Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

[JakeAcci]

Here's a useful chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...qSHZRNmc#gid=0

And not-useful explorations:

Consider the above for non-diatonic cycles...example, what if cycle 5 always moves in perfect fifths rather than diatonic fifths, and the chord type is always maj7#5? Or alternate between maj7#5 and....

I've found patterns within the cycles, you can make alterations and get some wild stuff.

For example, triads in cycle 6, you only change one note at a time, right? If you start in root position the pattern of which note gets moved is top, middle, bottom. the top voice goes up a scale tone, then the middle voice, then the bottom voice. Example diatonic cycle 6 in C major:

C E G

C E A

C F A

D F A

What about taking the same idea but instead of the tones moving up to the next note in a scale, they move up in this pattern: whole step, half step, half step? Gets pretty wild pretty fast:

C E G

C E A

C F A

C# F A

C# F B

C# F# B

D F# B

D F# C#

D G C#

D# G C#

D# G D#

D# G# D#

E G# D#

E G# F

E A F

F A F

F A G

F A# G

F# A# G

F# A# A

F# B A

G B A

G B B

And on and on...fun to look for changes you can make to each cycle to get some unfamiliar sounds. The tonality established is almost random, but the voice leading is patterned, giving it consistency. Consistent voice leading, almost 'atonal' or 'random' harmony. If you're into that sort of thing....

[TH]

I'm about to put some last stretch touches on a pretty big project involving the Almanacs and their use. I'll use stuff from this thread and also incorporate approaches people (and you guys) have come across.
The workbook, as I'm thinking of it, will have a considerable amount of material from the original books so those of you that don't have them will find more than enough material to work with, but more importantly, it will be an open discussion about using material like this.

So yes, everyone, chime in and I'll let you know how we might circulate this material.
Here's an observation and conversation question to all of you, could we perhaps begin a discussion?:

First of all, Mick left almost no instruction about what to actually do with this material.
It seems to me that there's a great divide in improvisational thinking, here on this group and in the professional and academic spheres. There are those that see an almost sacred mission to respect the changes. I think of this as inside playing. Song form and standards are the structural frames for this approach (in general) and often the phrasing is eighth note based. I also think of this as bebop lineage.
And there are compositional approaches, where a solo space becomes a more interpretive canvas for structures maybe suggested by but not strictly governed by the changes. This is Miles with the second quintet all the way up to pieces with more open ended vamp forms. There is often 16th note phrasing and the use of smaller "micro structures" that work to create the architecture of a solo.
Yeah this is really generalizing, but it has a lot to do with how tools like the voice led cycles are utilized. How do any of you use these sounds playing inside a standard, or a more expansive use? In other words, how do you see the solo space and how does the voice leading material add a working tool to that solo construction?

Does this material change the way you solo, or the way you lay out materials? I know for me it's a great sound that is easily identifiable yet there are so many choices of what and how to use it that it's always fresh. For me, the hardest part is really internalizing the sounds created so I can even begin to assign it to a meaningful solo; but when it's there, and it works, it's really beautiful and it creates useful compositional material that, as complex as it is, is simple to employ once it's practiced and internalized.
How about it, any thoughts or comments on what you have, have not been able to do? Hope to do? Have found useful?

Thanks, and it'd be great to get your feedback on the workbook. I'd want to distribute it at pretty much the cost of running a copy at Staples, and putting it in file form is good too. Any thoughts on hard copy vs digital? I've always liked the feel of pages and space to put notes and post it commentary, but that's my self.

David

[Toddep]

Oh it's so alive! I'm about to put some last stretch touches on a pretty big project involving the Almanacs and their use. I'll use stuff from this thread and also incorporate approaches people (and you guys) have come across.
The workbook, as I'm thinking of it, will have a considerable amount of material from the original books so those of you that don't have them will find more than enough material to work with, but more importantly, it will be an open discussion about using material like this.

So yes, everyone, chime in and I'll let you know how we might circulate this material.
Here's an observation and conversation question to all of you, could we perhaps begin a discussion?:

First of all, Mick left almost no instruction about what to actually do with this material.
It seems to me that there's a great divide in improvisational thinking, here on this group and in the professional and academic spheres. There are those that see an almost sacred mission to respect the changes. I think of this as inside playing. Song form and standards are the structural frames for this approach (in general) and often the phrasing is eighth note based. I also think of this as bebop lineage.
And there are compositional approaches, where a solo space becomes a more interpretive canvas for structures maybe suggested by but not strictly governed by the changes. This is Miles with the second quintet all the way up to pieces with more open ended vamp forms. There is often 16th note phrasing and the use of smaller "micro structures" that work to create the architecture of a solo.
Yeah this is really generalizing, but it has a lot to do with how tools like the voice led cycles are utilized. How do any of you use these sounds playing inside a standard, or a more expansive use? In other words, how do you see the solo space and how does the voice leading material add a working tool to that solo construction?

Does this material change the way you solo, or the way you lay out materials? I know for me it's a great sound that is easily identifiable yet there are so many choices of what and how to use it that it's always fresh. For me, the hardest part is really internalizing the sounds created so I can even begin to assign it to a meaningful solo; but when it's there, and it works, it's really beautiful and it creates useful compositional material that, as complex as it is, is simple to employ once it's practiced and internalized.
How about it, any thoughts or comments on what you have, have not been able to do? Hope to do? Have found useful?

Thanks, and it'd be great to get your feedback on the workbook. I'd want to distribute it at pretty much the cost of running a copy at Staples, and putting it in file form is good too. Any thoughts on hard copy vs digital? I've always liked the feel of pages and space to put notes and post it commentary, but that's my self.

David

I would support both and analog and digital copies..

[jeromesteele]

This is great. This has already been a tremendous source of inspiration. I would be over the moon to get my hands on a physical copy of your explorations and applications of this material. This is very exciting.

[bako]

C E G------C E G

C E A-----C E A

C F A-----C F A

C# F A------D F A

C# F B-----D F B

C# F# B-----D G B

D F# B-----E G B

D F# C#-----E G C

D G C#------E A C

D# G C#------F A C

D# G D#-----F A D

D# G# D#-----F B D

E G# D#-----G B D

E G# F-----G B E

E A F-----G C E

F A F------A C E

F A G-----A C F

F A# G-----A D F

F# A# G------B D F

F# A# A-----B D G

F# B A------B E G

G B A------C E G

G B B-----C E A

Jake,

I wrote the diatonic version alongside to see if I could uncover the pattern, no luck so far.
Clues?

Thanks,
Bako

[marcwhy]

David, Put me down for an order!

Marc

[JakeAcci]

Jake,

I wrote the diatonic version alongside to see if I could uncover the pattern, no luck so far.
Clues?

Thanks,
Bako

Rats, I'm sorry Bako, I swear I didn't mean to be cryptic.

I wrote "What about taking the same idea but instead of the tones moving up to the next note in a scale, they move up in this pattern: whole step, half step, half step? Gets pretty wild pretty fast:"

It's a real simple pattern:

In this case we start with root position triad

then the highest voice moves up a whole step

then the middle voice moves up a half step

then the lowest voice moves up a half step

repeat:

then the highest voice moves up a whole step

then the middle voice moves up a half step

then the lowest voice moves up a half step

As you continue the highest voice gets farther away from the lower two voices and the harmony is different at each stage.

In this mode of thinking the only constant is an intervallic voice leading pattern, there is no scale, there is no cycle, there are no chords or chord progression except the starting point which happens to be a root position major triad but it could have just as easily been anything else.

Hope that clears it up. I've been having fun with the concept. Again, didn't mean to be cryptic or obtuse.

[TH]

Ah! DIYMSRP! Now I see it. Heeyyyy, now we're into inventing some far out stuff! You can make it really interesting by having each voice get "back into line" to avoid the stuck-across-the-boat-and-the-dock phenomenon. Gotta play around with this with spread voicings, and get them to resolve into a usable dominant chord at some point to make this really useful.
Fun stuff. Thanks Jake
David

[JakeAcci]

Hah, DIYMSRP, exactly! Harmonically, you can also allow the pattern to bring you somewhere and then "realize" the harmony of the moment...for example somewhere in there was F# A# A, kinda looks like an F#7#9...in the improviser's/composer's mind that could become a jumping-off point for a new modulation to something more concretely tonal.

[e_del]

Oh it's so alive! I'm about to put some last stretch touches on a pretty big project involving the Almanacs and their use. I'll use stuff from this thread and also incorporate approaches people (and you guys) have come across.
The workbook, as I'm thinking of it, will have a considerable amount of material from the original books so those of you that don't have them will find more than enough material to work with, but more importantly, it will be an open discussion about using material like this.

So yes, everyone, chime in and I'll let you know how we might circulate this material.

waiting for news too...
Paper is good for annotations, but PDF is easier to browse and search... why couldn't we have both?

[TH]

Oh yeah, I'll have both. I'm just wondering where everyone is in their preferences. So let's have a survey here if you can please, on the forum or private response.
How many of you actually have Volume 1,
how many need/want volume 1,
how many of you have volume 2,
need/want vol 2,
have vol 3 or
need/want vol 3.
How many would prefer working with paper,
how many would like a thumb drive, (if it gets pagey...)
Both?
If I send out stuff I'll do it at a cost that will cover Staples and the USPS. Sound good?
This information will be really useful as I'm putting the workbook together. So do let me know if you've wanted to work with this material but have never gotten your hands on it. We'll all work together to get some good discussions going on and I'll send out some materials.
I'm also getting some people that are willing to help collect recordings of the cycles, so we can browse them aurally. Anybody out there willing?
Note: For obvious copyright issues, there is no way I can actually distribute the books. But we can discuss their content and I will provide "parts" for us to create study groups.
Reach me privately for details please.
Thanks a lot
David

[marcwhy]

Thanks, David.

I have Vol 1, I would like Vol 3.

Paper and pdf are good.

Marc

[Jazzism]

Hi David,

Yesterday, i managed to get Vol 2 through my university's inter library loan service. strangely enough, not from the US but from Denmark. All the way from Denmark to Hong Kong. So yeah, still looking to source Vol 1 and 3.
The workbook is a fantastic idea, as i have kind of been working in the dark regarding how to apply this stuff.
I mean, playing standards is great and all and its a shared vocabulary, but it seems to give me a lot of enjoyment to just let go and not be concerned about functional harmony and just combine sounds that appeal to me. I guess the hassle will come later when i have to figure out how to solo over these structures or explain it to other sidemen?
Last week i was at a friends place who has a set of V drums and we experimented with doing something more harmonically interesting in the drum and bass genre, so i found a few voicings that i liked, ( i found some pages i had photo copied from someone years ago from Vol 1) some TBN's, drop 2 voicings etc,

Its interesting to imagine what you could do if, as you say David, you can start to internalize the cycles and use them more freely than just being able to play through them as an exercise.

BTW, Inspired thinking Jake. very cool idea
cheers

[e_del]

repeat:

then the highest voice moves up a whole step

then the middle voice moves up a half step

then the lowest voice moves up a half step

As you continue the highest voice gets farther away from the lower two voices and the harmony is different at each stage.

... hmm... to my ears it sounds like an arrangement "Pezanelli style" (hybrids: triad + bass... look at mike's masterclasses, very good stuff), but continuously changing the tension, and thus the "color" under the higher note that I interpret as the main melody...

but the effect is different if you use different inversions, as the "higher voice" that moves whole steps is different...
interesting... having time to dig it! :-) :-)

[driskel]

David,

I have been lurking here for some time, this my first post.

I have been searching for all three volumes for sometime now. To clarify, I am beginning my jazz journey, so my capabilities and understanding are light.

I am looking for all three volumes, and would prefer both paper as well thumb drive. In terms of costs that you mention, I think that is quite a generous offer.

Thank you.

Oh yeah, I'll have both. I'm just wondering where everyone is in their preferences. So let's have a survey here if you can please, on the forum or private response.
How many of you actually have Volume 1,
how many need/want volume 1,
how many of you have volume 2,
need/want vol 2,
have vol 3 or
need/want vol 3.
How many would prefer working with paper,
how many would like a thumb drive, (if it gets pagey...)
Both?
If I send out stuff I'll do it at a cost that will cover Staples and the USPS. Sound good?
This information will be really useful as I'm putting the workbook together. So do let me know if you've wanted to work with this material but have never gotten your hands on it. We'll all work together to get some good discussions going on and I'll send out some materials.
I'm also getting some people that are willing to help collect recordings of the cycles, so we can browse them aurally. Anybody out there willing?
Note: For obvious copyright issues, there is no way I can actually distribute the books. But we can discuss their content and I will provide "parts" for us to create study groups.
Reach me privately for details please.
Thanks a lot
David

[mikostep]

Hello David,

Thanks for thinking on us.
I would like all three volumes and both forms.
Thanks very much.

[TH]

David,

I have been lurking here for some time, this my first post.

I have been searching for all three volumes for sometime now. To clarify, I am beginning my jazz journey, so my capabilities and understanding are light.

I am looking for all three volumes, and would prefer both paper as well thumb drive. In terms of costs that you mention, I think that is quite a generous offer.

Thank you.

Hey driskel. Good for you, and I'd like to encourage and ask of some of our more seasoned members to please work with us here. As an early and beginning advancing guitarist, I think this is an AMAZING opportunity to embrace a very powerful tool in voice leading. I'll tell you right now that these books are deep, and they are an ocean that at least assumes you can swim.
I'm thrilled to see you wanting to use these because the VAST majority of guitarists lock themselves into the drop 2 trap from the start and so many find it impossibly intimidating to give that up.
Opinions from others? The theoretical world of the jazz guitarist vs other instruments?
And driskel, what is it you're looking for? Hoping to be able to do? You know these volumes are about as intelliglble as a Chinese telephone book for most people? What turned you on to this stuff?

I had a student who bought vol 1 thinking that this was finally a way to get around memorizing chord voicings in favour of a voice led approach where everything was written out. I don't know why he didn't work with the material long enough to scratch the surface but I think he wanted something that would make him understand harmony without him hitting a certain ear threshold.

I would love this forum to be a wide a spectrum for these books, everybody working together. Driskel, you may be the point man at the beginner's end. Tell me a little about what you know at this point. Let's get you up to speed.
I really want to see what can happen with a clear open mind.
David

[driskel]

Thanks David for the reply it is greatly appreciated. I will try to answer your questions below. If I did not provide the answers you were looking for or did not understand the question, please let me know and I will try to clarify.

Hey driskel. Good for you, and I'd like to encourage and ask of some of our more seasoned members to please work with us here. As an early and beginning advancing guitarist, I think this is an AMAZING opportunity to embrace a very powerful tool in voice leading. I'll tell you right now that these books are deep, and they are an ocean that at least assumes you can swim.
I'm thrilled to see you wanting to use these because the VAST majority of guitarists lock themselves into the drop 2 trap from the start and so many find it impossibly intimidating to give that up.
Opinions from others? The theoretical world of the jazz guitarist vs other instruments?
And driskel, what is it you're looking for? Hoping to be able to do? You know these volumes are about as intelliglble as a Chinese telephone book for most people? What turned you on to this stuff?

I understand that these are not technique books but small algorithms of voice leading concepts. I also understand that the material presented is a great challenge. What turned me on to this was hearing some examples from players plus the challenge that they present. I am looking forward to the intellectual challenge that this material presents.

As a player, I am looking for something new. I have been locked into pentatonic rock and roll playing. I have been looking for something else to keep me interested in the instrument and quite honestly my ears are hearing more complex harmony.

Some players that have knocked me out truly understand the instrument, Mick Goodrick and Ted Greene for example.

I had a student who bought vol 1 thinking that this was finally a way to get around memorizing chord voicings in favour of a voice led approach where everything was written out. I don't know why he didn't work with the material long enough to scratch the surface but I think he wanted something that would make him understand harmony without him hitting a certain ear threshold.

I would love this forum to be a wide a spectrum for these books, everybody working together. Driskel, you may be the point man at the beginner's end. Tell me a little about what you know at this point. Let's get you up to speed.
I really want to see what can happen with a clear open mind.
David

I have played rock and roll and for a long time, so I am not new to the instrument. Jazz I am new to as player. About 6 months ago, I decided to pretty much throw everything away and try to look at the instrument with fresh ears and eyes and approach it like I am starting from home base.

I have discovered for me that the driving force has been the intellectual challenge of learning and truly grasping the concept(s) before moving on. This new discovery pretty much keeps a guitar in my hand all the time when I am home. I have the desired again and that desire it to be a student of the guitar.

So my first steps have been as a new old guitar player:

1) Relearning reading music notation (Berkley Guitar Method)
2) Relearning the major scales
a) Harmonizing the major scales and learning the arpeggio shapes (M7, m7, 7, m7b5) in basically the CAGED positions.
3) Triad work
4) Chord construction.

Thanks,

Michael

[TH]

Goodchord for the beginner.
I think this is really exciting. The more I teach, the more I realize that 1) Jazz is a lot more complicated than most beginners comprehend. 2) there are inherent built in limitations to fretboard mastery that make the learning curve a little easier (grabs, for example, and harmony reduced to drop 2 voicings...) 3) there are things that pianists, composers and arrangers take for granted that are considered impossible for guitarists. 4) Guitarists arrive on the doorstep of jazz land and many are paralyzed by the task put before them.

So the idea of starting with a new landscape, this is really such a great thing.

The almanacs are written without notation. This is to avoid the shortcomings of the notational system in seeing relationships, but also so everybody can jump in with this material.
On the flip side, you must know the names of all the notes all over the fingerboard. This is not only helpful, but when you're trying to learn one thing (to see how voices move AND to hear it) you don't want to even be doubting where that Eb is.
Notation is a good, no a great skill to have but not overtly necessary in Almanac land.

It'd be really helpful if you knew the voicings of drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 + 4 in all inversions, on all string sets because the groupings do follow chord families and if you have some muscle memory in your hands, it will go much faster.
The voice leading takes you through cycles, so know enough about harmony to know the chord qualities of the diatonic scales for Major, Melodic minor and Harmonic minor. It'll make it easier and you will be able to think about actual musical context in actual pieces if you know how the chords fit the scales and visa versa.
Also in the string or flow of voices, at some point you're going to have to switch string sets. How fluidly you do this depends on how second nature the shape of a chord is on any given set of strings.

As with all of this material, everybody is in the same pool before long. Veteran players, those new to the game, we'll all be finding new stuff to WOW about, but another thing I've observed 5) students think the task is beyond them and they quietly give up.
There's no inherent difference between those that master material and those that spend their lives wondering why they play the same things, except the point at which they stopped advancing.

Can some of the others here give some ideas about what might be handy to be familiar with in the voice leading materials?
And can some of the starters please feel free to ask questions? I'd find it really helpful for the workbook.
Thanks
David

[jeromesteele]

"There's no inherent difference between those that master material and those that spend their lives wondering why they play the same things, except the point at which they stopped advancing."

This is true. And inspiring.

[driskel]

Thanks David, for the encouragement and words of wisdom. Since I am the beginner here in every sense. I will highlight what I will work on to prep for this journey. In terms of giving up due to the challenge this will be an interesting experiment for myself. I hope I can offer you value back.

Maybe I can contribute a bit of a checklist for the beginner like me.

1) Know the name of all the notes on the neck. Learning the octave patterns can facilitate this process, at least for me they did.
2) Understand the chord qualities of the harmonized scales.

Major - W,W,1/2,W,W,W,1/2
I M7, ii m7, iii m7, IV M7, V7, vi m7, vii m7b5

Natural Minor
i m7, ii m7b5, bIII M7, iv m7, v m7 / V7, bVI M7, bVII7

Melodic Minor - W,1/2,W,W,W,W,1/2
i m(M7), ii m7, bIII M7#5, IV7, V7, vi dim 7, vii m7b5

Harmonic Minor - W,1/2,@,@,1/2,1 1/2, 1/2
i m(M7), ii m7, bIII M7#5, iv m7, V7, bVI M7, vii dim 7

3) Learn Drop 2 Chords inversions
Drop 2 Chords & Voicings For Guitar

4) Learn Drop 3 Chords and inversions
Drop 3 Chords & Inversions

5) Learn Drop 2 and 4 Chords and inversions

Thanks for the comments and letting a beginner like me participate.

Michael.

Goodchord for the beginner.
I think this is really exciting. The more I teach, the more I realize that 1) Jazz is a lot more complicated than most beginners comprehend. 2) there are inherent built in limitations to fretboard mastery that make the learning curve a little easier (grabs, for example, and harmony reduced to drop 2 voicings...) 3) there are things that pianists, composers and arrangers take for granted that are considered impossible for guitarists. 4) Guitarists arrive on the doorstep of jazz land and many are paralyzed by the task put before them.

So the idea of starting with a new landscape, this is really such a great thing.

The almanacs are written without notation. This is to avoid the shortcomings of the notational system in seeing relationships, but also so everybody can jump in with this material.
On the flip side, you must know the names of all the notes all over the fingerboard. This is not only helpful, but when you're trying to learn one thing (to see how voices move AND to hear it) you don't want to even be doubting where that Eb is.
Notation is a good, no a great skill to have but not overtly necessary in Almanac land.

David, I do know the notes up and down the neck, via learning the octave patterns. I run through all the notes on the neck for about 5 minutes a day as a practice drill.

It'd be really helpful if you knew the voicings of drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 + 4 in all inversions, on all string sets because the groupings do follow chord families and if you have some muscle memory in your hands, it will go much faster.
The voice leading takes you through cycles, so know enough about harmony to know the chord qualities of the diatonic scales for Major, Melodic minor and Harmonic minor. It'll make it easier and you will be able to think about actual musical context in actual pieces if you know how the chords fit the scales and visa versa.
Also in the string or flow of voices, at some point you're going to have to switch string sets. How fluidly you do this depends on how second nature the shape of a chord is on any given set of strings.

I know the diatonic harmony for both the Major and Natural Minor scales. I will start drilling the other two to help get the diatonic harmony more in my ears, head and hands.

I do not know at least by term or name the drop chords. I will start drilling those as well, to get them in my ears, head and hands.

As with all of this material, everybody is in the same pool before long. Veteran players, those new to the game, we'll all be finding new stuff to WOW about, but another thing I've observed 5) students think the task is beyond them and they quietly give up.
There's no inherent difference between those that master material and those that spend their lives wondering why they play the same things, except the point at which they stopped advancing.

Can some of the others here give some ideas about what might be handy to be familiar with in the voice leading materials?
And can some of the starters please feel free to ask questions? I'd find it really helpful for the workbook.
Thanks
David

[dasein]

i've spent the last couple weeks moving and unpacking so missed the latest stuff, but man.... Dave/TruthHertz, i'll take whatever you got

in fact, if you are at least an intermediate guitarist and you're NOT interested in Dave/TH's extremely generous offer, then perhaps the John Petrucci forums would be more of your speed

[driskel]

I have been playing around with the Cycle 6, Major Triad (1 3 5 closed) in C last night and today from this site. While it is slow going I like what I am hearing.

As a beginner, my first impressions and comments for other beginners are:

1) Do not get discouraged, go slow and enjoy the sounds. It is ok to be lost, I can see an immediate improvement on the 2nd day, in left hand technique as well as improving the ear.
2) If you do not know the neck in terms of notes that is ok, you will struggle but go slow. Running and working through the cycle, while saying the triad name and as well as reciting the notes does offer great note to neck recognition training. In fact I am thinking about combining this with note training. It is a lot more fun.
3) running the cycle is a great approach to hear diatonic harmony at work.
4) I can hear this in context of modern music with 2 guitar instrumentation, being able to keep two guitars out of each others way in the song.

My first two cents, take it for what it is worth.

Thanks,

Michael

[ronjazz]

That's been my experience, Michael. Cool sounds and real knowledge from the first day of working out of the book.

[driskel]

That's been my experience, Michael. Cool sounds and real knowledge from the first day of working out of the book.

Thanks Ron.

One other recommendation for the beginner, When reciting the note names of the chord, pay attention to the interval, the note name, as well as chord name. This will help with chord recognition in the future.

Thanks again all.

Michael