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  1. #101
    Free again! The semester's over and that means a renewed devotion to serious studies outside of class demands. The modal compression book heads for the printers soon and that means distribution to a store in your neighborhood soon. Lots of examples, and a CD with examples and music played by Tim Miller and Mick. Soon.
    I want to talk Voice Leading Almanac and approaches a la Mick.
    The last I wrote here, I'd wanted to get some notes on how any of you tackle voice leading issues and how the Almanac plays a role in that. I'm back into revisiting and re-enforcing ideas in the next month. Here're some thoughts:
    I'm playing a lot of solo these days and I'm often reaching for voicings that have root movement in the lowest voice, sure it's the easiest to visualize but it means I have to get back to using voice leading better.
    So let me throw a wake up question out there, how many of you are actively voice leading your lines in a solo situation? When you comp? When you solo?
    I have lots of ideas that will make up my inter-session study but I'll throw them out there in the next post.
    David

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Free again! The semester's over and that means a renewed devotion to serious studies outside of class demands. The modal compression book heads for the printers soon and that means distribution to a store in your neighborhood soon. Lots of examples, and a CD with examples and music played by Tim Miller and Mick. Soon.
    I want to talk Voice Leading Almanac and approaches a la Mick.
    The last I wrote here, I'd wanted to get some notes on how any of you tackle voice leading issues and how the Almanac plays a role in that. I'm back into revisiting and re-enforcing ideas in the next month. Here're some thoughts:
    I'm playing a lot of solo these days and I'm often reaching for voicings that have root movement in the lowest voice, sure it's the easiest to visualize but it means I have to get back to using voice leading better.
    So let me throw a wake up question out there, how many of you are actively voice leading your lines in a solo situation? When you comp? When you solo?
    I have lots of ideas that will make up my inter-session study but I'll throw them out there in the next post.
    David
    are you at Berklee or elsewhere? just curious. (and maybe a little bit envious)

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    are you at Berklee or elsewhere? just curious. (and maybe a little bit envious)
    Yes, heart of Boston. Fortunate to be there, good to get away!
    David

  5. #104

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    great school. and well said.

  6. #105

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    Hi all, I've just joined this forum and this thread being my reason for doing so. I'm hugely intrigued as to your findings/work of your "Goodchord support group". I've been bashing away with volumes 1 since 2002 and volume since 2003. Are you all still wading through the books? I fully realise this thread is old and my post may drift into obscurity.

  7. #106
    Hey there LozRuston, I have to admit I don't come around the forum much anymore, not being a gearhead and too busy worrying about not being distracted from the "hands on." But very good question. Who's making something out of all the voice leading and, what I'm interested in is, what is the process?
    The deeper I get into both diatonic and non diatonic harmony, the less inclined I am to talk about it. Don't get me wrong, I love finding people with whom I can share ideas, but it seems there is, for me, a huge disparity between knowing what the theory is, and using it as an improvisational tool to put together a really logical solo where the tools have their place and not for showcasing technique.
    So let me follow this bump with a slightly different question, what is the form in which work on these volumes actually takes? How much time did you spend on the cycles until it began to become spontaneous?
    I ask this to those who have specifically recognized a change in their style being informed by goodchord material.
    Yes, I've worked with people in a free-improv and over changes who've used voice leading and they're instantly recognizable. I don't know anyone who's integrated it without at least two months of real immersion. That's what I'm asking: Who's gotten there and what did it take, and what does it sound like?

    What cycles are of greatest use and over what time and meter situations do you apply this? One chord per beat? Arpeggiated? Do you continue a voice led line over key changes?

    These days I'm dividing my time between voice leading (within the harmony) and non tonal sequential or hybrid linear progressions, both of which I am ultimately working to integrate into song forms.
    Anyone out there have any thoughts beyond speculation? Who's done the homework? I'd love to hear.

    David

  8. #107

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    Lucked out and remembered a Berklee alum friend of mine had copies of book I and II, grabbed them from him last night. I'm looking forward to digging in.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  9. #108

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    I have a process I've started with, going through the book, and I am on the last cycle of triads in C major.

    For a given cycle, let's say the first one, cycle 2, I will:

    Play the close triads on the guitar
    Play the close triads on piano
    It helps to play through the entire cycle and sing along with the top voice, then sing along with the bottom voice, then sing along with the middle voice, but I'll admit to sometime skipping this step - I probably shouldn't!
    In my head, I will try to hear and see cycle 2 close triads on the fretboard for all 12 keys, which can take some time. After I do this, I can pick up the guitar and play through the close triads cycle 2 in all keys pretty quickly on the guitar.

    Then same exact process for the open triads.

    Then onto the next cycle, close then open.

    I've found the more I do this the faster I can get to a point where the cycle is just a sound that comes out somewhat automatically on the guitar, no matter what key. I'm hoping it won't be all that much more effort with the four part chords.

    I have been doing a lot of solo improvisation that is NOT based on any tune, and I think working with this material will help me in these performances...to have more of an awareness of each voice when I am improvising chords, and to just have a greater range of material.

    I've learned a lot of interesting little things even just in the few days I've spent with these first cycles.

    A few little things that have stuck out:

    obviously, spread triads are a more open sound than closed, a completely different texture.

    looking at keys in cycle format allows for an interesting perspective on harmonic options, going from one place to the other. you see all diatonic options in a very simple way.

    there are three ways to harmonize, diatonically, a melody note as a triad

    there are ten ways total to harmonize a melody note with a triad.

    register makes a huge difference

    being able to play through a cycle quickly, and in different keys, seems a worthy goal. I'm really big on making sure something is actually integrated into my playing and my fingers rather than just having an intellectual awareness of what's going on. I want to be able to play! But I think doing work to try to hear the movement without the instrument actually makes it easier to then put it on the instrument...but I intend to do tests to make sure I'm not BSing myself.

    There's always the balance between glossing over a large amount of material and becoming very fluent and familiar with a small amount of material.

    Anyway, more observations to come as I work through. There's a lot of tangential stuff I've realized even just from looking at the table of contents of these books.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  10. #109

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    I am very interested to read what you are getting out of these books.

    I hope to dig in one day myself, when I can find a copy...

  11. #110

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    I think the purpose of the thread was to share discoveries made with the material. I've found lots of little things and big things I liked. Here's a little thing - arpeggiating the spread triads of one of the cycles:



    let me know if anything is unclear.

    Could be a neat line or concept for any F melodic minor harmony:

    Fminmaj7, E7alt, Bb7#11

    I am tuned down two whole steps, to C, sorry, so the example is in concert Db (minor) rather than F as it appears.

    I hadn't practiced the fingering for the higher octave at the end so that was clunkier.
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 02-02-2013 at 03:06 PM.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  12. #111
    Yeah! Really nice. Are you working with certain cycles or looking for a specific context to play a cycle over?
    I really like cycle 6 because every other chord is the pattern in cycle 4 which is so common in all jazz. I get to weave in and out of the harmony and every other change is just where you want it to be. I'll have to make an arrangement of All The Things with cycle 6 chord progressions.
    Nice playing, Jake!
    David

  13. #112

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    Thanks David!

    I am going through page by page and just listening and letting discoveries happen.

    Cycle 7 and Cycle 2 are interesting as they are laid out because they have the largest interval jumps between voicings, that was probably why Cycle 7 caught my ear here - it lends itself to this type of arpeggiation better than the other cycles. Not having repeated notes between chords is another factor that lends itself to smoother arpeggios.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  14. #113

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    Yeah, cycle 6 and 3 are the ones that evolve one note at a time.

    Part of the beauty of cycles is the timed arrival to a chosen destination,
    while integrating some additional engaging sounds along the way.

    Cycle 6 arrives at cycle 4 in 2 moves and at cycle 2 in 3 moves.
    Cycle 3 arrives at cycle 5 in 2 moves and at cycle 7 in 3 moves.

  15. #114

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    This stuff is fascinating to me... It is reason I joined this forum... I started working with the books.. I found all 3 vol. I just been going through them bit by bit. I sure been learning many chords and my voice leading chops have gotten better. I'm trying to find more applications of this stuff and the last few examples on this thread have some great ideas. Nice demo of the mel minor Jake... And I'd like to hear what kind of ways things like this , and TruthHertz's ideas as applies to ATTYA... Thanks y'all for sharing


    Todd

  16. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Yeah, cycle 6 and 3 are the ones that evolve one note at a time.

    Part of the beauty of cycles is the timed arrival to a chosen destination,
    while integrating some additional engaging sounds along the way.

    Cycle 6 arrives at cycle 4 in 2 moves and at cycle 2 in 3 moves.
    Cycle 3 arrives at cycle 5 in 2 moves and at cycle 7 in 3 moves.
    YES! and it invites crossing the bar lines with poly metric phrasing, 3 changes over 2 bars is pretty out when you hear it, but all in the cycles. I'd say, though, that one of the greatest challenges is to get to know this stuff by ear. It's one thing to work out the fingerings (can be a lot of work) but until it's in the ear, it was too easy to lose context of the piece, the songform, of the tune I was working with. It's like keeping your focus on two things at once, but since it's all tonal, or tonal with a dominant substitution if you're working with melodic or harmonic minor, it's very consistent within the cycle.

    David

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toddep View Post
    And I'd like to hear what kind of ways things like this , and TruthHertz's ideas as applies to ATTYA... Thanks y'all for sharing


    Todd
    here ya go!

    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  18. #117

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    Building on David's idea (the simple diatonic version) 1st 8 All The Things

    Cycle 6 (3 5 7 9---1 3 5 7)

    AbMa7 Fm7 | DbMa7 Bbm7 | Gm7b5 Eb7 | Cm7 AbMa7 |

    Fm7 DbMa7 | FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 G7 | Em7 Cma7 | (Am7 F#m7b5) ||

    Cycle 6 (5 7 9 11---3 5 7 9)

    Cm7 AbMa7 | Fm7 DbMa7 | Bbm7 Gm7b5 | EbMa7 Cm7 |

    AbMa7 Fm7 | Am7 FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 | GMa7 Em7 | CMa7 Am7 ||

    Cycle 6 generates a 2 voicings per chord option emphasizing various extensions
    depending where in the cycle you start. 7 9 11 13---5 7 9 11 (starting on Eb7 Cm7 etc.)
    is also possible but moves further astray from a clear statement of the chords
    which is a good or bad thing depending on.....

  19. #118

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    Thanks Bako for the quick reply and ideas, I'm gonna check this out soon..

    And thanks to Jake for the YouTube link, which leads me to my next question....

    What does Tim Miller eat for breakfast?

  20. #119
    This is becoming an exciting thread and it's giving me good cause to revisit this material in a fresh way. Thanks!
    I want to throw out a thought that may be part of a larger issue, something that can impart a larger sense of individualism to this ocean of material: Phrasing.
    Because the voice leading permutations and cycles are presented in a, for a lack of a better term, mathematically exhaustive manner, there's a danger that, taken as is, it can become an exercise; cold and flat. Of course harmonically it's complex and rich, but I'd be really interested in how people are using this rhythmically.
    Too often, especially among the older bebop based practicioners, there's a criticism of modern players for being unintelligible. Formulaic. Unfeeling. This is due in part to material that is "run" without being sung. Now this Goodchord material is really challenging- to take these cycles and make them breathe the same way a uni-harmonic phrase would. The perspective of breathing is different, the architecture of pulse is different. But some players can make a solo breathe without compromising complex material... and other players are musical machine gunners. It should be a choice that comes from awareness, not a habit that you're left with from practicing without phrasing.
    Anybody else struggling with this issue, either in accepting this material, or finding a use for it, or making it fit into your own style?
    Did you know that Mick also wrote a book on rhythmic permutations? Ways of grouping notes with space that can make you very aware of beat, how to hear and use notes within a measure. It may or may not necessarily be of use, because personally, I think rhythmic sense is a very personal issue, maybe one that is introduced after the strictly melodic and harmonic ones have begun to become internalized.
    Anybody think about these things? Thoughts or musings?
    Some of this was alluded to in being able to fit 4 note voices within a space where 3 chords (to an arrival point) need to be covered. Some of it comes from just realizing that 4 notes might be 2 16th notes, a dotted quarter and an eighth in a series that will eventually make its own sense of cycle. Who knows?
    Just my present fascination with bringing life to these unexpected and amazing sounds.
    David

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toddep View Post
    What does Tim Miller eat for breakfast?
    Obviously "Rock Star!"

    I wonder if he covers any of the Goodrick voice-leading and/or chords (Miller/Goodrick book) in his online school??

  22. #121

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    Oh yeah, rhythm.
    So far I mostly have practiced this material 1 or 2 chords per bar choosing a basic rhythmic figure for each cycle that sometimes evolves. It is obvious that more can be done creatively and I will take your thoughts as impetus to integrate it into my practice.

    At the same time, there is also something said for keeping it simple, meditative, focusing on the movement of voices. Sometimes I play against the bass motion generated from Finale and other times I like to play each cycle against a drone of each note to teach my ears how well each chord functions as an extension or approach chord in relation to each modal degree.

    I am not as smart and patient as Jake, waiting till I fully master something before I move on.
    These are a few things that I think about, have jumped ahead and played around with.

    The integration of scale pairs, different strategies of alternating or combining the harmonies of 2 scales.
    On one hand it generates interesting esoteric sounds that surprise me in some ways, sounding both very fresh and at the same time just a small variation off of the 1 scale diatonic counterpart.

    I like to add improvised and or mechanical connective melodic content to the cycles.

    Another area that I have only touched upon is the integration of different voicing spreads alternating between 2.

    A thought I had this morning as yet unexplored, can songs be understood as multi scale, multi cycle collections as a compliment to the typical analysis methods. It of course begs the question, what is gained by this viewpoint to which my answer so far is I'm not sure.

    While the cycles themselves can be used as approach chords as in the example above, another possibility is to insert an approach chord (V7 or bII7 being the most obvious) before each chord in the cycle.

    The integration of 2 cycles.

    Cycle 4 with cycle 3 interpolated (borrowing a Sloninsky big word)

    I (III) IV (VI) VII (II) III (V) VI (I) II (IV) V (VII) I

    I operate on the idea that material I spend time with will somehow organically integrate itself into my playing but you raise the question as to how to be proactive in this regard. I saw a quote yesterday from Danilo Perez
    (my paraphrase) who said he felt overwhelmed initially at the level of improvising going on in the Wayne Shorter band, having difficulty following the movement of keys, etc.. He said he addressed this challenge by practicing improvising scores to cartoons with the sound turned down. Improvisation is about being fully engaged and less about executing the mechanics. How to integrate mechanical study efforts into creativity is a very important question.

  23. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Oh yeah, rhythm.


    The integration of 2 cycles.

    Improvisation is about being fully engaged and less about executing the mechanics. How to integrate mechanical study efforts into creativity is a very important question.
    Yeah, integrating 2 cycles of course. The flow of changes within a piece changes its intervallic relationship all the time, and with the voice leading cycles in the ear, it's great to voice lead through a piece, or add a two step cyclic element to the movement of changes.
    How about integration of two voicings within one cycle? Drop 2 and drop 3 can make a nice lateral movement of chord density while staying within a given cycle.
    Mixing and matching voicings has a lot of interesting potential.

    Wow, so much to work with. Heh, none of this stuff means a thing without a lot of time getting it in the ear. But it opens doors.

    Hey try this one: 1st 5 bars of All The Things cycle 6 drop 2. Turnaround of your own doing for 3 bars in C. 5 bars of Cycle 6 in Ab drop 3 or something even more spread if you're arpeggiating. Turnaround of your choice for 3 bars in G.
    That could shake things up.

    Possibilities.
    David

  24. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Matildags View Post
    post may drift into obscurity.
    ??

  25. #124

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    I really can't thank you guys enough for sharing your investigations into this material on this forum.

    I don't have a copy of the books, but I am able, using the foundations Mr. Goodrick provides in Advancing Guitarist to derive the basic principles of the Almanac... Reading about your discoveries and the applications you have discovered has been very inspiring and provided me with a great deal of material to investigate in my own practice.

    i have benefitted greatly from your efforts and just wanted to know that you guys have a "fan" out there in the jazz guitar internet universe.

    jerome

  26. #125

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    Does anyone have a copy of vol. 2 or 3 that they would sell. Or a pdf? (since it's out of print). Pm me if anyone has pertinent info. Thanks!

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Building on David's idea (the simple diatonic version) 1st 8 All The Things

    Cycle 6 (3 5 7 9---1 3 5 7)

    AbMa7 Fm7 | DbMa7 Bbm7 | Gm7b5 Eb7 | Cm7 AbMa7 |

    Fm7 DbMa7 | FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 G7 | Em7 Cma7 | (Am7 F#m7b5) ||

    Cycle 6 (5 7 9 11---3 5 7 9)

    Cm7 AbMa7 | Fm7 DbMa7 | Bbm7 Gm7b5 | EbMa7 Cm7 |

    AbMa7 Fm7 | Am7 FMa7 Dm7 Bm7b5 | GMa7 Em7 | CMa7 Am7 ||

    Cycle 6 generates a 2 voicings per chord option emphasizing various extensions
    depending where in the cycle you start. 7 9 11 13---5 7 9 11 (starting on Eb7 Cm7 etc.)
    is also possible but moves further astray from a clear statement of the chords
    which is a good or bad thing depending on.....
    Cool...Just spent some time with these at the piano...

    Expanding on the first example, some form of 'modal interchange' (not really?) by borrowing the first chord of every pair from the parallel melodic minor but keeping the second as is. the dominants get melodic minor for both beats:

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 | DbMa7#5 Bbm7 | Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 | C7 AbMa7 |

    F7 DbMa7 | FMa7#5 Dm7 Bma7#5 G#minma7 | E7 Cma7 | (Aminma7 F#m7b5) ||

    it still is cycle 6 throughout, I like the alternation between Mm and major scale to add a bit of tension...I'm sure the concept doesn't have any limits...
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 02-07-2013 at 11:51 AM.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  28. #127

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    AbMa7#5 Fm7 | DbMa7#5 Bbm7 | Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 | C7 AbMa7 |

    F7 DbMa7 | FMa7#5 Dm7 Bma7#5 G#minma7 | E7 Cma7 | (Aminma7 F#m7b5) ||
    Trying to figure this out.

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min

    DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min

    Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt

    C7 AbMa7 --- ???

    F7 DbMa7 --- ???

    FMa7#5 Dm7 --- D mel min

    Bma7#5 G#minma7 --- G# mel min based on G7alt

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5)

    E7 Cma7 ---- ???

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5) --- A mel min

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, what is the genesis of the 7ths on the Ma7's
    Is it a V7 from the relative minor relationship?

    Ex. C7 Abma7
    relative minor of Ab is Fm and the V7 being C7

    The parallel mel min being Ab mel min doesn't include C7

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Trying to figure this out.

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min

    DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min

    Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt

    C7 AbMa7 --- ???

    F7 DbMa7 --- ???

    FMa7#5 Dm7 --- D mel min

    Bma7#5 G#minma7 --- G# mel min based on G7alt

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5)

    E7 Cma7 ---- ???

    (Aminma7 F#m7b5) --- A mel min

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, what is the genesis of the 7ths on the Ma7's
    Is it a V7 from the relative minor relationship?

    Ex. C7 Abma7
    relative minor of Ab is Fm and the V7 being C7

    The parallel mel min being Ab mel min doesn't include C7
    Ah, I'm sorry, my terminology wasn't clear. In each pair of chords (Except for ones that are originally dominant in ATTYA harmony) the second chord stays diatonic to the key center as you had in your initial presentation, but the first chord is altered to fit some melodic minor harmony - in this case either melodic minor (minmaj7,) lydian augmented (maj7#5,) or 'altered' scale.

    for the E7 to Cmaj7 stuff, I think of pulling the first chord from the lydian augmented pitch collection...so in ionian we get Em7 Cmaj7 for iii to I (Cycle 6,) in lydian augmented we get E7 Cmaj7#5 for III to I (still cycle 6.) Hope that makes sense. I like the sound.

    It's only the first of each pair that is borrowed from melodic minor harmony, except over the dominants where both chords in the pair are borrowed from melodic minor harmony.

    AbMa7#5 Fm7 ---- F mel min back to Fm7 as diatonic vi chord. just a way of spicing up Fm harmony

    DbMa7#5 Bbm7 --- Bb mel min to Bbm7 as diatonic ii chord. just a way of spicing up Bbm harmony

    Gmaj#5 Eminmaj7 --- E mel min based on Eb7alt (yep)

    C7 AbMa7 --- Ab lydian augmented to Ab as diatonic I chord. I think of the C7 as just extensions on an Abmaj7#5. You could think of it as Abmaj9#5 (lydian augmented) to Abmaj7(lydian or ionian), tense to less tense.

    ...

    F7 DbMa7 --- same relationship as above

    ...
    E7 Cma7 ---- same relatinship as above

    ...
    Aminma7 F#m7b5 - this is staying consistent with the pairing idea, first chord of a pair is from some type of relevant melodic minor harmony, and the second chord is back to the diatonic (in this case C lydian) harmony. So we have Aminmaj7 from C lydian augmented - then F#m7b5 as you had it, in C lydian. It's coincidental in this case that F#m7b5 is within both C lydian and C lydian augmented. Theres a consistency in the pairing of E7 to Cmaj7, then Aminmaj7 to F#m7b5 - lydian augmented to lydian, lydian augmented to lydian.

    Hope that makes sense...I can see how "parallel melodic minor" was a little misleading.



    m7 harmony - spice it up via melodic minor (Fm7 = F melodic minor)

    maj7 harmony - spice it up via lydian augmented (Abma7 = Ab lydian augmented )

    dominant harmony - altered scale

    and for other tunes/harmony

    locrian - - -> locrian nat 2

    phrygian - - - > - phrygian natural 13/dorian b9

    dominant not functioning as V7 - - -> lydian dominant
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  30. #129

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    Jake,

    Thanks, I would have seen it if I was looking at my original progression instead of AbMa7, but I didn't......

  31. #130

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    Cool, cool. I like that it's still cycle 6. Opens up interesting doors...keep cycles going but change things based on either the changing harmony in the tune, or a desire for a more colorful chord scale.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  32. #131

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    This stuff could be called "cycle superimposion"

  33. #132

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    Lunch sounds great! I've been trying to put a good hour a day towards the cycles...keeps me very busy with few moments to spare. Being aware of more of the potential results of my efforts is exciting, though I am big into pacing myself.

    my health has been a little better too so some playing would be nice as well...let's email
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  34. #133

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    Each diatonic cycle will pass through every scale tone. I threw this together to better visualize the number of moves it takes to get from point A to point B. More a lab tool than for the bandstand and I suspect I will only occasionally glance at it but sometimes the act of writing something leads to new observations.
    Here's a copy if any one else cares to occasionally glance.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  35. #134

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    What about three beats of cycle 2 to get to cycle 4? I have tried a few things and am not satisfied with the results.

    There Will Never Be Another Eulogy:

    Bbma7 - - |Eb7(lyd dom) - - |Ab7 (lyd dom)- - |G7 (altered)- - |C7 (lydian dom)

    First measure borrows from sixth mode of D harmonic major to get Bbma7#5#9 extensions:

    Dma7 Em7b5 F#m7 |Gm7b5 Am7b5 Bbminma7

    Cm7b5 Dm7b5 Ebminma7 | Fm7b5 Gm7b5 Abminmaj7

    Bbma7#5 C7 D7 | Em7b5
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  36. #135

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    Thanks to David/TruthHertz for going the extra mile to make me aware of Norm Zocher's materials on symmetrical scales that do not repeat at the octave.

    I've been having a lot of fun the past few days with this one:

    minor third, major third, major third, repeat. Really just root position minor triads ascending in major sevenths - C Eb G, B D F#, Bb Db F, etc. There's a lot I could say about it but I'll spare you guys the term paper.

    two triad cycles voice led in the below video, both over a bass pedal:

    (chord/note names are given in concert pitch but the guitar is tuned down two whole steps)

    1. G#m B+ D# then repeated a half step below (Gm Bb+ D etc) all over an E pedal...this is from the above scale...I stop at an arbitrary point that sounded good to me.

    2. Same scale but with a half step added below each tone...meaning the chords are approached from a half step below: G#m A#+ B+ D D# F#m then repeated a half step below (Gm A+ Bb+ C# D Fm etc). All over a G# pedal. Like in Mick's Cycle 2, the voice leading goes down. I like the sound, it's pretty wild but the pattern gives it consistency while the vertical consequence of the pattern sounds, well, how it sounds. Again I stop the cycle at arbitrary points then improvise resolutions.



    The concept of these symmetrical patterns that don't repeat at the octave is really mind blowing and eye opening. It truly does get you out of a tonal/modal perspective, or at least doesn't keep you in one for very long!

    It seems like there are so many places one could go with this stuff...if anybody wants to help me not reinvent the wheel, that's always appreciated...
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 02-25-2013 at 04:15 PM. Reason: mistake in chord progression
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  37. #136

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    To Jake Acci or Truth Hertz,

    Would you mind elaborating on the symmetric scales that dont repeat at the octave. I seem to recalll Holdsworth mentioning something about this in interviews. Something about scales taking 2 or 3 octaves to complete etc
    Thx
    cheers
    Last edited by Jazzism; 03-14-2013 at 10:30 PM.

  38. #137

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    Sure and glad to have some discussion of them.

    There's a lot to say

    a major scale is constructed of whole steps and half steps - W W H W W W H and then we are at an octave

    a pentatonic is whole steps and minor thirds - W W m3 W m3 W

    These are patterns of intervals that repeat at the octave.

    You could have any pattern that doesn't repeat at the octave and call it a scale and wind up with some interesting things, for example:

    W W W H

    It will take 12 cycles to come back to the beginning. A bit of it: C D E F#, G A B C#, D E F# G#, etc. It doesn't repeat at the octave, it repeats at the fifth, so it has to go through 12 cycles (the circle of fifths) before it's back to the original.

    The 'scale' I based my demo on is:

    m3 M3 M3

    C Eb G, B D F#, Bb Db F, etc. it repeats at the major seventh, so it takes 12 cycles before it's back to the original.

    I worked with the same scale but with extra passing tones:

    W H m3 H m3

    C D Eb F# G A#, B C# D F F# A

    Here's another sequence:

    M3 H W H

    that repeats at the m6 and takes three cycles to start over:

    C E F G Ab C Db Eb E G# A B

    You can use these sequences to make extended lines, voice led cycles like I did, permutate them for fast patterned 16th note runs that get you out of a conventional chord scale or group of extensions...

    Does that make sense?
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Sure and glad to have some discussion of them.

    There's a lot to say
    ...
    ...
    ...
    Does that make sense?
    Although it's logical, until now I never realized that (almost) all the scales we're dealing with rely on the octave as main interval! Within an octave we can use all kind of rules to subdivide it, but anytime the result is a repeatable block...

    This new perspective opens (to me) a complete new playing field... amazing.
    At first sight it seems a new harmonic system with more-than-seven-notes scale, based on intervallic patterns, and consequently a similar number of derived scales, modes, etc...

    And reasoning bacward, I could now see our "usual" harmonic system as a subset of this prinicple, based only on the interval of a second, wether major or minor... right?

    Wow, this is one of those "a-ha!" moments for me

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Here's another sequence:

    M3 H W H

    that repeats at the m6 and takes three cycles to start over:

    C E F G Ab C Db Eb E G# A B
    With octave reduction and rearranged, I see:

    C Db Eb E F G Ab A B

    In Messiaen's terminology, the generating sequence is HWH, which is "mode 3."

    Your approach to getting there is cool, as it gives a pathway to exploring the sound of the mode.

    I really geeked out on the Messiaen modes for a while, filling books with the sounds embedded. Nelson Veras helped me understand how to get some traction with the sounds and one of the keys to that was finding melodic patterns that repeat, like your M3 H W H sequence.

    Bryan

  41. #140
    Joseph Schillinger is a name to keep in mind. He searched for mathematical logic in visual arts as well as music. Some of his stuff translated to people like Coltrane through theorists like Roland Wiggins when they were both in Philly.
    In short, with the Schillinger system, you can make a scale with as few as 3 notes. The scale has a tonic and notes that make up the scale. Now if the scale has a construction where it doesn't end on the octave, but rather another note where it begins again but with the new tonic on a different note, it WILL take more than one iteration before it returns to the octave tonic.
    How does one use this knowledge? Well the "tradition" looks at the diatonic scales as the structures around which we play, so given a place to improvise, you're "inside" but in more expansive modern vocabularies, the spaces of improvisation can involve different sounds, or logic patterns that eventually converge with or create a point in a composition. Symmetrical scales are one way you can easily develop fluency in a different tonic arrangement, and play it as an alternative to an "inside" approach.
    The end result can be a beautifully fluid flow of sound that you wind up saying "What WAS that?" and then it's gone.
    You must be really fluent to pass this off though, because rhythmic consistency is a dead giveaway to lack of proficiency and in that situation it just sounds wrong.
    But once you begin getting these sounds in your head, small scales of less than an octave, it opens up really amazing cycles that once they complete, take you on a journey you can't think up without knowing them.
    Until recently, these techniques have been the realm of piano players, composers and horn players. Guitarists worship a different aesthetic.

    There are many ways of using any material, it's the responsibility of the artist to figure out a way to touch the listener. This material by it self can be meaningless streams of notes, or they can make you and your listeners look at sound and music in an entirely different way. It's a greater responsibility to work with new material because a lot of this is NOT immediately musical, you've got to figure out how to make it music. That's the criticism from a lot of people that want to feel, don't know how to recognize the thought process that the performer finds so exciting.
    I guess the learning curve on this stuff is a bit longer due to the fact that for each person at this point that wants to use it, it's truly your own wilderness, and anything you do, hasn't been done before. Kind of exciting, eh?
    David
    Last edited by TruthHertz; 03-25-2013 at 04:38 AM.

  42. #141

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    Thanks, David -- I always enjoy your stories (which means you can mark me down for a copy of your book when its finished!).

    Speaking of Mick ... did anything ever come of his "Falling Grace Variations" book that he told us about??

    Ciao,
    Marc

  43. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy View Post

    Speaking of Mick ... did anything ever come of his "Falling Grace Variations" book that he told us about??

    Ciao,
    Marc
    It's almost ready to go to Berklee Press. Soon.
    David

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    It's almost ready to go to Berklee Press. Soon.
    David
    Excellent! Thanks.

    M

  45. #144

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    Excuse me if this has already been posted.

    What is the almanac?

    thanks

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh View Post
    Excuse me if this has already been posted.

    What is the almanac?

    thanks
    "Mr. Goodchord's Almanac of Voice Leading" by Mick Goodrick. It's an out-of-print exhaustive list of how to voice lead various chord voicings through various root cycles. Pretty much described in depth in the first page of this topic thread.

  47. #146

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    Thanks

  48. #147
    I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through.

  49. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by goldrun77 View Post
    I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through.
    The almanac is actually the extended version of one of the chapters in Advancing. I'm jealous of you for having gotten through The Advancing Guitarist, it's been years and I'm still making my way around it.
    They're both works that try to paint a picture of the big picture. I don't think Mick ever intended anyone to actually get through the almanacs. Last weekend I was talking with a really remarkable guitarist, former student who's played with Mick, who's been working with the Almanac a lot. For him, it's not about making progress from one page to the next; it's not a linear book. For him, it's about being held accountable to a very controlled system, and through work in that way, acquiring an awareness of every note and its contribution to a harmonic progression. If you learn to use this material, he noted, you come to sense the movement of every voice. The benefits can be quite quick, and they will show up in the tools of improvisation and spontaneous composition, but I don't think it's a work to be gotten through.
    Neither is the Advancing Guitarist, for that matter. Maybe that's the beauty of the Goodrick books, they are constant companions for adventurous explorers.
    David

  50. #149

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    I don't know how many times I went to the Goodrick site when he had the books for sale but I was too cheap.

    Also when I googled for info on the book (probably well before this forum existed) all the reviews said not to bother with the book(s).
    I do have the advancing guitarist and the creative chordal harmony book so I will have to make do with those books plus the info on this forum and in this thread.

  51. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    Also when I googled for info on the book (probably well before this forum existed) all the reviews said not to bother with the book(s).
    .
    It is not a book most people would find useful, I will be the first to acknowledge. I have read statements on this forum that voice leading is not possible on a guitar given the limitations of the instrument. The prevailing mindset regarding what the guitar can and cannot do is based on traditions that have largely defined jazz guitar for better for for worse.

    For me, it's like a reference manual on alternative medicine. It's the musical equivalent of a digital rendering of body meridians, but if you study a different medicine... It realizes a vision one man had of a different way of treating the spectrum of harmonic and melodic interaction. It's not the way it's been done in the past. A person can now go and figure out these things on their own. The word is out. It is not a necessary part of being a "guitar player" but in the hands of an "Advancing guitarist", it saves the time one would have to spend to write it yourself. In the hands of a sonic explorer, the money is soon forgotten and the possibilities presented can give you new insight every day for the rest of your life.
    I agree, that most people should not bother. There's enough to worry about just learning about phrasing.
    For people actually working on it though, I'm really interested in sharing ideas here. We are breaking new ground and it's really helpful to be getting feedback.

    That may be helpful. Perhaps our pooled resources can also come up with the means by which this material can be shared within this group. Anybody have digital discs of the Almanac?
    David