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  1. #26

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    Yeah, once we get rolling, the possibilities get overwhelming pretty fast. 3 volumes fast. That's why I thought a support group and a finite quantity each week or so would be a good idea.
    When Mick was still writing the book, he gave me a formula and the way to put it together, just as an idea. I spent that summer in the desert in Nevada with a notebook just unravelling numbers and notes for hours. It was incredibly meditative and amazing. I started to see patterns emerging about the interrelationships of chordal groupings.

    d_del, do you have the voice leading books? bako's ideas are spot on, but there are also other ways to look at them that are unseen at this point too. That's why I wanted to chew on them a few days before we "debriefed" as a group. I am looking forward to this.

    David

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Just wanted to say I really appreciate this thread too. There are too many other things I'm working on right now to really dig into this stuff, but it's cool to see it's here when it's time for me to spend more time on this type of harmonic thinking.

    Really nice that threads like this can exist among all the...others.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    d_del, do you have the voice leading books? bako's ideas are spot on, but there are also other ways to look at them that are unseen at this point too. That's why I wanted to chew on them a few days before we "debriefed" as a group. I am looking forward to this.

    David
    Unfortunately not.
    (I can ask a friend to borrow his ones for a while, but don't see him often.)
    That's why i started to think this DIY thing...

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    yes, those are the one I copied from the keyboard-oriented article cited earlier in this thread, to test my "generator"

    Since it seems to work fine (but if you find errors, please tell me), the next step will be to implement all the open/closed triads, and the other scales.
    oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony
    I'm working pretty extensively on the 4 note quartal stuff and using his ideas.

    One thing in general, Mick has to have worked very fast to accomplish anything. Not all of this results in 'good stuff'. There are gems, I'm guessing grab these, mark them and move on.

    I've also found uses for chords I already know and inversions of those. It is one thing to know G13th chords all up the neck, another to know inversions of one G13th chord up the neck. Some of these chord shapes while sounding cool are VERY difficult to go from one to the next. This really helps get the grips together.

    Anything I can do to help, let me know. Very cool thread.

  7. #31

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    When faced with a voicing that I can't play simultaneously, I break it into fragments.

    Ex. for a 4 note chord

    1 + 234
    123 + 4
    12 + 34
    12 + 23 + 34
    13 + 24
    14 + 23
    12 + 13 + 14
    12 + 23 + 24
    13 + 23 + 34
    14 + 24 + 34

    Etc.

    I can be at times a bit of that other word for thorough. I try to not omit a voicing just because it's a bit unplayable.

  8. #32

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    The first volume (triads) is on arrival.. :-)

    Looking at all the combinations, it's going to be

    2 pages * 4 scales * 6 cycles * 2 positions (open/close) * 3 inversions

    ... wow... 288 pages!

    maybe making a file per scale is better...

    If someone could write some guidelines on how to use these diagrams, I'd be glad to insert them as an introductory page...

    oh, and is there anyone fond of Creative Commons licencing, and all that stuff?
    Ther shouldn't be any problem because I'm writing this "permutation exercise" from scratch, and moreover the original work in not available anymore... anyway I'd like NOT to be involved in any future legal dispute for this work... :-)

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    The first volume (triads) is on arrival.. :-)

    If someone could write some guidelines on how to use these diagrams, I'd be glad to insert them as an introductory page...
    There is an intentional lack of instruction in these books. You're supposed to just follow the notes and read them through and draw your own conclusions. That's why I wanted to make this group, so any pre-conceived notions about what you can or cannot do don't get in the way of what a small group of "advancing guitarists" can share after we've had some time to chew it up.

    I thought we'd let the comments of our group provide any further "liner notes."

    One thing people have done is play them as a group, each person taking a voice. It makes you listen to the whole, and you get a feel for the way a chord feels when approached very subtly. Anything you can do with another person will help a great deal.

    Also the book most definitely is NOT sequential. You don't go from one to another. You can of course if you want, but the people I know of that have used and benefitted from it tend to be pianists, and they often say they've thumbed through the book, cracked open a page and played it. If they like it, they work with it. It's up to us to call one grouping for study.
    I'd recommend we pick a chord type (ex: drop 3) a scale (melodic minor) and a key (C is a good standard, and since these forms are all movable, all other keys should be just as easy.) and work with all cycles.
    This gives us a sound, familiar chord shapes and plenty to think of as the voices find their qualities horizontally.

    Sound good?
    David

  10. #34

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    I've been reading the keyboard articles, and think I'm getting the idea. I guess you can just take a given starting chord, and then work through the cycles, using a particular scale, and see what the voice leading produces. Then figure out how to play it on the guitar! Am I in the right ballpark?

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meggy
    I've been reading the keyboard articles, and think I'm getting the idea. I guess you can just take a given starting chord, and then work through the cycles, using a particular scale, and see what the voice leading produces. Then figure out how to play it on the guitar! Am I in the right ballpark?
    Yes, even the mistakes can be cool. I miswrote a line and came up with a chord inversion that was valid and I never played before. I thought I'd worked out the inversions before hand. The voice leading was wrong but I've got a new inversion to mess with.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billnc
    Yes, even the mistakes can be cool. I miswrote a line and came up with a chord inversion that was valid and I never played before. I thought I'd worked out the inversions before hand. The voice leading was wrong but I've got a new inversion to mess with.
    Cheers Bill, I guess I will get started with something before long. So far there has been quite a lot talked about triads - not something I've gone into in great detail before, I tend to take 7th chords as a starting point. So I'm thinking maybe I'll look at 4 note voicings initially, though of course I am still interested in what the triad stuff produces. I will be sure to share what I find though, especially any cool sounding stuff, which I guess is the practical object of it all. What was your cool mistake and new inversion by the way? I'm curious!

  13. #37

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    I think there's a tendency to overlook triads because there's not as interesting a sound when we're learning chords, or we think of them as limiting. Since a big part of why this approach is different is to hear the voices horizontally, the triads do this really nicely with less juggling.
    Voice leading triads are also really nice to play over a bass note accompaniment. When you're in a part of a tune where there's a chord and a pedal, maybe like the bridge of Funny Valentine, try cycle 2 triads 1 per beat. Try this with a tonic pedal. Does this offer any ideas?
    David

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I think there's a tendency to overlook triads because there's not as interesting a sound when we're learning chords, or we think of them as limiting. Since a big part of why this approach is different is to hear the voices horizontally, the triads do this really nicely with less juggling.
    Voice leading triads are also really nice to play over a bass note accompaniment. When you're in a part of a tune where there's a chord and a pedal, maybe like the bridge of Funny Valentine, try cycle 2 triads 1 per beat. Try this with a tonic pedal. Does this offer any ideas?
    David
    Yes, and cheers for the ideas, and I certainly accept all that you say about triads - I'll have to get on to this stuff! I do agree also that triads are unfairly overlooked a lot of the time (I have books that state that jazz harmony starts with 7th chords or words to that effect) and I have been guilty of this myself. But I just thought maybe it would be good to have some the team working in different areas, and for some reason I'm interested to know what sort of sounds/voicings/progressions 7th chords, or maybe add 9 type chords, might produce with Mick Goodrick's ideas. Do you think we might be better off all focusing on triads to start with?

  15. #39

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    Explore! Explore! Explore! By all means. The 4 part chords are perfect because we do use them so much. I suggested the triads because it's a good foundation to this way of thinking that we could all have the commonality of working on together. But as we begin to explore, I figure that people will start saying "I stumbled across this amazing sound with harmonic minor cycle 6! Let's all take a look." or something like that.
    Some observations I've come across from the voice leading:
    - I don't think of the chords so much as "chords" anymore but as ways that voices move together, kind of like watching a group of geese flying, it's not so much different formations at different times but one group shifting in different locations. In this way triads are a smaller flock. I start to see harmony in a different way, and my ear also learns to hear harmony better.
    Anybody out there work with Bach Chorales? Those that I've known that have, ALL see harmony different from the way jazzers and guitarists specifically tend to.
    - The cycles are not designed to include extended harmony per se, or not in the volume we're working in. There seems to be a good reason for this: it makes the travel from essential chord tone movement clear and smooth. I'd like to see how others begin to alter the individual voices to include other harmonies.
    - There is more in these books than we can possibly cover in this format, but once we all understand the approach, we can pool our discoveries and, like you, do our own thing. It's nice, though, to be able to have common material so we can better compare our own notes.
    - There are very different ways we can use this to actually apply to standards or tunes, to write into compositions, etc. I can already see it involves rethinking of the way I see my relationship to chord symbols.
    - If your world consists strictly of reading a chord symbol, rooting the chord in the bass voice 5th or 6th string, and playing a chord you're comfortable with with variation maybe until the next symbol, then you might just find the Goodchord studies opaque, indecipherable and unrelatibly "un-jazzy."
    Any thoughts, answers or questions out there?
    David

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    It just played around with cycle 3 triads progression, and looking at the stepwise voice movement, it seems that there's a "formula" repeating:

    Code:
    -1  -1   0 ...
    -1   0  -1 ...
     0  -1  -1 ...
    Where:
    -1=diatonic movement downward
    0 = no movement

    is this true for all the cycles?
    If yes, can someone post these "formulas"? I't should be quite simple to generate the data with a spreadsheet...
    In a couple of hours I went to a sample page (that should be attached to this message.. hopefully).
    Having the cycles formula it shouldn't take too much time to generate all the other ones...


    As it turns out, there is a specific formula for every cycle. You have pointed out a shifting intervallic pattern, but it is also useful to note how the pattern can be reduced to a single line if you think about chord tones (i.e. in cycle two the fifth of one chord will always move down a tone to the third of the next chord, the third down a tone to the root, and the root down a third to the fifth. Since the chords keep shifting inversions, the strictly intervallic pattern keeps cycling on the strings).

    One of the ways that this is represented in the almanacs is with circles. The most abstract representation is found in the third volume where all possible voice leading circles are represented. This is done by using letters rather than numbers, it is up to us to fill in the letters with whatever functions we want. It turns out there are only 6. A related philosophy involving "seeds" can be found in Jon Damian's book.

    I've attempted to show this on an old blog entry which includes a study on All the Things. What I find most beautiful about this approach is that you can unlock through brute computation or what I like to think of as thoroughly algorithmic exploration really unintuitive possibilities which turn out to be quite beautiful. It's like in the world of chess, where computers have now discovered through the statistical analysis of millions of moves per second moves which humans would never have thought of, and the analysis of these moves has changed the face of modern chess strategy. I believe that to unlock a similar musical development requires turning off the ear and pushing forward with the mind, and then letting the ear hear and become accustomed to what it would never have heard naturally since we're talking about sounds which have basically never been made before, or at the very least the thrusting of preexisting harmonic structures into such a novel context that they seem to be entirely refreshed. The ideas of process music and of electronic textural exploration have been around for a long time, but I think the explicit harnessing and evolving of those ideas to form a powerful new practice method utilizing these almanac reference books to help evolve jazz theory is the big conclusion to be drawn from Mick's writings. Pretty exciting!

    As far as the triads go, the first 8 bars are a good example of how you could unlock them, using open triads based off the thirds as chord substitutions.

    Musical Experience: More Things On All The Things
    Last edited by jcaplan; 07-04-2011 at 12:07 PM.

  17. #41

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    Exactly! I never in a million years would have thought of a progression through a cycle as a canon, but there it is! And when you insert a cycle as a substitute for an existing passage in a song, and you can solo canonically, it can be pretty stunning.
    David

  18. #42

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    Meggy,

    Root note-----C---E---G
    C--------------1---3---5
    A-------------b3---5---b7
    F--------------5---7----9
    D-------------b7--9----11
    B-------------b9--11--b13
    G--------------1---3---5 (5th in bass)
    G--------------4--6----1 (also)
    E--------------1---3---5 (3rd in bass)
    E------------b13--1---#9 (also)

    F#------------b5--b7---b9 (from G Major, E Harmonic Minor)
    Bb------------9--#11---13 (from F Major, G Melodic Minor)
    Ab------------3--#5-----7 (from C Harmonic Major)
    Db------------7--b3-----b5 (from F Harmonic Minor and Major)

    Less usable in my opinion

    D#---------bb7--b9-----b4 (from E Harmonic Minor)

    Triads are versatile.

    First I learnt triads in triadic contexts. Then I focused on 7th chords and extensions and alterations. Later I became re-interested in triads and also intervals to get at the basic anatomical building blocks of harmony.

    I think you should follow your interests as you see fit but it will probably lead you back to triads at some point.

    Best,
    Bako

  19. #43

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    As far as the triads go, the first 8 bars are a good example of how you could unlock them, using open triads based off the thirds as chord substitutions.

    Musical Experience: More Things On All The Things
    Jcaplan, I was at the site. Is it just a lesson type environment? Or is there more to it?


  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcaplan
    As it turns out, there is a specific formula for every cycle.
    Here what I found:
    the numbers down here are the amount of diatonic steps the voice moves passing from one chord of the cycle to the next.
    Triad voices here are stacked vertically, and here are represented the first threee steps of every cycle.
    After that, the pattern repeats again and again.

    You find the complete developement of the cycle in the first row of every Chord Cycles Diagram, where notes are indicated as scale degree instead of actual notes...


    CYCLE 2
    Code:
    (5th)   -1  -1  -2
    (3rd)   -1  -2  -1
    (Root)  -2  -1  -1
    CYCLE 3
    Code:
    (5th)    0  -1   0
    (3rd)    0   0  -1
    (Root)  -1   0   0
    CYCLE 4
    Code:
    (5th)    1   1   0
    (3rd)    1   0   1
    (Root)   0   1   1
    CYCLE 5
    Code:
    (5th)    0  -1  -1
    (3rd)   -1   0  -1
    (Root)  -1  -1   0
    CYCLE 6
    Code:
    (5th)    1   0   0
    (3rd)    0   1   0
    (Root)   0   0   1
    CYCLE 7
    Code:
    (5th)    2   1   1
    (3rd)    1   2   1
    (Root)   1   1   2
    ... I hope it's not too cumbersome.
    In this kind of stuff the risk is that math overwhelms art...

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meggy
    Cheers Bill, I guess I will get started with something before long. So far there has been quite a lot talked about triads - not something I've gone into in great detail before, I tend to take 7th chords as a starting point. So I'm thinking maybe I'll look at 4 note voicings initially, though of course I am still interested in what the triad stuff produces. I will be sure to share what I find though, especially any cool sounding stuff, which I guess is the practical object of it all. What was your cool mistake and new inversion by the way? I'm curious!
    I haven't used it in anything yet, and maybe only new to me!
    A on 1st string
    E on 2nd
    D on 3rd
    Bb on 4th

    We'd all recognize it as a rootless C13 when played E Bb D A on the 2nd fret.

    I'm going to stick with quartal, I did a lot with the basic triads years ago. Should maybe go back but when I laid off guitar quartal is what I was studying and I love that sound, didn't realize how often I gravitated towards 4ths and 2nds either.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    In this kind of stuff the risk is that math overwhelms art...
    It's because of that risk that so many have not explored it, I suspect. It's a dense and powerful tool, and if you come out with a creative application, it is a thing of beauty.

    As far as some ways to use this, I'm sure everyone has noted that a tune like All The Things You Are is a nice example of a tune that uses cycle 4 a lot. So you might take cycle 4 and voice lead the comping chords on beat 1 and get a feeling for how harmony and melody might flow in a familiar tune. But did anyone notice that cycle 6 has the cycle 4 chords every other chord? That means you can comp on half notes, voice lead and on beat 1 you have the right chord. Or how about cycle 7, 4 chords on the quarter note and your cycle 4 chord on beat 1 of the next measure.
    Any other things people have come across?
    David

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    Here what I found:
    the numbers down here are the amount of diatonic steps the voice moves passing from one chord of the cycle to the next.
    Triad voices here are stacked vertically, and here are represented the first threee steps of every cycle.
    After that, the pattern repeats again and again.

    You find the complete developement of the cycle in the first row of every Chord Cycles Diagram, where notes are indicated as scale degree instead of actual notes...


    CYCLE 2
    Code:
    (5th)   -1  -1  -2
    (3rd)   -1  -2  -1
    (Root)  -2  -1  -1
    CYCLE 3
    Code:
    (5th)    0  -1   0
    (3rd)    0   0  -1
    (Root)  -1   0   0
    CYCLE 4
    Code:
    (5th)    1   1   0
    (3rd)    1   0   1
    (Root)   0   1   1
    CYCLE 5
    Code:
    (5th)    0  -1  -1
    (3rd)   -1   0  -1
    (Root)  -1  -1   0
    CYCLE 6
    Code:
    (5th)    1   0   0
    (3rd)    0   1   0
    (Root)   0   0   1
    CYCLE 7
    Code:
    (5th)    2   1   1
    (3rd)    1   2   1
    (Root)   1   1   2
    ... I hope it's not too cumbersome.
    In this kind of stuff the risk is that math overwhelms art...
    Or simply put for the non-math inclined:
    Cycle 2 3 and 5 descend
    Cycle 4 6 and 7 ascend
    of course this is with the proper voice leading.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billnc
    Or simply put for the non-math inclined:
    Cycle 2 3 and 5 descend
    Cycle 4 6 and 7 ascend
    of course this is with the proper voice leading.
    right

    and looking at the formulas, maybe cycle 3 and 6 are the easiest to remember, or to start studying, as the have only one voice moving at a time...

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billnc
    Or simply put for the non-math inclined:
    Cycle 2 3 and 5 descend
    Cycle 4 6 and 7 ascend
    of course this is with the proper voice leading.

    other "features" i found peculiar in Cycle 3 and 6

    - They are the same cycle in opposite directions, one ascending and one descending. Same for cycles 4 & 5, and 2 & 7...

    - One voice only of the triad is diatonically moving from chord to chord, but this "locks" the direction on the neck.
    In both cycles, to invert the position shift direction maintaining the chord cycle, you have to move 2 diatonic steps for all the voices, and "magically" you find yourself at another cycle position, from which you can then continue moving one voice only ...
    Mastering this mechanism allows to play the cycle progression in any neck position at any time...

    (hopefully there will be some similar mechanism for the other cycles too, but yet I'm busy with these...)

  26. #50

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    Here is what I am doing.
    Writing out progressions. There will be 7 chords, with the three inversions of each for a total of 28 chords in the cycle (using 4 note chords). 7 chords is basically one trip up the neck, so I will write the exercises as whole notes with 7 measures to the line. So cycle 2 will be up the neck, reverse the process for cycle 7.

    Every day something new comes up, some grip, new idea for uses for old grips etc.

    So my practice for all of this each day is
    each chord in the key regarded individually up and down the neck, root position and it's inversions.

    The cycle I am working on that day, pausing of course for difficult changes and working them out.

    I have worked out cycle 2 and 7, four note chords, quartal harmony string groups 1 2 3 and 4. Major scale.