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  1. #51

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    Nice!! I'm working with trying to acquire a feel for root movement inside of a cycle progression. I figure if I know where and how the root moves, knowing the chord grouping will assure my fingers fall into place easier. That's the idea anyway. I'm finding that horizontal awareness is coming on its own, slowly.
    I also find switching string groups still somewhat disconcerting.
    As far as putting this in a tune, the lateral root movement is opening up options every day.
    David

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    . I figure if I know where and how the root moves, knowing the chord grouping will assure my fingers fall into place easier.
    David
    This is why I do the exercise of each chord and it's inversions first. There is also a symmetry between what inversion follows another in a cycle. This should aid in improvisation and arranging.

  4. #53

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    When I broke these things out 20 years ago I used these systems, 7th degree chords, Triads over diatonic 2, Triads over diatonic 4th, and 4 note quartal chords and tetra chords. I think this covered all the 4 note possibilities.

    The 'natural' movement for 7th degree chords is cycle 4 and 5
    for quartal harmony cycle 2 and 7
    for tetra chords cycle 3 and 6

  5. #54

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    Well... I found a few errors in the harmonic major and harmonic minor diagrams I published earlier in this thread, So I removed the documents...

    (there were some double flat, instead of single flat, in some place. Guilty the auto-complete function of the spreadsheet!)

    I'm working on a new version of the document... if anyone interested...

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    Well... I found a few errors in the harmonic major and harmonic minor diagrams I published earlier in this thread, So I removed the documents...

    (there were some double flat, instead of single flat, in some place. Guilty the auto-complete function of the spreadsheet!)

    I'm working on a new version of the document... if anyone interested...
    interested

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    the harmony we know is like the fish in the sea. We think of all these kinds of fish, all shapes and sizes, but what we know is just the ones that live along the surface. They're sun loving creatures. Beneath that there's an ocean filled with creatures we've never encountered. These are the sounds that voice led cycles will reveal: beings with all sorts of things sticking out, strange shapes that move in beautifully unimagined ways. Then he played some and I swear it wasn't a guitar he was playing. Like Bach chorale meets Stockhausen.
    That sounds intriguing. What albums of Mr. Goodrick's should I check out to hear more about these innovative harmonic devices?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernandinho
    That sounds intriguing. What albums of Mr. Goodrick's should I check out to hear more about these innovative harmonic devices?
    free downloads here. Really great band. John Lockwood is an amazing accompanist...as is Mr. Goodchord!
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 07-12-2011 at 01:08 PM.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    free downloads here. Really great band. John Lockwood is an amazing accompanist...as is Mr. Goodchord!
    Sorry, I don't see the "here" link

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernandinho
    Sorry, I don't see the "here" link
    Jesus I'm sorry, must be the heat. This has been happening a lot.

    HERE IS THE LINK: Casa Valdez Studios: Jimmy Mosher- A True Voice

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Jesus I'm sorry, must be the heat. This has been happening a lot.

    HERE IS THE LINK: Casa Valdez Studios: Jimmy Mosher- A True Voice
    Thanks Jake. Wow! Lots of great music there, I'm listening to the first couple pieces now...

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hernandinho
    Thanks Jake. Wow! Lots of great music there, I'm listening to the first couple pieces now...
    My favorite is Mick's solo on the blues, I forget which head they use. What he does with the time makes for a very exciting experience. It's a shame more players don't harness the power of that kind of syncopation, rather than just burning 8ths.

  13. #62

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    I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than helping me learn my inversions of voicings all over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
    I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than helping me learn my inversions of voicings all over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...
    Did you get the impression he worked very quickly, finding nuggets and working them out into songs? Even he said this was a mountain!

  15. #64

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    I can speak for myself, that the Almanac(s) are meant as a reference guide, and not something that one ever expects to know from reading them. I will say, however, that the process of regularly working with the material begins to change an awareness from vertical to horizontal. Now when I solo, it's a lot more chordal and the lines flow a lot easier without being obvious to the changes. I can "feel" my way into voices better.
    If you wonder if he himself knows all that's in the books? Not as a player, no. He's staked out the corners that he likes, worked with them until they gave up "music" and then leaves it to others to do the same.
    In this group, I wanted to "get everyone in the car" so to speak, and start driving with each person telling things they see out their window. At some point some of us will take a turn off and if our spirit is a sharing one, report back on some sounds.
    Mostly it's just sitting on the egg until it hatches.
    It's kind of the ultimate guide to working inside the harmony. The next book is stuff outside. Once that is allowed, there's a lot of places to go.
    David

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I can speak for myself, that the Almanac(s) are meant as a reference guide, and not something that one ever expects to know from reading them. I will say, however, that the process of regularly working with the material begins to change an awareness from vertical to horizontal. Now when I solo, it's a lot more chordal and the lines flow a lot easier without being obvious to the changes. I can "feel" my way into voices better.
    If you wonder if he himself knows all that's in the books? Not as a player, no. He's staked out the corners that he likes, worked with them until they gave up "music" and then leaves it to others to do the same.
    In this group, I wanted to "get everyone in the car" so to speak, and start driving with each person telling things they see out their window. At some point some of us will take a turn off and if our spirit is a sharing one, report back on some sounds.
    Mostly it's just sitting on the egg until it hatches.
    It's kind of the ultimate guide to working inside the harmony. The next book is stuff outside. Once that is allowed, there's a lot of places to go.
    David
    If my post sounded hostile towards Mick's Almanac series I didn't mean for it to sound that way at all. By all means it is an incredible feat of musical knowledge to come up with all those voice leading techniques and it is a great resource, but I prefer the Advancing Guitarist because I feel it gives me simple ideas and food for thought to create my own musical methods. Although, after reading this thread I am tempted to dig out the ol' Almanac and dive back into it again

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billnc
    Did you get the impression he worked very quickly, finding nuggets and working them out into songs? Even he said this was a mountain!
    Haha, yes I did!

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
    Haha, yes I did!
    See, I was going to a Pat Martino 40 hour course, literally on the drive up Pat got sick again (he was not back, in fact this was before the ill fated 'Return' record was recorded) Mick took over the course and refunds were offered. I stuck it out, good decision.

    Pat and Mick are VERY different, I've met both. They seem to agree on this one crucial point. There are searchers and finders. You can't search endlessly (well you can but that's NOT the point) You have to find the nuggets that resound in you, work them out and move on. Find something else. I worked diligently for five years on the Advancing guitarist, and what I got from Mick at the course. You can lose sleep, there are days you go to bed and wake up in the middle of the night thinking "this works!" Go to the studio and flesh it out.

    I attended the course with my brother, all these years later he loves Mick the best as a teacher, because Mick teaches one how to think for themselves. The downside is you do waste a bit of time when you are discovering nothing, but even in these times you are learning to think.

    I'm still sorting through quartal again, but what I see as the next step (I don't know if Mick went there) is cycles through the various 'systems' i.e. alternating quartal, tertian and triads over bass notes with good voice leading. It never ends!

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billnc
    I attended the course with my brother, all these years later he loves Mick the best as a teacher, because Mick teaches one how to think for themselves. The downside is you do waste a bit of time when you are discovering nothing, but even in these times you are learning to think.
    !
    Yah. A long time ago I was equal parts 1)awe for players I loved, 2)dismay over how much there was to learn and 3)despondent over how little time it seemed I had in my life to learn it all.
    Quite honestly, I thought of all the people who's music I wanted to know and what if I spent years learning one way of playing so I could do it well and it wasn't right for me. I found Mick after a set one evening and at one point I expressed my fears of floundering, not having a voice, not knowing if my direction was the right one, wasting my time.
    He told me "Flounder! You should flounder. You don't always know where you're going but if you're aware, everything you learn along the way will be a part of who you will become." It gave me the encouragement to explore and I'm sure it's a big part of my needing to do things my own way.
    David

  20. #69

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    I have all three Mr Goodchord books and the Rhythm books, as well. It's great stuff, I especially love the third book because it mainly deals with clusters which you can use perfectly in modal music.

  21. #70

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    Could someone also start making a brief list of pieces containing the various cycles, in all or part of them?

    Like for example "all the things", first 5 chords of each progression...

    Cycle 4 :
    Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 (Ab maj scale)
    Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 (Eb maj scale)

    has anyone other examples?
    this could also be a way to learn playing them in different keys on the fly (didn't anyone meet e.g. a singer, saying "let's play it in Gb" ? )

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
    I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than helping me learn my inversions of voicings all over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...
    I agree that the Advancing Guitarist is certainly a more practical book, but I'd be surprised if Mr. Goodchord would even attempt to say otherwise - it's just a very different type of publication, plain and simple.

    I don't own the almanac, but my understanding is that it's not at all intended to be a "how to" guide for comping or voicings, but rather presenting a relatively unique approach to searching for new sounds on the guitar.

    It's not in a completely different world than Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - no where approaching 'essential reading' for a jazz guitarist, but at a certain point if the player is so inclined he or she could glean a lot of insight from the book.

    I actually might say that the Advancing Guitarist really is essential reading for a jazz guitarist today - not necessarily to do the whole thing as a workbook (that could take a lifetime) but rather to see the approaches laid out and use them to help inform one's decisions and attitudes towards playing and practicing.

    Like I said earlier in this thread, the almanac (and the contents of this thread itself) is something I'd like to dig into at some point in my life, but currently I'm working on things that are pretty separate from voice leading, so putting much attention towards this type of material would be a distraction for me. I do look forward to the time when more advanced voice leading becomes more of a priority in my study.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    Could someone also start making a brief list of pieces containing the various cycles, in all or part of them?

    Like for example "all the things", first 5 chords of each progression...

    Cycle 4 :
    Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 (Ab maj scale)
    Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 (Eb maj scale)

    has anyone other examples?
    this could also be a way to learn playing them in different keys on the fly (didn't anyone meet e.g. a singer, saying "let's play it in Gb" ? )
    On the fly? How 'bout flying to the moon?
    Fly Me To The Moon VI II V7 I

    Autumn Leaves II V I IV VII (V7 of V in the III position) VI etc.

    Both of those are cycle 4.

    You can look at There Will Never Be Another You as following a largely cycle 7 progression with secondary dominants in there.

    I'm also thinking that for each voicing group, there will be one most efficient solution for any given cycle, so even if a piece goes from one interval to another, you can still find a good voice led choice. You can of course work this out on paper by looking at the path of least leap-age but getting to know the feel and sound of these cycles should allow you to voice lead naturally by feel and sound.
    Hope that's helpful.
    David

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I agree that the Advancing Guitarist is certainly a more practical book, but I'd be surprised if Mr. Goodchord would even attempt to say otherwise - it's just a very different type of publication, plain and simple.

    I don't own the almanac, but my understanding is that it's not at all intended to be a "how to" guide for comping or voicings, but rather presenting a relatively unique approach to searching for new sounds on the guitar.

    It's not in a completely different world than Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - no where approaching 'essential reading' for a jazz guitarist, but at a certain point if the player is so inclined he or she could glean a lot of insight from the book.

    I actually might say that the Advancing Guitarist really is essential reading for a jazz guitarist today - not necessarily to do the whole thing as a workbook (that could take a lifetime) but rather to see the approaches laid out and use them to help inform one's decisions and attitudes towards playing and practicing.

    Like I said earlier in this thread, the almanac (and the contents of this thread itself) is something I'd like to dig into at some point in my life, but currently I'm working on things that are pretty separate from voice leading, so putting much attention towards this type of material would be a distraction for me. I do look forward to the time when more advanced voice leading becomes more of a priority in my study.
    I wouldn't worry about digging into the 1st Almanac book, it's pretty basic voice leading compared to the later books in the series. Interesting thing is that when I had class with Mick Goodrick last semester, he never even bothered to bring up the methods in his Almanac, even though that is his most well known body of work. I feel like the Thesaurus is a little more open ended and harmonically rich compared to the Almanac. At least, for my personal preferences, I gleaned more useful information out of the Thesaurus.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
    I wouldn't worry about digging into the 1st Almanac book, it's pretty basic voice leading compared to the later books in the series. Interesting thing is that when I had class with Mick Goodrick last semester, he never even bothered to bring up the methods in his Almanac, even though that is his most well known body of work. I feel like the Thesaurus is a little more open ended and harmonically rich compared to the Almanac. At least, for my personal preferences, I gleaned more useful information out of the Thesaurus.
    You get my point though, right? That it doesn't really make sense to compare the almanac to the advancing guitarist?

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    You get my point though, right? That it doesn't really make sense to compare the almanac to the advancing guitarist?
    Yes I get your point, but I don't mean to necessarily compare the two. I just noticed that both books were brought up on this thread and thought that the Advancing Guitarist was somewhat more practical for your average jazz guitarist.