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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Counterpoint is embedded into jazz anyway. Guide tones in Cycle 4 progs are an example of contrapuntal schemata - one that goes way back to, well Bach, and before. Barry Harris stuff uses contrapuntal principles, such as similar, contrary and staggered (borrowings) motion.
Species counterpoint is kind of like explaining the rules of chess. Things like Cycle 4 shell voicings/guide tones are more like common openings that people use that follow the rules but work very well for various reasons. (Literally an opening in the case of the Bach above.) Things like the melodies of Autumn Leaves, ATTYA and so on reflect realisations of these pre-baked 'four knights game' type sequences of moves.
One thing I noticed - Falling Grace by Steve Swallow obeys the rules of species counterpoint between bass and melody (I think) - it does not follow the standard cliches one would use in this context. Which I thought was interesting.
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03-09-2024 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
FYI, I'm not that interested in the more period correct approaches to counterpoint. I'm happy with exploring the voice movements in various cycles as well as just thinking movements as consisting of separate bass, melody and inner voices. It's amazing what you can do by starting with a mostly scalar bass movement, then adding a melody on top and finally experimenting with different middle voices. But I'm still firmly grounded in everything I know about harmony as my reference (even when I'm not aware that I am, lol). Moreover, I hear the movements in relation to these references (like most people in the 21. century would). So that's why I'm curious if it's even possible for someone who is trained in modern harmony to be able to eliminate that reference when thinking contrapuntally?
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Another interesting point is that, are these voices melodically independent? Not really. So what we often consider counterpoint is really something in-between vertical harmony and counterpoint.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
I also don't see it as a way of understanding harmony exactly. Without wanting to sound obtuse and ciruclar, I see counterpoint as a way of understanding the counterpoint of standards, which is a separate, if related feature. Harmony is another feature. As is melodic contour, form, etc etc.
I think there's something missed in the conventional approach to schemata in jazz which is we look at C A7 Dm7 G7 for example and call it a turnaround. In fact there are effective counterpoint ideas that work very well with that basic progression, and show up in jazz. The guide tone thing is an example of this - but while 3rd and 7th are the classic choice for circle 4 progs, they are not the classic choice for all progressions. Also a II V I has different characteristics melodically from a Cycle 4 chain, you don't see nearly as many standards melodies for example based on guide tones through a II V I. In the latter case it's quite common to find a melody that goes IIm9 V13 and then to the root of I, for instance. On dozens of standards. Even without dwelling on the history of music, this strikes me as something that might be useful to write about.
FYI, I'm not that interested in the more period correct approaches to counterpoint.
But as much as I enjoy the style of that harmony and as pretty as it sounds, that' snot my ultimate goal. I mean I'd need to be a better classical musician for starters.
OTOH I think there's also something here which exists independent of wanting to improvise like Bach or whatever. There's a lot of stuff that crosses over, and this logic could still be interesting for stuff that doesn't (like Wayne tunes.)
I'm happy with exploring the voice movements in various cycles as well as just thinking movements as consisting of separate bass, melody and inner voices. It's amazing what you can do by starting with a mostly scalar bass movement, then adding a melody on top and finally experimenting with different middle voices. But I'm still firmly grounded in everything I know about harmony as my reference (even when I'm not aware that I am, lol). Moreover, I hear the movements in relation to these references (like most people in the 21. century would). So that's why I'm curious if it's even possible for someone who is trained in modern harmony to be able to eliminate that reference when thinking contrapuntally?
For example, have you noticed how many tunes with some sort of descending chromatic voice leading in the harmony focus melodically on the fifth and then the fourth of the key? This is contrapuntal archetype that dates from the C18, and it's everywhere from baroque to, well, rock. I bet Mehldau's noticed lol.
So it kind of opened my awareness up to that kind of stuff. The main thing I've found it good for is composition, solo jazz guitar and reharmonisation. Jazz improv? Not so sure. For instance Charlie Parker doesn't really play melodic sequences in the same way that you find even in jazz composition. Melodic sequences are a big part of this stuff, and jazz repertoire is full of them, but not in Bird's solos. That's interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting. Functional harmony works. But not everything that works is functional harmony.
The way I view it , what we refer to as music theory is about categorising features of music. Function is one aspect which may be apparent in some music, or not. The more types of theory you have, the more things you can get from analysing music.
Several theorists have noted that when the three functions theory became established (predominant, dominant, tonic) people started writing more progressions that worked that way. There's loads of stuff in so called common practice music (curly wig music) that breaks those rules.
Another interesting point is that, are these voices melodically independent? Not really. So what we often consider counterpoint is really something in-between vertical harmony and counterpoint.
If you are talking about the way classical composers studied, counterpoint is kind of the same thing as ... I want to say voice leading? But the logic of harmony. It doesn't work from a preset progression in the same way as jazz improv does. Even ground basses and things work a bit different.
So the Dvorak example is an example of Chorale texture. But in terms of how the voices move, you can look at them from the lens of counterpoint, as you could a Bach chorale. This might seem a bit odd because... block chords, right? But in fact the strictures of counterpoint function in the same way - and this is what we could call first species.
So instead of thinking of chord progressions and thinking of voice leading, you are engaging with voice leading immediately. You think about the intervals between the voices and the way they move and if needs be are prepared and resolved.
In fact today Bach's chorales are usually taught in terms of functional chord progressions with voice leading considered secondarily. In Bach's era, he would teach from the bass line. You'd come up with a whole bunch of bass lines that represent good counterpoint to the chorale and then populate the inner voices accordingly.
This is actually a really good way to work on interesting reharmonisations for standards. Come up with a bassline, drop in the inner voices after.
I don't really see any compelling reason to think about chord function in this context. I think it just complicates things wondering whether you wrote a II V I or a IIIm chord or whatever. If you’ve practiced this stuff well enough you can write convincing stylistic harmony without a thought and if you don't want to write trad harmony it scarcely matters, you can experiment and choose according to your own preferences and make your own personal language.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-09-2024 at 05:14 PM.
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Btw I’ve never really seen chord scales to be of much use when understanding chord progressions. Does anyone else find them useful for this?
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Of course you can expand this as a progression. Then iv minor (the ii of backdoor dominant) becomes MM etc.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Honestly the title is clickbait and conceptually there’s nothing much different than what you’re talking about here, but it’s an interesting take
Why I Stopped Using Scales - YouTube
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Liarspoker
Favourite bits
That move from G7/Am in the B section - Bach is the interrupted cadence master imo.
Also (possibly more relevantly) there’s a lovely descending figure
This thing could be interpreted as a triadic cycle 6 on each bass note - on the first on Am, F/A, Dm/A then G, Em/G, C/G etc. Which is a nice thing to have on a stepwise descending bass
I actually think what it is to my ears the harmony is an incomplete 5-6-2 (5 3 - 6 3 - 6 4 2) in figured bass which would be Am, F/A, Bm7b5/A, G, Em/G, Am7/G etc which is similar. As the 2 isn’t in the music this is purely implied and how I’d expand it to 4 voices.
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Also that delicious pre-cadence thing in the last bar of the bit I posted. Those two scrunchies are both incomplete Dm6 (or the second is Bm7b5/F if you like, same thing).
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I'm not learning the suite yet. Just revisiting some grade 7 and 8 pieces.
I might do the bridging year before the ATCL diploma ( if I do it, time is my enemy ). My classical technique needs it.
Btw I am noticing more schemata in classical music especially like your example above. Scalar descending bass harmonized with the 10th or 6th.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
For now, try playing/singing
Blue Skies
Insensatez
Chim chim cheree
In Walked Bud
No Moon At All
It Don’t Mean A Thing
Exit Music For a Film
Hotel California
It Was Just One of Those Things
Corcovado
Back to back in the same key. The effect is quite funny, even though the tunes don’t all share changes, the affinity is kind of obvious.
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This Saturday April 6 I'll have a Zoom to discuss voice leading strategies over traditional standard harmonic movement using Almanac and modal interchange structures.
In other words: Nice hip progressions that sound beautiful and give you new ways to see chord movement.
All are welcome.
1PM EST
Launch Meeting - Zoom
Come by and see what the fun is about!
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Reply moved to:
George Van Eps - Harmonic Mechanisms for GuitarLast edited by Mick-7; 04-06-2024 at 12:17 PM.
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For anyone interested in a Zoom meeting discussing specific, general, practical, theoretical, expansive, improvisational and compositional aspects of Almanac material, there'll be a ZOOM this Sunday June 2 at 3PM EST. All are welcome.
Launch Meeting - Zoom
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I have been experimenting since the last zoom meeting with composition using but strict composition and composing using improvisation.
It seems like the stuff that I write is different from what I Improvise and vice versa. Composing allows search for things you know but don't use often whereas with improv you play what you know most of the time.
Improv also leads to happy accidents. I was messing with A minor this morning and came up with this.
Edit. The original melody starts on the major 3rd then ascends to the 4th. In this minor version the melody starts on the major 2nd and ascends to the minor 3rd.
Lots of other fun stuff happening too.
Last edited by Liarspoker; 06-05-2024 at 10:25 AM.
Arrangements of Furniture
Today, 09:59 PM in Improvisation