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Nice!! I'm working with trying to acquire a feel for root movement inside of a cycle progression. I figure if I know where and how the root moves, knowing the chord grouping will assure my fingers fall into place easier. That's the idea anyway. I'm finding that horizontal awareness is coming on its own, slowly.
I also find switching string groups still somewhat disconcerting.
As far as putting this in a tune, the lateral root movement is opening up options every day.
David
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07-06-2011 11:04 AM
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This is why I do the exercise of each chord and it's inversions first. There is also a symmetry between what inversion follows another in a cycle. This should aid in improvisation and arranging.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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When I broke these things out 20 years ago I used these systems, 7th degree chords, Triads over diatonic 2, Triads over diatonic 4th, and 4 note quartal chords and tetra chords. I think this covered all the 4 note possibilities.
The 'natural' movement for 7th degree chords is cycle 4 and 5
for quartal harmony cycle 2 and 7
for tetra chords cycle 3 and 6
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Well... I found a few errors in the harmonic major and harmonic minor diagrams I published earlier in this thread, So I removed the documents...
(there were some double flat, instead of single flat, in some place. Guilty the auto-complete function of the spreadsheet!)
I'm working on a new version of the document... if anyone interested...
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interested Originally Posted by e_del
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That sounds intriguing. What albums of Mr. Goodrick's should I check out to hear more about these innovative harmonic devices? Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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free downloads here. Really great band. John Lockwood is an amazing accompanist...as is Mr. Goodchord! Originally Posted by Hernandinho
Last edited by JakeAcci; 07-12-2011 at 01:08 PM.
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Sorry, I don't see the "here" link Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Jesus I'm sorry, must be the heat. This has been happening a lot. Originally Posted by Hernandinho
Sorry, I don't see the "here" link
HERE IS THE LINK: Casa Valdez Studios: Jimmy Mosher- A True Voice
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Thanks Jake. Wow! Lots of great music there, I'm listening to the first couple pieces now... Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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My favorite is Mick's solo on the blues, I forget which head they use. What he does with the time makes for a very exciting experience. It's a shame more players don't harness the power of that kind of syncopation, rather than just burning 8ths. Originally Posted by Hernandinho
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I have the Advancing Guitarist and the Almanac. I think the Advancing Guitarist is a much more practical book, while the Almanac is an exhaustive document of voice leading information that would take years to get through. I went through a good chunk of it, but other than helping me learn my inversions of voicings all over the neck of the guitar it wasn't groundbreaking for me. Not a bad book, but I think for the amount of time spent learning it I could have learned many more approaches concerning different areas of my playing. I also had a lab with Mick last semester. Interesting little fellow he is...
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Did you get the impression he worked very quickly, finding nuggets and working them out into songs? Even he said this was a mountain! Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
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I can speak for myself, that the Almanac(s) are meant as a reference guide, and not something that one ever expects to know from reading them. I will say, however, that the process of regularly working with the material begins to change an awareness from vertical to horizontal. Now when I solo, it's a lot more chordal and the lines flow a lot easier without being obvious to the changes. I can "feel" my way into voices better.
If you wonder if he himself knows all that's in the books? Not as a player, no. He's staked out the corners that he likes, worked with them until they gave up "music" and then leaves it to others to do the same.
In this group, I wanted to "get everyone in the car" so to speak, and start driving with each person telling things they see out their window. At some point some of us will take a turn off and if our spirit is a sharing one, report back on some sounds.
Mostly it's just sitting on the egg until it hatches.
It's kind of the ultimate guide to working inside the harmony. The next book is stuff outside. Once that is allowed, there's a lot of places to go.
David
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If my post sounded hostile towards Mick's Almanac series I didn't mean for it to sound that way at all. By all means it is an incredible feat of musical knowledge to come up with all those voice leading techniques and it is a great resource, but I prefer the Advancing Guitarist because I feel it gives me simple ideas and food for thought to create my own musical methods. Although, after reading this thread I am tempted to dig out the ol' Almanac and dive back into it again Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Haha, yes I did! Originally Posted by Billnc
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See, I was going to a Pat Martino 40 hour course, literally on the drive up Pat got sick again (he was not back, in fact this was before the ill fated 'Return' record was recorded) Mick took over the course and refunds were offered. I stuck it out, good decision. Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
Pat and Mick are VERY different, I've met both. They seem to agree on this one crucial point. There are searchers and finders. You can't search endlessly (well you can but that's NOT the point) You have to find the nuggets that resound in you, work them out and move on. Find something else. I worked diligently for five years on the Advancing guitarist, and what I got from Mick at the course. You can lose sleep, there are days you go to bed and wake up in the middle of the night thinking "this works!" Go to the studio and flesh it out.
I attended the course with my brother, all these years later he loves Mick the best as a teacher, because Mick teaches one how to think for themselves. The downside is you do waste a bit of time when you are discovering nothing, but even in these times you are learning to think.
I'm still sorting through quartal again, but what I see as the next step (I don't know if Mick went there) is cycles through the various 'systems' i.e. alternating quartal, tertian and triads over bass notes with good voice leading. It never ends!
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Yah. A long time ago I was equal parts 1)awe for players I loved, 2)dismay over how much there was to learn and 3)despondent over how little time it seemed I had in my life to learn it all. Originally Posted by Billnc
Quite honestly, I thought of all the people who's music I wanted to know and what if I spent years learning one way of playing so I could do it well and it wasn't right for me. I found Mick after a set one evening and at one point I expressed my fears of floundering, not having a voice, not knowing if my direction was the right one, wasting my time.
He told me "Flounder! You should flounder. You don't always know where you're going but if you're aware, everything you learn along the way will be a part of who you will become." It gave me the encouragement to explore and I'm sure it's a big part of my needing to do things my own way.
David
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I have all three Mr Goodchord books and the Rhythm books, as well. It's great stuff, I especially love the third book because it mainly deals with clusters which you can use perfectly in modal music.
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Could someone also start making a brief list of pieces containing the various cycles, in all or part of them?
Like for example "all the things", first 5 chords of each progression...
Cycle 4 :
Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 (Ab maj scale)
Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 (Eb maj scale)
has anyone other examples?
this could also be a way to learn playing them in different keys on the fly (didn't anyone meet e.g. a singer, saying "let's play it in Gb" ? )
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I agree that the Advancing Guitarist is certainly a more practical book, but I'd be surprised if Mr. Goodchord would even attempt to say otherwise - it's just a very different type of publication, plain and simple. Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
I don't own the almanac, but my understanding is that it's not at all intended to be a "how to" guide for comping or voicings, but rather presenting a relatively unique approach to searching for new sounds on the guitar.
It's not in a completely different world than Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - no where approaching 'essential reading' for a jazz guitarist, but at a certain point if the player is so inclined he or she could glean a lot of insight from the book.
I actually might say that the Advancing Guitarist really is essential reading for a jazz guitarist today - not necessarily to do the whole thing as a workbook (that could take a lifetime) but rather to see the approaches laid out and use them to help inform one's decisions and attitudes towards playing and practicing.
Like I said earlier in this thread, the almanac (and the contents of this thread itself) is something I'd like to dig into at some point in my life, but currently I'm working on things that are pretty separate from voice leading, so putting much attention towards this type of material would be a distraction for me. I do look forward to the time when more advanced voice leading becomes more of a priority in my study.
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On the fly? How 'bout flying to the moon? Originally Posted by e_del
Could someone also start making a brief list of pieces containing the various cycles, in all or part of them?
Like for example "all the things", first 5 chords of each progression...
Cycle 4 :
Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 (Ab maj scale)
Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 (Eb maj scale)
has anyone other examples?
this could also be a way to learn playing them in different keys on the fly (didn't anyone meet e.g. a singer, saying "let's play it in Gb" ? )
Fly Me To The Moon VI II V7 I
Autumn Leaves II V I IV VII (V7 of V in the III position) VI etc.
Both of those are cycle 4.
You can look at There Will Never Be Another You as following a largely cycle 7 progression with secondary dominants in there.
I'm also thinking that for each voicing group, there will be one most efficient solution for any given cycle, so even if a piece goes from one interval to another, you can still find a good voice led choice. You can of course work this out on paper by looking at the path of least leap-age but getting to know the feel and sound of these cycles should allow you to voice lead naturally by feel and sound.
Hope that's helpful.
David
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I wouldn't worry about digging into the 1st Almanac book, it's pretty basic voice leading compared to the later books in the series. Interesting thing is that when I had class with Mick Goodrick last semester, he never even bothered to bring up the methods in his Almanac, even though that is his most well known body of work. I feel like the Thesaurus is a little more open ended and harmonically rich compared to the Almanac. At least, for my personal preferences, I gleaned more useful information out of the Thesaurus. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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You get my point though, right? That it doesn't really make sense to compare the almanac to the advancing guitarist? Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
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Yes I get your point, but I don't mean to necessarily compare the two. I just noticed that both books were brought up on this thread and thought that the Advancing Guitarist was somewhat more practical for your average jazz guitarist. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Definitely agree. Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
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Yeah, well that was years ago now that he'd written it. Did he get into modal compression with you? That's the big thing now, and a couple of years from now he'll assimilate it and probably not mention that. "That's your job" is probably what he'd say. That's exactly what he said to me when I suggested some more instructional way to reach more people with this material. Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
I'm glad this group is picking through the material. So much of what we "learn" only comes to life when we live with it long enough to have a revelation with it.
David
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You have to be a self starter with Mick, and if you get bored with something, I THINK he would say, that's when it's time to move on. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Yeah he mentioned "modal compression," but the subject he focused on the most was interactive dovetail soloing in a duo setting. So I would learn a tune each week and have to know how to walk a bass line in low and high registers, which wasn't as challenging as I would have liked it to be. We also did a lot of playing over different types of drones and use of space (that was actually surprisingly challenging :P ) Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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cycles work is still in progress, but I came up with this brief document, that I plan to use during my holidays, next weeks.
I've done my best to debug it, but still I'm sharing it with no guarantees... if you find any error, let me know.
It's "basic", without all the permutation, voicings, etc etc, but I think has all the elements to work on. Hope you like it, and that it will be useful for you too.
positive feedback appreciated... they're pleasing
negative feedbacks even more... they let this thing improve
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Looks nice. What program did you use to make this? Originally Posted by e_del
cycles work is still in progress, but I came up with this brief document, that I plan to use during my holidays, next weeks.
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if you work only with note names (this is the case) any modern spreadsheet with the right font (and just a bit of macro programming) can do the work. Originally Posted by jsepguitar
I used LibreOffice, the free alternative to Excel...
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What is modal compression?
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I've scanned the introductory comments from the first two almanacs as well as some excerpts from vol. iii which are definitely worth reading for people who don't own them. It's a little over 30 pages of material.
I'm having trouble attaching the pdf to this post so if you're interested you can email me jonahcaplan@gmail.com.
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I ask myself the question this way. Mick publishes the Advancing Guitarist in 1987 with the attitude prevailing throughout: go figure this out, go explore, go make decisions, go discover the possibilities. Why, 20 years later, does he feel compelled to make an exhaustive list of these possibilities? What did he realize which transitioned him from writing one kind of book to writing what is basically the total opposite kind of book? How do they complement each other? Maybe the most interesting question having compiled these lists is, what still isn't there?Last edited by jcaplan; 07-15-2011 at 04:58 PM.
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Maybe he has received complaints about his book, lacking explanations or something. I still see some parts of the book as criptic, but sometimes you understand what he's trying to say (maybe too late because you already learn that in some other place).
Maybe he didn't want to try to tell anybody what's right or wrong.
P.S. email sent!
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Different sides of the same person. Both, or all of his works are very personal explorations of someone who opens doors, then passes through them looking for new doors to open. In the transition from Advancing to Almanac, this is very much in evidence. The entire world of the Almanac comes out of pg.74 of the Advancing. When he began to really explore these note combinations (chord voicings) he saw mathematical patterns revealing themselves, and repeating melodic germs interwoven in counterpoint. The Almanac is merely an offering to the curious of an exhaustive collection of findings. Originally Posted by jcaplan
If you may, it's like an explorer in early 1400's Europe says "I have geometric proof that the world is round. You can go any direction and find new worlds if you take these navigational tools with you." Fast forward 20 years and he comes back with a chest full of maps. He says "These are the maps of a place to the north east of here. There's plenty more, and this will not tell you about the plants, animals or weather there, you will have to take some maps and create your own country." So it seems the opposite, but it's really just another door in different form.
He did publish a volume of factorial rhythms too, ways of looking at rhythmic groupings so you could explore phrasing in a permutable way. That one he did in 1 volume.
The modal compression begins to explore alternative harmonies that don't fit into the diatonic harmonic framework.
I don't think the almanac is to be taken at face value, something to be attacked in any particular order. It's a way for a person, or a group to discover a way of hearing, and find the pages they like enough to put into your own sound.
But that's just me. I might be way off base. And I'll find something there too.
David
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I like that answer quite a bit David! I had this breakthrough moment once listening to Lenny Breau play all the things. He came in with what sounded like the most beautiful chord I'd ever heard and I was itching to find out what it was and the answer predictably was... not very much. a root, seventh and third. But there's this sensitivity to space in the way the chords are voiced and connect with each other that is created by the subtraction of notes rather than addition. I find that fascinating and it's those sounds that I'm most motivated to explore personally (1 2 5, 1 5 7, 3 5 7, 1 4 5) Does that make me a botanist or a geologist or an ornithologist or dendrologist? I've lately been trying to comp entire choruses on tunes using only one kind of voicing as an exercise, maybe two or three inversions per chord where possible. But the spacing I'm achieving I owe directly to my work with the almanacs. It just never would have otherwise occurred to me.
I think the less metaphorical way of putting your point is that we're provided with a means to achieve a much higher degree of precision and specialization, of sensitivity and aural awareness, than would otherwise be possible without these references.
Also, could you be more specific about the modal compression? How is it different from playing outside or using whole tone or diminished scales and chords? I've never heard that term before.Last edited by jcaplan; 07-16-2011 at 01:58 AM.
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I second that. Also what is dovetail soloing?Also, could you be more specific about the modal compression? How is it different from playing outside or using whole tone or diminished scales and chords? I've never heard that term before.
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There's a new book coming out very soon co-authored by Mick and Tim Miller. It's their work on a non diatonic system called Modal Compression. Since it's about to be published, might I ask that we give the publisher the right to release this material, and then start a separate thread on it? Originally Posted by jcaplan
Anybody else is free to discuss or share what they've gotten so far of course, I just think Berklee Press might look favouribly on their author's material not appearing prominently in an online forum before it's available in stores.
In the meanwhile...
Maybe this is off the original thread topic but very much along these lines though, and that's the topic of hybrid chord progression. This is a method of grouping chords, not by how they fit into the existing harmony of a piece, but by the tension they convey while converging on a particular chord, or point in a piece.
It's a way of playing, arranging, chord soloing given to me by Jack Pezanelli (an amazing player, teacher, chord soloist- plays a duo with Sheryl Bailey and was Kurt Rosenwinkel's teacher for 3 semesters.) He formulated this with some acoustical analysts at MIT. I happen to be working on it a lot this summer and if there are those out there who are looking for new sounds and ways of structuring "outside" chords (of which modal compression will fall) ,maybe we could turn these ideas loose. Everytime I hear Jack play these, or I use them, people always say "Hold it! What did you just do there?" Any takers?
David
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yes Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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well, first of all the method.. just works! :-)
I think that it relies on the bass/triad fixed ratio,that gives the "flavour", and the top note melody that "guides" the ear, overriding all the harmonic incongruences (melody wins!)...
I'm not that good at playing these things on the fly, but I used it to arrange a few bars of a song, to make an intro, and it worked perfectly.
It's kind of constant structure motion... maybe just better
And I never applied that while soloing.
My opininon (VERY low profile...) is that this thing works when used sparsely, to create unusual tension, but cannot be used e.g. for arranging a whole piece.
My experience is that when you introduce fixed structures in music (like wholetone scale, or diminished scale, or constant structures, or these fixed-ratio harmonizations), you "blur" the harmony a bit in an interesting way, but the risk is that after a while all songs will sound the same...
But when i heard it for the first time i was KO for a week!
Another interesting point is also that it works for MAJOR triads... I didn't understand if Jack hadn't time to explore other triads qualities, or if more simply tis method doesn't work for minor triads.
After all Root, third and fifth are also the first harmonics you encounter, and the strongest... maybe this could be the (unwritten) explaination...
I'm going to stay away from keyboard for some days now... when I'm back I'll look for a little PDF I wrote (I'm better on computers than on guitar)... if it will pop out in my hard disk, I'll post it.
But in the meanwhile, if you will, have a look at Pezanelli's masterclasses... they really are worth their price...
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Love this thread.
Is there anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area that would be interested in working on this stuff together. If so, send me a PM.
Also, if anyone is interested in selling any volumes of the Voice-Leading Almanac's, I am interested.
Steve
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Dovetail soloing is Mick's term for an interactive guitar duo exercise. Basically one guitar walks a bass line while the other solos, but each person may switch parts at any point in the tune if that is what is musically communicated. It creates this nice weaving effect if done properly. What is tricky is that you have to know how to walk a bass line in the low and high registers at any point in the tune. So for example I may be soloing in a high register but then start transitioning into a walking bass line. To do it smoothly I have to start walking in the high register that I am already in because the other player will be in the low/mid register at that point. From there I can ease my way into the lower register if the other player decides to start soloing higher up. It's almost like doing a musical dance on the guitar, you have to lead/follow. Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Thanx Grey! I really appreciate that in depth answer. Great idea! Wish I had someone to practice it with.
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That's exactly why. The system is based on creating harmonic (in the physics definition) conflict with the overtones. When you start with the natural harmonic series, it will reveal the elements of the major scale: Try it, the harmonics in the string give you octaves, fifths and then down the neck you'll get your third. The minor triad is a derivation of the constructed major scale, but it's not in the natural harmonic series as we can hear it. Think of it this way, you want to make a new beverage (maybe someone gave you 12 teabags they got from their travels) and you want to be able to put them in some order of mild to bitter on in your cabinet. Start with clear pure water with no introduced flavour- H2O. There's your major triad. Each note introduced will have an effect on this stable structure. If you put it on a scope, you'd see a progression from a pretty close approximation of the harmonic series to a wave signature that has "noise" throughout the spectrum. We love the purity of simplicity, it's what the ear wants to return to. These hybrids give you 12 varieties of tea, and in the end, you decide whether you want to enjoy the journey from bitter to pleasing. Originally Posted by e_del
So here are the hybrid structures:
Most stable- least disturbance- to most tension. I put them in numericals cause that's how I study them. All triads are Major. Use any inversion/voicing of the triad.
(these are so redundant, I don't use them myself)
Triad/1
Triad/5
Triad/3
(these I tend to study within groups of 3, mild, medium and high tension. It just makes it easier for me to assimilate the sounds and chord shapes to)
Triad/4
Triad/6
Triad/2
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Triad/-3
Triad/b7
Triad/b6
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Triad/#7
Triad/b2
Triad/#4
Now do NOT look at these as functional chords. Don't think "oh that's a rootless -7#9" or anything like that. They are little episodes of tension in themselves. Jack looks at it like "dialing in a tension" and he numbers each one, so he says "I'll go from a #3, to a #7 and then #11.
I'll take a voicing, move it down the neck in whole steps and increase the tension as I go. At some point I can find a dominant 7th chord that can be stepped into and that will resolve me back to the tonality of the piece. That's just how I'm using them.
Sometimes I'll keep the whole step movement but switch the triad form to a different inversion. That switches up the sound but the tension quality is still there.
Let's experiment, ask questions, offer advice and see what this toy can turn into. We can discuss putting these in a tune at some point.
Have fun
David
a little note-when we start to get into spread voicings, or even some of these, fingerstyle is really useful. If you're a strum through player, you'll need to skip strings at some point.Last edited by TH; 07-17-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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That's a fundamental point! Originally Posted by TruthHertz
But anyway, from a pure fingering point of view, I cannot avoid to look at some of the hybrids as well-known chord shapes... my fault
Speaking with your notation:
Triad/1 - Triad/5 - Triad/3 = major triad with its 3 different notes in the bass
Triad/6 = regular min7/maj6 chord shape
Triad/2 = sus chord shape (e.g. Bb/C at 6th fret)
Triad/b7 = dominant chord with 7 in the bass
Triad/b6 = maj7#5 chord shape
Triad/#7 = regular maj chord with 7 in the bass
Interesting the fact that in these Hybrids you find maj7, min7 and dominant shapes (with different dissonance degree)... this could help getting into the system by tring to harmonize a melody by moving usual chord shapes, but with different criteria.
Don't think to the function but ony to the sound of the chord while using it to play the melody with its top note...
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In book I on the 7 note scale level, Mick presents two 4 note triad/bass structures that he voice leads through the cycles in six voicing types.
TBN #1------1 5 7 9
TBN #2------1 7 9 11
TBN stands for triad over bass note.
In inversion the bass note becomes another chord tone.
G/C in drop 2 becomes
C G B D
D B C G
G C D B
B D G C
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Hey guys, I've been glancing over this thread and due to my ignorance, I don't get it, especially the el del charts. However, this might be a shot in the dark, but this concept might similiar to Coltrane's approach to single line soloing. I read in an interview, that sometimes he would use triads to create melodic lines via harmony. For instance, if the chord was a C7, he would use a C7 triad, then Eb7, E7, and finish on a F major triad, all this over the C7. This is probably not what you guys are talking about, but it's worth a try eh?
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I've been working on something that is definitely the product of a long time spent with the almanacs.
Video, sheet music and explanation can be found at jonahcaplan.blogspot.com
The tune is Very Early. I think it shows how to embellish through passing tones and fingerpicking the kind of lovely shapes the almanacs can help us discover to create intricate textures out of basic structures and larger intervals. I'd love some feedback.
Jonah
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This thread is very nice. When you first get the MG voices moving on the fretboard it come to mind the Pavanas of Luis Milan, the Fantasias of Francesco da Milano and the explicit geometry pervading the music of J.S. Bach.
See for example how Bach dealt with issues related with moving patterns (the cool crab canon over a Möbius strip!):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x82...ab-canon_music
Thanks for the nice ongoing work in this threadLast edited by palz; 09-17-2011 at 12:31 AM.
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Hi Jonah, very nice piece. The start & ending remind of a piece of F. Hand (You can find it in one of F. Noad's books). It falls well in the fretboard and reads fluent. I guess that measures 18 to 24 could make some use of some support, possibly in the lower register to open up the sound a bit if the piece is intended to be played at a slower tempo. Congratulations. Have you seen Leo Brower studies? He gets juicy patterns and uses cool devices on them. Originally Posted by jcaplan
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