Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

[Christian Miller]

Improvisation on some of the worlds opened up by the 3 part quartal cycle 2/7 thing

It's not strict, I'm improvising but it starts with some of these ideas and voicings.

Stream Three part quartal improvisation 1 by Christianm77 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

quite pleased with how this is progressing

[Liarspoker]

Improvisation on some of the worlds opened up by the 3 part quartal cycle 2/7 thing

It's not strict, I'm improvising but it starts with some of these ideas and voicings.

Stream Three part quartal improvisation 1 by Christianm77 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

quite pleased with how this is progressing

Sounds great Christian!!
Would love to see a video next time

Super great that someone else apart from me is posting their explorations.
Keep 'em coming lads

[Liarspoker]

Following on from Christian's example here is a bit of rambling starting with the first chord from volume 1 four part 4ths. Cycle 6 to a II V I then descending to the V.

How are all you guys doing? Would love to see a few clips ?

[Liarspoker]

This is probably obvious to those that have been messing with 3 part fourths (Christian and Mick) but I just want to leave this here for anyone that is starting to work with them.

Each inversion has the same sequence of fingeringsvwhen playing as a chord scale as follows.

Chord 1 fingering

Chord 2 same as Chord 1

Chord 3 Different

Chord 4 same as 1

Chord 5 same as 1

Chord 6 same as 1

Chord 7 Different than chords 1 and 3

This makes it easier to improvise if you are messing with one inversion and it also helps when moving from cycle to cycle.

Happy picking all

[Mick Wright]

This is probably obvious to those that have been messing with 3 part fourths (Christian and Mick) but I just want to leave this here for anyone that is starting to work with them.
...

Hi Liarspoker,

It's probably just me being slow or not following the thread closely enough, but I was struggling with this one. Which scale are you using, for your 'chord scale' fingerings for chords 1-7 in your latest post, #1054, please?

Is this what you mean?



All the best
Mick W

[Liarspoker]

Hi Mick,

Apologies, I just replied to your pm.

Your example above is exactly what I mean. The chord fingerings change on 3 & 7.

The same holds true for all inversions of the I chord.

[Mick Wright]

Thanks L.

I was being slow on the uptake! Thanks for the clarification.

With the voice-led versions of the cycled fourths there is the added complication of the many shared notes between various stacked 4ths, as well as the unfamiliar sounds and shapes. Using your parallel voicings removes that complexity for anyone just starting on these chord-types: once the ears and fingers internalise the sounds of the chords it's easier to move on to the more complex voice-led sequences. Here's one I enjoy playing with:



All the best,
Mick W

[Liarspoker]

Thanks Mick. I'll play through those tomorrow.

I see your example as F Lydian. Is that how you see it too?

For those that have TAG, I was just doing some bedtime reading and saw that Mick (Goodrick) described what I was trying to say at the top of page 50.

Upwards and onwards.

[Mick Wright]

Thanks Mick. I'll play through those tomorrow.

I see your example as F Lydian. Is that how you see it too?
...

Thanks, L.
Honest answer, no, my ear heard this in C major as I was playing it and as I sketched out the sequence. (There's lots of potential for many of these chords to be played an octave lower or higher, as well.) When practising these, I started out simply thinking of the voice-led triads (close and spread) in C and then changed the thirds to fourths in each chord. I'm enjoying trying out your 'Lydian' suggestion now and tuning the low E up a half-tone to F, to use as a drone, which works well for this. (Zappa-jazz!) Likewise, a low D drone produces some well-connected Dorian voicings.

One of the most special things about these fourth voicings is that they are so ambiguous and versatile. The Advancing Guitarist p.78 has a whole page of uses for just one pair of perfect fourths (GCF), harmonised 23 different ways, in a dozen or so major and minor keys. It's endless, but in a good way!
All the best,
Mick W

[Christian Miller]

Thanks, L.
Honest answer, no, my ear heard this in C major as I was playing it and as I sketched out the sequence. (There's lots of potential for many of these chords to be played an octave lower or higher, as well.) When practising these, I started out simply thinking of the voice-led triads (close and spread) in C and then changed the thirds to fourths in each chord. I'm enjoying trying out your 'Lydian' suggestion now and tuning the low E up a half-tone to F, to use as a drone, which works well for this. (Zappa-jazz!) Likewise, a low D drone produces some well-connected Dorian voicings.

One of the most special things about these fourth voicings is that they are so ambiguous and versatile. The Advancing Guitarist p.78 has a whole page of uses for just one pair of perfect fourths (GCF), harmonised 23 different ways, in a dozen or so major and minor keys. It's endless, but in a good way!
All the best,
Mick W

The assumption I made is that any of the cycles in the book should be applied the way you would normally apply scale material. You can practice playing them over a drone or pad chord using a loop pedal or a ehx freeze (I must have a play with my Gamechanger Plus actually)

Some cycles and interval stacks are obviously better suited than others. Cycle 4 in seventh chords is always going to sound like cycle 4….

With quartals the most obviously useful ones are Dorian, Lydian and maybe Mixolydian. Ionian, Phrygian and Aeolian have some pretty scrunchy notes so the chords they produce will be more dissonant, which might be a feature rather than a bug depending. If you are voice leading them in interesting ways it produced some cool quasi tonal harmonic motion once your ears get used to them (different from the more obvious tonality of the stuff in vol 1)

And then you have the melodic minor modes which tend to be more generally applicable as colours.

the harmonic minor ones will be more dissonant.

But I’m pretty basic, thinking what cool thing can I use on a tune where a chord sits around for a while; impressions, inner urge, caravan, that sort of thing. Not so much for the ‘practice this and everything will become cllear in a decade.’ I’ve already learned a hip way to comp chords on Dorian so I can take that to the bank. Break them up into single notes and you have hip lines.

I like to think in terms colour scales and dynamic scales. Colour scales have few or no crunchy notes and are available for, well, colours. They sort of sit and look pretty there like Dorian, lydian, Lydian aug, the major pentatonic and so on. Dynamic scales have crunchy notes that want to go somewhere like the 4th in major or the b6 in minor, so ionian, aeolian, Phrygian Dom and so on.

[Christian Miller]

That said, because chord scale theory is a massive simplification of how intervals actually work, I’m finding some of the Lydian and Dorian chords surprisingly spicy in a good way! For example a #4 is not the same thing as #11, and so on… I’m general the #11 generally sounds consonant because we give it some sort of context as part of a triad or fifth type structure in our ‘standard grips’; without that, the note becomes much more scrunchy.

(In fact Warne Marsh demonstrated that the #1 can be a consonance if supported with the right harmonic structure and of course Collier has taken this to the nth degree.)

i like this because these modes can sound a bit …. open? Easy? A bit fusion (nothing wrong with that but I’m not drawn to it emotionally.)

Ben Monder (and other modern chordists) exploit this in built weirdness endlessly of course. A sort of brooding witchy New England vibe in Monder’s case, which I can relate to.

[Liarspoker]

I find the almanac explorations and this thread endlessly fascinating.

For example Christian's SoundCloud track starts with an Esus2/A which is such a cool sound.

The F is a fairly regular sound. I suppose because the bass is part of the chord then there's a lovely little move into the G and I believe a b2 over A before moving to A proper?

The point of this is that it's really all about sound. It's great knowing the theory of how it's put together but really at the end of the day it's all about sound.

Am I right that Mick G talks about drone bass notes etc in the intro to volume 1 or 2. I remember something along those lines. I must check later today....

[Christian Miller]

I find the almanac explorations and this thread endlessly fascinating.

For example Christian's SoundCloud track starts with an Esus2/A which is such a cool sound.

Does it? Cool.

The F is a fairly regular sound. I suppose because the bass is part of the chord then there's a lovely little move into the G and I believe a b2 over A before moving to A proper?

I don’t know the names of any of the chords I played in that one. I’m not sure all of them have names. Im just thinking movement in A Dorian eventually moving to C Dorian/A locrian at some point. Sometimes I follow the cycle sometimes I improvise more, but the voicings I play all come from inversions of quartals I think.

When I compose things using this type of harmony I’ll probably just write the voicings out in dots.

I’m pleased because usually it takes a while for stuff like this to ‘stick.’ But this one seems to be naturally becoming part of my playing quickly.

The point of this is that it's really all about sound. It's great knowing the theory of how it's put together but really at the end of the day it's all about sound.

Am I right that Mick G talks about drone bass notes etc in the intro to volume 1 or 2. I remember something along those lines. I must check later today....

Dont know to be honest. I’ll get round to reading those bits by and by. I just wanted to jump in and as much as I love the Advancing Guitarist it’s small doses all the way. I appreciate Mick’s enthusiastic style and vast depth of knowledge but sometimes it’s like being lovebombed by a Golden retriever while simultaneously being shoved into the Total Perspective Vortex. Which is to say, intense.

Drones seems an obvious way to practice them to me…. I remember Ben Monder talking about it in a tutorial once.

[Mick Wright]

I find the almanac explorations and this thread endlessly fascinating... Am I right that Mick G talks about drone bass notes etc in the intro to volume 1 or 2. I remember something along those lines. I must check later today....

Hi L.

This thread got into a good discussion about this a couple of years ago – check out posts 726-750.

10 pages into Almanac Volume 2 (there are no page numbers in the original book) Mick Goodrick gives us playing tips in the 'More About Fourths' section, saying that these sets of cycles work very well with a Dorian mode focus, and are particularly 'guitar-friendly', when played with the low E tuned down to D.

Alternatively, we might transpose the patterns up a whole tone (i.e. add C# & F#) and then use a low E string drone.

All the best
MW

[Liarspoker]

Some more explorations using three part 4ths.

What's new is the A in bass and sliding from chord to chord. A neat sound imo.

It's always good when a student cancels

[Liarspoker]

Here are the three inversions of II V I using the 3 part 4ths in D with the root bass notes in the bass.

A cool sound. Time to spend some time with the next string set I think.

There's a market gig on Sunday. Think I'll improv with the higher string triads a bit since they sound a bit scary (I'll have some Halloween decorations around me so the sus2 sound should fit right in).

[Liarspoker]

Hey Guys,

I've set up a virtual meeting with Ben Monder.

I want to ask him about his arranging ideas for the solo stuff on Day After Day as well as his compositional methods.

I also want to ask him how he worked through the almanacs and how he applies the cycles and/or voicings to his tunes (especially any solo stuff).

I'm just organising a list of questions now so am wondering what you guys would ask him?

TY

[Jimmy blue note]

Hey Guys,

I've set up a virtual meeting with Ben Monder.

I want to ask him about his arranging ideas for the solo stuff on Day After Day as well as his compositional methods.

I also want to ask him how he worked through the almanacs and how he applies the cycles and/or voicings to his tunes (especially any solo stuff).

I'm just organising a list of questions now so am wondering what you guys would ask him?

TY

You should know that he wrote a piece based on the Almanac material. He'll be happy to know others are actively working with that treasure trove too. People often ask "How is this stuff applied and how do you take it in this almanac form and make real music from it?" That's where having a disciplined personality and mind are really essential. Nothing Ben does is rote or stock. You'll have a lot of fun as long as you can keep your breath in the deep end of the pool.
Yeah tell him the guy from Boston says hello, heh heh.

[Liarspoker]

Thanks David. Do you have that piece that Ben wrote or will it be included in the almanacs when they are published next?

I'll tell him that you said Hi

[Jimmy blue note]

Thanks David. Do you have that piece that Ben wrote or will it be included in the almanacs when they are published next?

I'll tell him that you said Hi

It's in his hands. (It's likely there are only three people on the planet who can play it anyway)

[Mick Wright]

Thanks David. Do you have that piece that Ben wrote...?

Re. questions for Ben Monder (if I'm not too late). It would be great to see even a fragment or two from the score of the amazing 'Almanac' piece that Ben played last March for the Soapbox Gallery's Mick Goodrick Tribute show.

Was it using the three-part cycle work he refers to in his podcast interview with John Lamberton? (See post #836 above.)

Best wishes, Mick W.

[Jimmy blue note]

Re. questions for Ben Monder (if I'm not too late). It would be great to see even a fragment or two from the score of the amazing 'Almanac' piece that Ben played last March for the Soapbox Gallery's Mick Goodrick Tribute show.

Was it using the three-part cycle work he refers to in his podcast interview with John Lamberton? (See post #836 above.)

Best wishes, Mick W.

Three part fourths, cycle four if you want to get up to speed on the general cycle structure.

[neshkadrums]

Hi guys.What a lovely ,autumn friday night.With a pint and pipe, and for anyone who missed this !Cheers.

[Christian Miller]

Nothing from Liarspoker. I hope his brain wasn’t annihilated.

[Liarspoker]

Nothing from Liarspoker. I hope his brain wasn’t annihilated.

Yes, apologies for not posting. It's midterm here and my wife is in France playing violin so I was stuck minding the kids and playing taxi driver. Actually that's no excuse as I practised so much this week it was really unreal

So it was more of a chat as opposed to having a lesson. My notes are in the music room which is separate from the house and it's raining heavy so from memory.....

I asked about the writing and signal chain for the solo stuff on Day After Day. The recording secret is basically having two amps in stereo.

The way to write longer pieces is to develop the idea. I often write in short A and B sections etc. So time to develop the ideas.

I'm actually writing a lovely piece now which I'll hopefully end up recording for an EP which I'll hopefully release at some stage.

Anyhow we talked about the Bach Chorales. 90% of which are playable according to Ben.
I had started to work on Chorale 1 with each staff payed on a separate guitar. The idea was to record both parts.
After the chat I tried playing the whole thing at once and found that I can do it albeit slowly. So that's part of my practice routine.

We talked about the Van Eps book. Super and Sub and how they fit into your playing. The key part that Ben mentioned was that you have to pay things much more than you think to truly integrate them.

The almanacs were discussed. David was correct that the Goodrick tribute piece was composed of three part fourths. Ben played some of it for me and part of another piece written with the cycles.

I did ask if he could forward me a little of the Goodrick piece either in manuscript or a recording but he is not comfortable sharing at this stage which is fair enough.

He told me to make random diatonic shapes and move them through the scale. Also with interesting non diatonic shapes.

Also I have to dive deep into 7th chords although I'm enjoying triads at the moment and adding melody and bass notes etc so I'm playing 7ths by default but it's not a purposeful 7th study.

Very important also voice lead everything. He played me some scalar stuff then voice led it. A totally different sound and much better.

Ok have to bring one of the boys into town now. Later.....