Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 17 of 17 FirstFirst ... 7151617
Posts 801 to 850 of 850
  1. #801

    User Info Menu

    Hey Group,
    Someone here emailed me the other day with a question about Mick's etude book, and I lost the message! Whoever wrote, please re-send and I'll reply! Thanks!
    Marc

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #802

    User Info Menu

    One of the things I like doing (with Vol 1) is: playing two- or three-voice versions of the 7th chord cycles, and then applying them to a tune. For fun, I wrote out two choruses of "All the things .." using two different, two-voice cycles. In real-life, especially when playing with a pianist or other guitarist, this may be all you need to play when comping! [Of course, I just wrote this in whole- and half-notes, and not actual "comping rhythms," so please do your own variations!] See what you think!

    ATTYA - Goodrick 2-voice.pdf

  4. #803

    User Info Menu

    And a three-voice version:

    ATTYA - Goodrick 3-voice.pdf

  5. #804

    User Info Menu

    I would like to work with the dominant diminished scale, half step/whole step diminished, in a systematic way, similar to Goodricks cycles, but I haven't been able to work out how to do it.

    Does anyone have any advice? How do you harmonize the dominant diminished scale?

    bengt

  6. #805

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by thule View Post
    I would like to work with the dominant diminished scale, half step/whole step diminished, in a systematic way, similar to Goodricks cycles, but I haven't been able to work out how to do it.

    Does anyone have any advice? How do you harmonize the dominant diminished scale?

    bengt
    Because the 7 note scales become easy to work with after a while, and the logic Mick lays out is using 7 note scales, I've worked a bit with 7 note variations of the diminished scale. But I haven't sat down to figure out the voice leading systems with an 8 note scale.

    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-untitled-jpg

    Just curious, for what purpose?

    Edit: excuse the "6" vs double flatted seventh in the chart; this is part of a larger scale list with some automatic enharmonics.

  7. #806

    User Info Menu

    Oh woops, thanks Mick for pointing out - these are for the 'other' version - one can just swap the chart up to actually be for a dominant as was specified (Eg , 1 2 b3 becomes b9 #9 (major)3) just a little 'find and replace'



    wouldn't be shocked if there's a typo or two in this one: Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-untitled-2-jpg
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 10-27-2020 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #807

    User Info Menu

    While I'm taking up space, I'm going to mention that I made a tool that basically produces all notes and possible guitar voicings for cycle material, with a fairly exhaustive set of options, and the user just has to click through a few drop-down menus to select the options they like. Quick demo video here



    Aside from the center area where the user selects options, the vertical columns are for each chord, and there are many guitar voicings options for each chord present by scrolling down beyond what's visible in the video. A lot of time and energy was put into making the voicing rows connect in a player-friendly logic. Meaning, you can select a key, cycle, voicing structure, chord type, scale type, and then the tool produces some options of the most practical ways to play the chords of that cycle on guitar, and you can sit and play them through instantly. Alternate tuning options are there and they are easy, no 7 string options at this time.

    I'll admit that's nowhere near a complete description of the organization and the purpose of the damn thing, and it may be confusing to look at at first. But with a little walk through it's easy to use.

    Posting it here because I'm curious if this is interesting to anybody - I'd think for those working on cycles that it would be appealing and practical to be able to save the administrative steps of writing down the notes and finding voicings when working with the the activities that require maximum brainpower (for example, a more complex combination of parameters like scale type, chord type, etc. The tricky first step is just writing down the damn notes.) This was an obsessive project back in July or so, I think I posted it then and to be honest was surprised that it sparked absolutely zero discussion except for one PM from a user here that I've known for a long time. Not that I'm sensitive, hah!

    I've been pondering plans for polishing it up and sharing it.

  9. #808

    User Info Menu

    Symmetrical scales yield symmetrical results. Not as varied as the standard 7 note scale harmonizations but does offer some interesting chord pairs that articulate diminished scale harmonic function in a perhaps less obvious presentation.

    C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

    Alternating minor chords and 1st inversion majors

    C Eb G
    C# E A
    Eb Gb Bb
    E G C
    F# A C#
    G Bb Eb
    A C E
    Bb Db Gb

    Alternating major chords with 2nd inversion minor chords

    C E G
    C# F# A
    Eb G Bb
    E A C
    Gb Bb Db
    G C Eb
    A C# E
    Bb Eb Gb

    etc.

    Non-symmetrical 8 note scales provide a richer palette, especially when engaging with structures that Barry Harris describes as containing "borrowed notes".


    C D E F G Ab A B C

    C E G B
    D F Ab C
    E G A D
    F Ab B E
    G A C F
    Ab B D G
    A C E G#
    B D F A

    C E G# B
    D F A C
    E G B D
    F Ab C E
    G A D F
    Ab B E G
    A C F G#
    B D G A

    etc.

    Jake,

    I suspect you know this, but for anyone who hasn't checked out 7 of 8 extracts of diminished scales. Although each variation on your list has slightly different notes, there are only two unique intervallic structures to be found.

  10. #809

    User Info Menu

    I've been curious for a while about six note 'gapped modes' where a note is omitted and the creative palette is slightly reduced – it's great to see a discussion of this idea applied to the diminished scale. The diminished whole-tone scale is already shown in the Almanacs as mode seven of the Melodic Minor sections, but Jake's idea about dropping a note started to sound good quite quickly - naming notes and chords takes a bit of thought, with the augmented second interval causing similar convolutions to what it does in the Harmonic Minor scale. I came up with this last night from Jake's 'Dominant Diminished (1) omit b9' (C D# E F# G A Bb C):

    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-7-note-gapped-jpg

    All the best
    Mick W
    Last edited by Mick Wright; 11-12-2020 at 07:00 AM.

  11. #810

    User Info Menu

    Cool Mick

    since I input these as variants of the WH dim scale, i input that example as the G WH excluding the b5, that way cycle 4 looks basically the same as if it were starting on C HW omit b9 . (but adding a scale is easy, and there's a 'custom scale' option anyway)

    Some misc results...interesting sounds (and let's see if these images format properly)

    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-1-jpg
    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-2-jpg

  12. #811
    I've been working on some fun things involving chromatic movement in voice led cycles.
    The cycles in the almanacs all involve diatonic smooth movement from chord tone to chord tone. I was thinking of just how much I like the "wrongness" and "edge" that chromatic approach notes can impart and how they really highlight the quality of the target chord when it arrives.
    My practice time now includes inner voice movement at the time. If one of the inner voices (alto or tenor in SATB talk) is a 5th, and the tendency of the cycle is descending, I'll sharp the 5th and it becomes a chromatic approach note in contrary motion. Likewise if the tendency of the voice movement is ascending, the 5th is flatted and yes, it's wrong at that moment, but in the voice movement of the voice flow, it's like a little white water that makes the flow exciting.
    The 5th is nice to work with because aside from the -7b5, it's a stable voice that is not a guide tone and it's got a chromatic note above and below it.
    I have been working on some aspect of the Almanacs during this entire pandemic and I'll say at this point the greatest changes in my playing are not the patterns within the pages of the books, but the expansion of perception they have allowed me to achieve. Hearing any voice within the tonal area and within the chord at the same time. That's a big one that leads to chord movement that's melodic and freshly functional.
    For those who've been using the cycles, check out chromatic altering. If the cycle descends, raising the root in an inner voice also makes one of those "What's THAT?" chords that resolves or evaporates into the next chord.
    Let me know if you find this to be true.

  13. #812
    Here's another "Of course!" approach that now seems obvious.
    Four part 7ths can be led through cycles, that's obvious. But a more dramatic accentuation of voice movement, particularly in the middle voices can be achieved through playing a four part chord as a triad, only voicing BTS or BAS alternatively.
    When you do this, the voice travels from voice to voice, and it's not diffused through the movement of each 4 part chord. In other words, the melodic line travels from voice to voice, like a melody being passed from one instrument to another in a string quartet or symphonic work.
    The B and S voice still outline the chordal movement but the inner voices can act either in concert or counter to those voices by changing the voicing of the triad. You still use the chords of your fretting hand as you would, but you only pick out one of the inner voices. This, of course is easier when you play finger style, and if you're playing finger or classical style, you can bring out the inner voices through dynamics to give a greater clarity to the moving inner voice. Add to that the chromatic alteration in the above posting and your chordal work takes on a sophistication that was only thought a piano could achieve.
    Have fun.

  14. #813

    User Info Menu

    I'm just delving into the surface of vol 3, it's great fun, with lots of exciting ideas. I'm glad I didn't look at it and concentrated on vol 2 for many years. Vol 3 is a new adventure, at least for me.

  15. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    I'm just delving into the surface of vol 3, it's great fun, with lots of exciting ideas. I'm glad I didn't look at it and concentrated on vol 2 for many years. Vol 3 is a new adventure, at least for me.
    Got to admit, V3 seemed like the outer limits of possibilities, and it scared me clear for a long time. Now that V2 gave me a self determined and self realized guide to finding the unexpected, V3 makes so much sense and truly is turning out to be the "Now that I've got your attention" capstone of the series.
    There was a conversation I had with Mick during the lock down. I asked him how he saw his own philosophy diverging from the Berklee framework he coexisted with for so long. He began by asking me "have you read the introductions? A lot of people just jump into the pages but I explain it in the introductions. You shouldn't need to ask me this." This is typical Mick: He assumed what he knows is apparent to everyone.
    In short, he was and had been frustrated by the study of 4 part harmony, specifically that so much emphasis has been put on harmony built on THIRDS. Tertiary harmony. "Three and four part chords can be built on thirds of course, but assumptions, especially in the guitar world, that that is the only way to see music really limits the sound of music as we know it. You can group three or four note chords in ways that are not explored traditionally. Fourths of course, but on a piano you can play three note chords in clusters, or groups of notes, some closer than the third some more spread out, and they don't always fall into ways that adhere to the rules we give to traditional tertiary harmony. On a guitar, you can voice these clusters or groupings closed, but you're set by the way the instrument is layed out. Spread clusters offer the solution. All these note groupings have ways they can be voice led, or given applications inside our own (modal or scale based) harmony.
    For the adventurous composer, player or sound explorer, this is all seen as untapped territory. It's all there in the Almanacs. Only a handful of people are using this knowledge creatively."
    There are ways of seeing note movement that are seen by only a few, mostly composers, pianists and Ben Monder. But V3 is the volume that says "For those that have REALLY worked with V1 and 2, you must be finding things nobody else could have explained, and you probably have questions. So there it is. Some ideas for players who spend enough time on their instruments to acquire a hunger for options in harmony and sound.
    Fair warning: If you derive most of your knowledge from the (valid) wisdom gleaned from a lot of transcription, and you feel your time is most productive exploring the canon in that way, there is a lot here that might be seen as a waste of time.
    If you're a restless sonic explorer who asks questions like What and What If, then you may still be wasting your time, but there are many things you will encounter and if it resonates with you, it's your job to make it relevant and beautiful.
    It's an amazing instrument, the guitar. Here you have an unusual engine with untested possibilities.

  16. #815

    User Info Menu

    Great post !

    Goodrick’s book (w/CD) he published with Tim Miller ‘Creative Chordal Harmony for Guitar’ might be a welcome introduction for anyone getting into Vol 1-3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note View Post
    If you're a restless sonic explorer who asks questions like What and What If, then you may still be wasting your time, but there are many things you will encounter and if it resonates with you, it's your job to make it relevant and beautiful.
    It's an amazing instrument, the guitar. Here you have an unusual engine with untested possibilities.

  17. #816
    Hey let's do something interesting on this thread. Let's talk soloing philosophy, and the way we see applied harmony. It's relevant, it's personal and it definitely speaks to why and how one would use alternative approaches to changes of a piece.
    I think people who have been using this for a little while may have seen new ways of seeing the fingerboard, and maybe this is a way for some of us to introduce ourselves to one another as a community of harmonic interpreters. Anybody up for a discussion?

    I'm throwing this out there because I've started to look at Christmas carols.
    I love the Christmas season because it offers a chance to play things everyone knows, these are REAL standards, and the harmonic forms are so simple and essential that they don't need a page of changes, and there's such a rich opportunity to embellish harmony and everyone knows the song so if you're crafty enough to bring the harmonic flow of some chords to a convergence that's strong, everyone can appreciate the form of the song, and the ear of the listener is there with you.

    Anyone up for bringing this material to life for these days of diminishing light and searching for goodwill and goodchord?

  18. #817

    User Info Menu

    I am still bringing up the rear on this project. I decided I needed to do some remedial work on inversions and it has helped quite a bit.
    I am working on the suggestion to commit one cycle/voicing to memory - cycle 6 drop-2-3. It's easier for me to start with because only 1 voice moves.

    I have dabbled with book 2 to get a little variety in my practicing but I have decided to focus on book 1 mostly for now.

    I like working on cycles in different keys where some things work better for me in different areas of the neck. If I stick to one key I tend to gloss over voicings that are awkward in certain parts of the neck.

  19. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    I am still bringing up the rear on this project. I decided I needed to do some remedial work on inversions and it has helped quite a bit.
    I am working on the suggestion to commit one cycle/voicing to memory - cycle 6 drop-2-3. It's easier for me to start with because only 1 voice moves.

    I have dabbled with book 2 to get a little variety in my practicing but I have decided to focus on book 1 mostly for now.

    I like working on cycles in different keys where some things work better for me in different areas of the neck. If I stick to one key I tend to gloss over voicings that are awkward in certain parts of the neck.
    Yeah, once you internalize the chord group and the inversions, this is really useful knowledge no matter if you voice lead or not, so it's time well spent, learn them as they're different depending on what string group you're using.
    Then this is what I found was really helpful: Look to the functional voice leading graphic. It'll tell you which voice will lead you into the next chord's root. For example in cycle 4, the fifth of the present chord will go down one scale step to the root of the next chord. What ever SABT or position that voice is in, that's the inversion you will use in your following chord. So you see, it trains you to hear the chord you're playing, the voice within, the position of the next chord as your ear guides you to the hand position you need. This is the way I see/hear it and it reduces the thought process from 4 individual juggling voices to one guide voice taking you to the next chord that you know the grab for.
    Running a cycle is more than just voice leading 4 voices, it's seeing how chords that belong together will talk with one another.
    Practicing this stuff is as much a matter of practicing perception as it is anything else.
    Good luck

  20. #819

    User Info Menu

    Can anyone recommend some tunes that make extensive (whatever that means) use of diatonic Harmonic minor chords?
    This is cycle related for me at least.

  21. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    Can anyone recommend some tunes that make extensive (whatever that means) use of diatonic Harmonic minor chords?
    This is cycle related for me at least.
    Every time someone starts working with Harmonic Minor cycles, the reaction is the same. Bach! This is SO Bach chorales!
    This is a very short segment of a harmonic minor cycle in triads one iteration of 4 inversions


    A little while ago I was at a Ben Monder gig. He'd written a bunch of new tunes and afterwords he asked me "Did you hear that tune I based on Mick's cycles?" Ha, my mind was still on the floor from everything he'd played so I can't say I caught it.
    It's not a sound we normally hear, but the 7th chords within it, and the cycles that imply and lead to them are particularly useful as dominants that lead to minor chords. That's when I find them the most useful, as a basis for 7th chords with b9s and b13s.

  22. #821

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    Can anyone recommend some tunes that make extensive (whatever that means) use of diatonic Harmonic minor chords?
    This is cycle related for me at least.
    Hi JohnoL,
    The main section of Dizzy's 'Be-Bop' comes to mind. Harmonic minor and jazz is an excellent point of discussion. I've seen little that goes into much detail about it in the literature, but I'll be reading Dan Greenblatt's 'Minor is Major' (excerpts are on the shermusic website) in January - it looks promising and it may answer your question. Anyone on here read this yet, please?
    All the best, MW

  23. #822

    User Info Menu

    Bach etc didn’t have a concept of theoretical root. It was all contrapuntally conceived; intervals above a bass and so on.

    The cycle thing is really an artefact of thinking about theoretical root. And it does require a lot of thinking at first...

    Books like Sanguinetti’s Art of Partimento detail some authentic 18th century beautiful voice leading/counterpoint patterns, some of which end up being similar or identical to some of the Goodrick things but conceived in a different way.

    BTW I’m slowly writing out these examples in more guitar friendly forms; as Sanguinetti’s book is geared around keyboard, but the Italian school unlike the later German school tended to teach in three voices which makes it practicable for the guitar. Also - lots of tenths which is always great for guitar. I’ll post these on the forum when I’m ready.

    Instead of inversions of the triad and seventh chords, 6 3, 6 4, 6 5, 6 4 2 and so on are all handled separately, which might seem cumbersome; but as Peter Bernstein points out not all inversions sound equal.

    So for example, a backcycling progression would not be too dissimilar from that in jazz - with a bass moving in fourths we could understand it as a sequence of 7th chords in ascending fourths with the top voice using stepwise suspensions for voice leading.

    However if the bass is descending stepwise (Cm7 F7/C Bbmaj7 etc), we think of it differently - as series of 7 5 3 to 6 4 3 suspensions on a descending bass (the numbers refer to diatonic intervals above the bass.) this might seem cumbersome, but actually increasingly to me I prefer to think contrapuntally than in terms of chords.

    ‘Harmony is a fairy tale told about counterpoint’ as the saying goes

    I’m gradually falling out with the concept of theoretical root, so I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t potential for a sort of jazz thorough bass; an interval/contrapuntal approach to jazz harmony which dispenses with the need for theoretical root and the primacy of the chord symbol with all its limitations?

    (Wasn’t that what Ted Greene and Goodrick were moving towards in their own way?)

    Aside from obvious precedents such as the Barry Harris scales, Monk, Jobim and some of the bass line oriented harmony in more traditional standards changes (the GASB composers were often classically trained of course) it’s already possible to see figured bass style concepts applied in the music of Metheny and Kenny Wheeler for instance. Much contemporary composition uses stepwise bass movement to contextualise less conventional functional harmony.... in some ways I see the post-functional revolution on jazz as a revolt against fourthwise bass lol.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 06:01 AM.

  24. #823

    User Info Menu

    One difference with the Goodrick examples is that classical harmony, like bebop lines, freely moves between all three versions of the minor depending on melodic considerations. Classical harmony is seldom entirely diatonic to a given mode, major or minor. The way it was taught in the 18th century, some chromatic chords such as II7 or bVI7 in minor are just naturally part of the key...

    Here are two basic harmonisations of a descending Aeolian bass using 18th century harmonisation schema:

    Login • Instagram
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 06:14 AM.

  25. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    Can anyone recommend some tunes that make extensive (whatever that means) use of diatonic Harmonic minor chords?
    This is cycle related for me at least.
    I think I'll spend some time today exploring this piece, which outwardly anyway, has elements of that scale inclusive. If I can apply a convincing cycles exploration to the form that's given, all the better. Let's see what I find.
    It's a tune I haven't really explored myself, but hey, it asks a relevant existential question appropriate to the times so why not?
    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-screen-shot-2020-12-19-6-39-56-am-png

    At least the A section has a nod to the HM scale in the melody, and though the harmony is somewhat static minor in nature with a line cliche running through it, it might be interesting to see what happens when the piece is treated in tonal centres and extended at least in parts, through cycles.
    Fun exercise anyway.
    David

  26. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Bach etc didn’t have a concept of theoretical root. It was all contrapuntally conceived; intervals above a bass and so on.

    The cycle thing is really an artefact of thinking about theoretical root. And it does require a lot of thinking at first...

    .... in some ways I see the post-functional revolution on jazz as a revolt against fourthwise bass lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    One difference with the Goodrick examples is that classical harmony, like bebop lines, freely moves between all three versions of the minor depending on melodic considerations. Classical harmony is seldom entirely diatonic to a given mode, major or minor. The way it was taught in the 18th century, some chromatic chords such as II7 or bVI7 in minor are just naturally part of the key...
    Interesting points. The materials in the Almanacs are more closely akin and perhaps functionally appropriate to post Debussy than they are to Bach compositionally, but as far as voice movement, and elegance and efficiency of CT and step-wise voice movement, they do have similar goals in mind: the movement of harmony with melodic (avoidance of wide leaps) movement in the individual voices. Yes of course the cycles are not built on the considerations given to a choral composition, the rules and parameters of movement are those that were codified and in use for that purpose.
    Bach and the fleshing out of classic voice movement (Almanacs) came to a similar sound because they are both had a similar noteset and rules of movement.
    Function dictates form. I was in the AMNH (Museum of Natural History in NY) and I was looking at the Icthyosaurs, fish that evolved an uncanny shape to modern day porpoises. How can such different animals from such disparate points in a long time line become so uncannily similar? They had something deeper and greater that shaped the form.
    And when I said there was something Bach-ish about the harmonic minor cycles, I didn't actually mean that you could read the almanac as you would the Chorales of Bach and assign them BWVs as a successor to that canon, (see that? I'm so clever) I meant hey look it's a fish that looks like an aquatic mammal.
    Bottom line is the Almanac is a finitely exhaustive fleshing out of voice movements through all intervallic diatonic root movements assembled through all 3 and 4 note permutations for any composer, literate or real time, to reference. At its best, whether you through compose or whether you dovetail the cyclical or scale functional movement with a piece, there is now a reference guide that can show you a perspective and possibility that might prove useful in your personal goal. Given time, a jelly fish may evolve to need the environmental factours, to fill the niche of apex predators. Maybe they'll develop the use of song. Who knows, it won't be Bach but it may have similar manifestations of the forms.
    David

  27. #826

    User Info Menu

    I don't feel I have an in depth enough understanding of impressionist harmony to comment on how any of this relates. I don't honestly think I have a strong enough grounding in that music to understand on a concrete level how those composers relate to the harmony of Bill Evans say, but that would be something I'd love to dig into one day when I have a bit more time.

    But what I would say is that it seems Debussy had a massive grounding in this type of 18th century figured bass stuff from the Paris Conservatoire (as noted in Gjerdingen's new book) - as for that matter did many of the greats of US music (including some jazzers) via Nadia Boulanger.

    I would also say that practice of moving an structure through a fixed harmonic or melodic minor scale seems like a very specifically jazz way to look at harmony. It's obviously useful to us to have a cycle that goes through melodic minor or whatever because we have all sorts of ways to apply that to different chords. The chord scale thing seems a very jazz concept for example... it seems obvious why; CST suits the needs of jazz musicians who might want to play interesting colours on individual pre agreed basic chords; but that's not the process historically that classical composers and improvisers would have used (probably more so today.)

    Anyway, that's all a MAHOOOSIVE side bar, and sorry for the derail...

    The only relevant point I was trying to make is that it might be easier in some ways to view things like the Almanac cycles as intervallic combinations on bass rather than inverted chords. The question I'm starting to ask is; is it necessary to know what chords are in terms of theoretical root, or are we more interested in intervals moving through a given scale or tonality? I think the latter seems the important thing to me. I'm not sure naming this or that triad or seventh chord has a function beyond being able to realise chord charts at the basic level.

    So, you can take any given Almanac cycle and write it as intervals on a bass, figured bass style. The notes you could end up playing would be unchanged, but the conceptualisation would be different. And yes some of the patterns would show up in classical pieces and these old harmony treatises...

    There's also the and separate issue of aesthetics; and the obvious point that it's not parallel evolution, but rather, well, direct evolution as many jazz musicians are at least familiar with Bach, and many with other classical composers too. In any case, I would expect the majority of jazz musicians to be familiar with how that music sounds, and often be pretty intimately familiar with at least few pieces. This is not a new thing of course; we can trace it back to the riverboats...

    Even in quite a dry book like the Almanac which aims to be systematic, it's quite clear there's an aesthetic element and at least some of what we think of as beautiful harmony comes from that world; one makes those associations.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 08:46 PM.

  28. #827

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note View Post
    Bach and the fleshing out of classic voice movement (Almanacs) came to a similar sound because they are both had a similar noteset and rules of movement.
    Function dictates form. I was in the AMNH (Museum of Natural History in NY) and I was looking at the Icthyosaurs, fish that evolved an uncanny shape to modern day porpoises. How can such different animals from such disparate points in a long time line become so uncannily similar? They had something deeper and greater that shaped the form.
    Parallel evolution is crazy. Forget ichthyosaurs; it's when I found out a whole separate class of whales now extinct had evolved to basically be dolphins a few million years back, but weren't the TRUE dolphins we know today that my head imploded.

    Or all the the things that evolved into the body plan of crabs that aren't actually crabs.

  29. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I don't feel I have an in depth enough understanding of impressionist harmony to comment on how any of this relates. I don't honestly think I have a strong enough grounding in that music to understand on a concrete level how those composers relate to the harmony of Bill Evans say, but that would be something I'd love to dig into one day when I have a bit more time.
    .
    Every composer in the Western tradition up 'til Debussy wrote, as we'd say now, in a horizontal interactive voice way. We're so used to being aware of vertical harmony that we take that for granted, especially in the jazz tradition. It's really kind of mind blowing to realize that Debussey was the first to think of shifting chords juxtaposed to create a composition that way but yes he was the first to see things that way. His fascination with "chord progression" led him to create works that defied the functional models and this "impressionism" and the language is what Bill Evans was so deeply rooted in.
    David

  30. #829

    User Info Menu

    Yeah I feel I honestly lack knowledge of that music in a nuts and bolts way to have a (relatively) informed take on it with respect to jazz. I understand it from a music history 101 point of view.

    I’m also interested in composers like Faure and Saint-Saens who represent a transition to my ears. And for that matter there’s Wagner of course.

    Debussy has been influential on jazz since the early days though. And a two way relationship with his successors and younger contemporaries Ravel, Milhaud, Poulenc etc.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-20-2020 at 08:09 AM.

  31. #830

    User Info Menu

    Excellent job - looks very polished with clear interface and easy to use!

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    While I'm taking up space, I'm going to mention that I made a tool that basically produces all notes and possible guitar voicings for cycle material, with a fairly exhaustive set of options, and the user just has to click through a few drop-down menus to select the options they like. Quick demo video here



    Aside from the center area where the user selects options, the vertical columns are for each chord, and there are many guitar voicings options for each chord present by scrolling down beyond what's visible in the video. A lot of time and energy was put into making the voicing rows connect in a player-friendly logic. Meaning, you can select a key, cycle, voicing structure, chord type, scale type, and then the tool produces some options of the most practical ways to play the chords of that cycle on guitar, and you can sit and play them through instantly. Alternate tuning options are there and they are easy, no 7 string options at this time.

    I'll admit that's nowhere near a complete description of the organization and the purpose of the damn thing, and it may be confusing to look at at first. But with a little walk through it's easy to use.

    Posting it here because I'm curious if this is interesting to anybody - I'd think for those working on cycles that it would be appealing and practical to be able to save the administrative steps of writing down the notes and finding voicings when working with the the activities that require maximum brainpower (for example, a more complex combination of parameters like scale type, chord type, etc. The tricky first step is just writing down the damn notes.) This was an obsessive project back in July or so, I think I posted it then and to be honest was surprised that it sparked absolutely zero discussion except for one PM from a user here that I've known for a long time. Not that I'm sensitive, hah!

    I've been pondering plans for polishing it up and sharing it.

  32. #831

    User Info Menu

    Hey everybody,

    I started with the triads three day´s ago. At first I thought I need help to find ways to work with them. But like a magic trick the way of building the triads makes more sense then any voiceing or chordype I ever learned. Since yesterday I´m working on some standards and it´s not allways easy in time, but it works pretty well.

    Since I just have a copy of the first book, I´m interested to get the others. Also other books of Mr Goodrick, since his stuff is really amazing. Have the books been republished in anyway?
    That´s how I got here. But you guys have much discusion going on. Really interesting stuff, but much to read... I´m happy to read, learn and maybe share my thoughts.

    Jonas

  33. #832

    User Info Menu

    I bought “The Advancing Guitarist” when it came out and worked on its concepts over the years, especially playing up and down the neck on one or two strings. It’s the kind of book that appeals to me, more concepts than content.

    Though I knew about the Mr. Goodchord books, they went out print before I got my hands on one.

    Oddly, the person who introduced Volume 1 to me - primarily as a compositional resource - was pianist Russ Ferrante. I worked through some of the first triad sequences and ended up writing a couple of pieces based on the voice leading.

    I could also see how the books could be a resource for a different approach to comping than playing and connecting “grips”. More independent voices rather than vertical blocks of harmony.

    I think because Mick is a guitarist we think the Mr. Goodchord books are “guitar books” but I think they are more encyclopedias of general voice leading concepts that could be applied to composition and arranging, along with chordal and improvisational applications on the guitar.

    You can get some interesting single lines going if you break each “chord” into arpeggios and connect the sequences by the moving voice(s).

    It’s a rich resource, but not a progressive method.
    Last edited by BickertRules; 01-15-2021 at 12:27 PM.

  34. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas S. View Post
    Hey everybody,

    I started with the triads three day´s ago. At first I thought I need help to find ways to work with them. But like a magic trick the way of building the triads makes more sense then any voiceing or chordype I ever learned. Since yesterday I´m working on some standards and it´s not allways easy in time, but it works pretty well.

    Since I just have a copy of the first book, I´m interested to get the others. Also other books of Mr Goodrick, since his stuff is really amazing. Have the books been republished in anyway?
    That´s how I got here. But you guys have much discusion going on. Really interesting stuff, but much to read... I´m happy to read, learn and maybe share my thoughts.

    Jonas
    Welcome Jonas!
    I (we) welcome your fresh perspective and new ideas. I always like the "new discoverers" because everyone has such a different take on just what these mean, and what they can do, it's the newbies who often have revelations I'd never even thought of.
    Triads are a great way to go. Y'know guitarists in general so often neglect the potential of spread triads. There is so often a profoundly rich colouration that comes from introducing a 4th voice into a spread triad that changes the entire character of a chord, but in the flow of the cyclic voice leading maintains the integrity of the line(s).
    Another thing I am loving with the work I've been doing (mostly chord melody) is the way the ascending seconds actually go DOWN, and descending stepwise root motion goes UP. A great way to really keep the sounds fresh in comparison to the way most people treat those chords.
    Also in static or chords where the harmonic convergence of the turnaround in a tonal area is a few bars away, cycle 6 and cycle 3 are really cool depending on whether you want to travel up or down the neck. When it's time to "rejoin" the written piece, a turnaround or 7th chord is always in the neighborhood, so to speak. The interim travel is really interesting and ads texture and an element of the unexpected to any chord solo.

    I hope you continue to find the cycles engaging. I really jumped into them again at the start of the pandemic. And almost weekly, I'm having breakthroughs in my ear, fingering facility and chordal soloing facility.
    I tell Mick what I'm working on and he always responds by nodding and saying "If you want try this..." and my mind is blown. What he does bears little outward resemblance to any pages I'm working on but he assures me that it's somewhere in the forest if I stay long enough to map my way through to it.
    David

  35. #834

    User Info Menu

    Hey BickertRules,

    I have the advancing guitarist and worked with it for a while. But never fully dived into it. Had a couple of ohter issues the last years, so I mainly practiced for gigs and stuff.

    In my opinion the most important things about Micks stuff as a guitarist is that it´s opening my mind. And that´s allways my goal...

    Of course you can learn from the books in many ways (Especially from his sence of humor. ). Voiceleading is crucial in improvisation, composition, arranging....

    For me it doesn´t have to be a progressive method. It´s about how much ideas I get just from playing one cycle a couple of times.

    Jonas

  36. #835

    User Info Menu

    Hey Jimme Blue Note,

    thanks for the welcome!
    I really like two or threenote voiceings and have been working with them for years. I love this open sound. So the tirads are a real good start for me. But of course I will go on to the 7th.
    When I´m working in this way it doesen´t feels like "just" chords because I think of every movement. It´s like playing three unitars.

    At the second day of practiceing I played some cycles and took day´s of wine and roses to work with. At first in a very slow tempo to get everything right. After that I put the speed up and just played with the idea of the voice movements and some amazing stuff was hapening. Ok, not everything... But some really nice voiceings just showed up by integrating tension and let the cycles melt together with things I already know. I like to work intuitive and the apporach in the books works really well this way.

    It´s nice that you´re working with Mick. I wolud like to have a lesson or more with him. But I don´t think that I get to the states in the near future.

    Jonas

  37. #836

    User Info Menu

    Hi,

    I listened to this interview with Ben Monder last night where he spoke about practicing Goodrick's cycles. I thought it was interesting to hear that it seems to be a large part of his practice and also that he focuses on the three-part cycles.



    I have been doing the same since Jimmy Blue Note said in a post that is what he had been doing and really listening carefully to the lines changing. I can feel a difference in my ears since a few months ago, but still need more work!

    Richard

  38. #837

    User Info Menu

    What are some of the advantages of focusing on the triad cycles as opposed to the 4 part cycles?

  39. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    What are some of the advantages of focusing on the triad cycles as opposed to the 4 part cycles?
    When I began working with the Almanacs, I started with the 4 part 7ths because I felt more familiar with those chords. I kind of thought triads were "simple" and not as rich or descriptive as the 7ths I was used to working with.
    When I immersed myself in these cycles during the pandemic, I was returning to the books and in between, I had worked a lot with triads over bass notes, and non functional harmony. I was in a space where triads gave me more freedom to create an extremely articulate palette of textures with the addition of another note. So I chose to study the triads.
    I found them to be:
    Really essential aural identity. The triadic chord tones gave me a clear and always identifiable outline of what and where each note was and what the chord was collectively. The clarity of the triad really proved to be helpful in the ear-training aspect of cycle studies because it defined each voice separately (as opposed to seeing/hearing a chord as a single "grab" as there is such a preponderance of in the guitar world), and this movement is easier for me to hear in triads. For me, the conversation of 1 3 and 5 was more intimate and less ambiguous given the space they had to occupy.
    Clarity of voice movement. For me the essence of being able to navigate and voice lead on the fly, in real time improvisation, involves a knowledge of what voice leads to the next root and in which direction that root comes from. Working with the triad form, and knowing that, say, the 5th of the present chord will be my "window" to the root of the succeeding chord was much easier for me to see in triad form. I feel a lot more sure footed working with 7ths now having gotten that revelation in triads.
    Using passing tones between chords. There's more space between chord voices with triads so working with passing notes, both diatonic and chromatic, allowed me to create notes, dissonances and counter movement between the chords presented in the almanacs. This "customization" turns out to be some pretty hip movement that changes the way the cycle sounds. Triads give me a lot to work with here because their simpler identity contrasts with chromatic line and passing notes. It's easier to develop a feeling of "between the chords" tones when the target is a triad. At least for me.
    Chromatic tones below triads. We have 12 notes that are available beneath each triad. 9 if we don't want doubling. These notes profoundly change the way a triad is perceived. By experimenting with one's choices, you can essentially move "blocks" of texture by introducing a bass note to any triad. That means that during the cycles of triads, you can also change the perception of consonance and dissonance at will by using a bass note (rather than a predetermined 7th).
    Bass lines and pedal tones. Movement of the triads through a cycle can also be contrasted by a bass player running a more conventionally placed bass line beneath. This can have the feeling of very complex upper tensions being played on conventional harmonic bass notes. You can learn to play a separate bass line beneath a cycle segment and it creates an even more elusive "What IS that chord?!!" effect.
    Visualization. Seeing the movement, knowing the placement of chord fingerings on the fingerboard was easier for me, especially when crossing string sets, with triads. It was an easier "mapping" of the territory. I was more easily able to focus on coordinating my hands visually on the string and fret landscape.
    Arpeggiation. Creating lines based on triad cycles was easier for me because I could see the 7th as a plastic area to be treated melodically and something that could be altered on the way to the next chord tone. This gave me more harmonic and rhythmic freedom.

    Now all these things are just MY take on triads through working with them. I've got a lot of work to do and very likely the way I see them will change over time. That's why it's really good to have different people give their own stories from where they are on this trip.
    Don't take my response any more seriously than the evolutionary opinions and observations of an explorer.
    David

  40. #839

    User Info Menu

    Now all these things are just MY take on triads through working with them. I've got a lot of work to do and very likely the way I see them will change over time. That's why it's really good to have different people give their own stories from where they are on this trip.
    Don't take my response any more seriously than the evolutionary opinions and observations of an explorer.
    David
    Are you working with 3-part 4ths as well?

  41. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    Are you working with 3-part 4ths as well?
    Ah. Volume 2. Next on the agenda. Maybe I'll open that can of worms tonight. Can of worms it is. The non tertiary harmonic material is the entire wild forest of undiscovered animals when it comes to the chordal world.

  42. #841

    User Info Menu

    Chromatic tones below triads. We have 12 notes that are available beneath each triad. 9 if we don't want doubling. These notes profoundly change the way a triad is perceived. By experimenting with one's choices, you can essentially move "blocks" of texture by introducing a bass note to any triad. That means that during the cycles of triads, you can also change the perception of consonance and dissonance at will by using a bass note (rather than a predetermined 7th).
    Bass lines and pedal tones. Movement of the triads through a cycle can also be contrasted by a bass player running a more conventionally placed bass line beneath. This can have the feeling of very complex upper tensions being played on conventional harmonic bass notes. You can learn to play a separate bass line beneath a cycle segment and it creates an even more elusive "What IS that chord?!!" effect.

    How would you compare these concepts with the TBN1 and TBN2 voicings?

    Since with the TBN's more often than not the "bass" note is not on the bottom and the general sound hits me differently than what you're describing.
    I have not been able to reconcile these concepts and in a more simplified way slash chords with the TBN's.

  43. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    How would you compare these concepts with the TBN1 and TBN2 voicings?

    Since with the TBN's more often than not the "bass" note is not on the bottom and the general sound hits me differently than what you're describing.
    I have not been able to reconcile these concepts and in a more simplified way slash chords with the TBN's.
    Yes, a good observation. To really understand what he's referring to when he says TBN, you have to realize that's just a name for the configuration of the origin chord.
    Taken as a whole, and entirety, the three volumes of the Almanacs are a fleshing out of all three and four note permutations of non repeating intervallic harmony, voice led.
    The most obvious ones, the ones we're most familiar with through western harmony are the triads and 7th chords built on thirds. These are the most traditional and for many people the most "usable" applications that comprise volume 1.
    But Mick always saw "chords" in a broader term, one that included permutations that were not built on thirds. The most obvious alternatives are chords built on fourths, but they also include sequential notes (clusters), two sequential-space-two sequential...you get the idea. Each one of these chords has its own sounds, textures, rules of voice leading and sonic identity. Much of the time, if we do come across these, they aren't codified or they're just treated as passing chords or segments, not chords to be explored as compositional/improvisational potential.
    So Mick made an exhaustive list of the intervallic chord possibilities and he gave them descriptive names because they defied conventional functional descriptors. These "entities" could then be voice led and made into melodic lines via the MSRP and canonic cycles.
    As to how they are used functionally, that's a huge part of the individual's application. They have chordal identity that can weave in and out of conventional song form or they can be used as the basis of compositional material that can then, itself, be treated as an improvisational vehicle.
    I will say that it requires good ear training to realize the potential of this material, but working with cycles built upon "nameless harmony" is a re-calibrating of hearing.

    The treatment of triads over chromatic bass notes is not based on the disassembly of the unit structure as Mick does, but rather the more conventional voice leading triads over a superimposed bass note. The triad upper structure is an intact voice led cycle, the bass note defines the density and consonance/dissonance of the resultant unit.
    I once began a thread about this non functional triads over bass notes on this forum. That was when I was using the identity TruthHertz. That informs one use of the triad cycles.

  44. #843

    User Info Menu

    I once began a thread about this non functional triads over bass notes on this forum. That was when I was using the identity TruthHertz. That informs one use of the triad cycles.


    Is this the thread?
    New constructs in modern harmony and form



  45. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnoL View Post
    It's within there. There's a lot of it laid out in post #41

  46. #845

    User Info Menu

    Hi everybody,

    does someone begin to study the book number 3?

    because i can hardly understand the part called STUFF TO DO WITH 3-PART CHORDS(WITH PASSING TONE AND MELODIC EMBELLISHMENT)...

    i would like to know if there's someone who could help me out!!!!

  47. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88 View Post
    Hi everybody,

    does someone begin to study the book number 3?

    because i can hardly understand the part called STUFF TO DO WITH 3-PART CHORDS(WITH PASSING TONE AND MELODIC EMBELLISHMENT)...

    i would like to know if there's someone who could help me out!!!!
    Big question! Have you worked with the first two volumes any? What page(s) are you working with? What are you trying to do, musically, these days? How good is your fingerboard knowledge? How good is your ear? What are your hopes with this material?
    These may seem like unrelated or broad and general questions but they speak very specifically about how anyone might answer them. The Almanacs, and particularly the 3rd volume has many many uses implied in this material. It'd be really helpful to know a little about where you are as a player before going in depth about how to use the cycles.
    Have you played with the cycles without embellishments? What do you think of them? Which one appeals to you, maybe that'd be a good place to start.
    I've found that the benefits to me are not in playing these cycles literally, but the ear/finger/harmonic/guitar neck visualization that this immersion has forced me to confront and how it's freed me to create remarkably melodic lines in 4 voices. For me, it was essential to see the movement in essential unembellished forms first.
    You need to understand too, that by the 3rd volume, he's working with triad and 4 part forms that are NOT based on stacked thirds. There's a universe of sonic possibilities in these "unconventional" intervallic groupings and they're going to open up a whole lot of possibilities if you can hear them against and with traditional harmony (if that's your thing) but embellishments, passing tones, and melodic lines are the BRIDGE between the unusually beautiful intervals explored through the cycles, and being able to "flesh out" that "bone structure" into usable lines...even before we're talking in real time.

    But let's start by finding out about where you're coming from and take it from there.
    This will be very interesting and fun!
    David

  48. #847

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note View Post
    Big question! Have you worked with the first two volumes any? What page(s) are you working with? What are you trying to do, musically, these days? How good is your fingerboard knowledge? How good is your ear? What are your hopes with this material?
    These may seem like unrelated or broad and general questions but they speak very specifically about how anyone might answer them. The Almanacs, and particularly the 3rd volume has many many uses implied in this material. It'd be really helpful to know a little about where you are as a player before going in depth about how to use the cycles.
    Have you played with the cycles without embellishments? What do you think of them? Which one appeals to you, maybe that'd be a good place to start.
    I've found that the benefits to me are not in playing these cycles literally, but the ear/finger/harmonic/guitar neck visualization that this immersion has forced me to confront and how it's freed me to create remarkably melodic lines in 4 voices. For me, it was essential to see the movement in essential unembellished forms first.
    You need to understand too, that by the 3rd volume, he's working with triad and 4 part forms that are NOT based on stacked thirds. There's a universe of sonic possibilities in these "unconventional" intervallic groupings and they're going to open up a whole lot of possibilities if you can hear them against and with traditional harmony (if that's your thing) but embellishments, passing tones, and melodic lines are the BRIDGE between the unusually beautiful intervals explored through the cycles, and being able to "flesh out" that "bone structure" into usable lines...even before we're talking in real time.

    But let's start by finding out about where you're coming from and take it from there.
    This will be very interesting and fun!
    David
    yeah i know what you mean but i really don't understand how to play this exercise... for example what does it mean CLOSE WITH P.T.?

  49. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88 View Post
    yeah i know what you mean but i really don't understand how to play this exercise... for example what does it mean CLOSE WITH P.T.?
    What page?
    Close voiced, or an arrangement of the notes in the most compact way so there are no octave shifts, with passing tones. That's particulary appropriate in instances that use things like close clusters. Once they begin to voice lead, the intervals between note voices opens up and that's where you can have dramatic spaces between individual notes in adjacent chords. Passing notes create a scalular or melodic bridge between voice leaps. This idea can also be applied to the cycles in volume 1 and 2 too, and in that context, it starts to sound like Bach with suspensions.
    Make sense?

  50. #849

    User Info Menu

    Hi Fra88
    Good question - it looks like you're on Almanac 3 p. 14? It's a great section to work from. I've made a quick sketch of a few bars, attached. I emphasise that this is only my own reading of this chart - there will be many, many routes through these sequences since there are no time signature(s) or register(s) - and also because the notes don't need be of equal lengths. Occasionally you might have to 'sketch' or arpeggiate a particularly tricky close-voiced chord or two. My notes & tab below (using the first line from '9th to 3rd close-voiced with passing tones') is only a quick 'first thought' reply but maybe it'll get you started, for now?
    I'll attempt a more detailed reply (and fix any typos) at the weekend.

    All the best
    MickW
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Mick Wright; 02-22-2021 at 10:49 PM.

  51. #850

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Wright View Post
    Hi Fra88
    Good question - it looks like you're on Almanac 3 p. 14? It's a great section to work from. I've made a quick sketch of a few bars, attached. I emphasise that this is only my own reading of this chart - there will be many, many routes through these sequences since there are no time signature(s) or register(s) - and also because the notes don't need be of equal lengths. Occasionally you might have to 'sketch' or arpeggiate a particularly tricky close-voiced chord or two. My notes & tab below (using the first line from '9th to 3rd close-voiced with passing tones') is only a quick 'first thought' reply but maybe it'll get you started, for now?
    I'll attempt a more detailed reply (and fix any typos) at the weekend.

    All the best
    MickW
    Thank you man! now i understand better this exercise! the ideal would be to make a video on youtube if it was possible!