Now all these things are just MY take on triads through working with them. I've got a lot of work to do and very likely the way I see them will change over time. That's why it's really good to have different people give their own stories from where they are on this trip.
Don't take my response any more seriously than the evolutionary opinions and observations of an explorer.
David
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Originally Posted by JohnoL
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Chromatic tones below triads. We have 12 notes that are available beneath each triad. 9 if we don't want doubling. These notes profoundly change the way a triad is perceived. By experimenting with one's choices, you can essentially move "blocks" of texture by introducing a bass note to any triad. That means that during the cycles of triads, you can also change the perception of consonance and dissonance at will by using a bass note (rather than a predetermined 7th).
Bass lines and pedal tones. Movement of the triads through a cycle can also be contrasted by a bass player running a more conventionally placed bass line beneath. This can have the feeling of very complex upper tensions being played on conventional harmonic bass notes. You can learn to play a separate bass line beneath a cycle segment and it creates an even more elusive "What IS that chord?!!" effect.
How would you compare these concepts with the TBN1 and TBN2 voicings?
Since with the TBN's more often than not the "bass" note is not on the bottom and the general sound hits me differently than what you're describing.
I have not been able to reconcile these concepts and in a more simplified way slash chords with the TBN's.
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Originally Posted by JohnoL
Taken as a whole, and entirety, the three volumes of the Almanacs are a fleshing out of all three and four note permutations of non repeating intervallic harmony, voice led.
The most obvious ones, the ones we're most familiar with through western harmony are the triads and 7th chords built on thirds. These are the most traditional and for many people the most "usable" applications that comprise volume 1.
But Mick always saw "chords" in a broader term, one that included permutations that were not built on thirds. The most obvious alternatives are chords built on fourths, but they also include sequential notes (clusters), two sequential-space-two sequential...you get the idea. Each one of these chords has its own sounds, textures, rules of voice leading and sonic identity. Much of the time, if we do come across these, they aren't codified or they're just treated as passing chords or segments, not chords to be explored as compositional/improvisational potential.
So Mick made an exhaustive list of the intervallic chord possibilities and he gave them descriptive names because they defied conventional functional descriptors. These "entities" could then be voice led and made into melodic lines via the MSRP and canonic cycles.
As to how they are used functionally, that's a huge part of the individual's application. They have chordal identity that can weave in and out of conventional song form or they can be used as the basis of compositional material that can then, itself, be treated as an improvisational vehicle.
I will say that it requires good ear training to realize the potential of this material, but working with cycles built upon "nameless harmony" is a re-calibrating of hearing.
The treatment of triads over chromatic bass notes is not based on the disassembly of the unit structure as Mick does, but rather the more conventional voice leading triads over a superimposed bass note. The triad upper structure is an intact voice led cycle, the bass note defines the density and consonance/dissonance of the resultant unit.
I once began a thread about this non functional triads over bass notes on this forum. That was when I was using the identity TruthHertz. That informs one use of the triad cycles.
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I once began a thread about this non functional triads over bass notes on this forum. That was when I was using the identity TruthHertz. That informs one use of the triad cycles.
Is this the thread?
New constructs in modern harmony and form
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Originally Posted by JohnoL
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Hi everybody,
does someone begin to study the book number 3?
because i can hardly understand the part called STUFF TO DO WITH 3-PART CHORDS(WITH PASSING TONE AND MELODIC EMBELLISHMENT)...
i would like to know if there's someone who could help me out!!!!
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Originally Posted by Fra88
These may seem like unrelated or broad and general questions but they speak very specifically about how anyone might answer them. The Almanacs, and particularly the 3rd volume has many many uses implied in this material. It'd be really helpful to know a little about where you are as a player before going in depth about how to use the cycles.
Have you played with the cycles without embellishments? What do you think of them? Which one appeals to you, maybe that'd be a good place to start.
I've found that the benefits to me are not in playing these cycles literally, but the ear/finger/harmonic/guitar neck visualization that this immersion has forced me to confront and how it's freed me to create remarkably melodic lines in 4 voices. For me, it was essential to see the movement in essential unembellished forms first.
You need to understand too, that by the 3rd volume, he's working with triad and 4 part forms that are NOT based on stacked thirds. There's a universe of sonic possibilities in these "unconventional" intervallic groupings and they're going to open up a whole lot of possibilities if you can hear them against and with traditional harmony (if that's your thing) but embellishments, passing tones, and melodic lines are the BRIDGE between the unusually beautiful intervals explored through the cycles, and being able to "flesh out" that "bone structure" into usable lines...even before we're talking in real time.
But let's start by finding out about where you're coming from and take it from there.
This will be very interesting and fun!
David
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Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Originally Posted by Fra88
Close voiced, or an arrangement of the notes in the most compact way so there are no octave shifts, with passing tones. That's particulary appropriate in instances that use things like close clusters. Once they begin to voice lead, the intervals between note voices opens up and that's where you can have dramatic spaces between individual notes in adjacent chords. Passing notes create a scalular or melodic bridge between voice leaps. This idea can also be applied to the cycles in volume 1 and 2 too, and in that context, it starts to sound like Bach with suspensions.
Make sense?
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Hi Fra88
Good question - it looks like you're on Almanac 3 p. 14? It's a great section to work from. I've made a quick sketch of a few bars, attached. I emphasise that this is only my own reading of this chart - there will be many, many routes through these sequences since there are no time signature(s) or register(s) - and also because the notes don't need be of equal lengths. Occasionally you might have to 'sketch' or arpeggiate a particularly tricky close-voiced chord or two. My notes & tab below (using the first line from '9th to 3rd close-voiced with passing tones') is only a quick 'first thought' reply but maybe it'll get you started, for now?
I'll attempt a more detailed reply (and fix any typos) at the weekend.
All the best
MickWLast edited by Mick Wright; 02-22-2021 at 10:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mick Wright
Shipping Catastrophe
Today, 07:27 AM in Everything Else