The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #301

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    I am curious how other Goodchord practitioners deal with:


    1. The multiple fingering options available for spread 3 note chords

    Ex. C G E

    C G X E ----- E C X G ----- G E X C

    C X G E ----- E X C G ----- G X E C

    C X G X E ----- E X C X G ----- G X E X C

    C G E ----- E C G ----- G E C

    2. Chords with too many small intervals or chords with impossible stretches.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #302

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    David, I use this material pretty much everyday in my practice routine. I am what I consider a beginner to jazz and thoughtful study. I am not in any particular rush for anything, so this type of work is completely enjoyable and sounds like music to me. The study of cycles over the last year, has really increased my ear as well as the ability to actually pick out cycle progressions in songs and relate songs to cycles.

    I basically cycle a key a week for study via the cycle of 4ths. I pick a chord cycle and the inverse cycle to work on during the day (for example cycle 3/6 up and then down). I work through different voicings (triads close/spread), drop 2, 3 etc. I use the cycle work as a templates to continue my learning and solidifying of voicings/inversions and the neck in general. As I work though a cycle, I recite the note names, and the note function as it relates to the chord (1, b3, etc) and to the key center.

    I also practice arpeggios via cycles in multiple scale fingerings as well.

    Some take aways for me

    1) Chords are not blocks, they are individual voices that can move through a progression. I did not see it that way before.
    2) The systematic study of inversions has certainly led to more effectiveness in my other musical endeavors that include two guitar players and playing in a group with the 2 female vocalists, cello, piano, bass and drums. This work has really contributed in my ability to find a space to exist in these contexts without getting in the way of others, the melody or the main focus of the song.
    3) The study of inversions in a musical context, highlight and show nuance that I was not getting while working through inversions without a musical context.
    4) There is so much more depth to the study of cycles than what is on paper, that I believe I will continue with these studies as a spring board to many things, whether it be new voicings, arpeggios, scale or I don't know what yet

    Thank you for this wonderful thread and all the amazing contributions of the posters. I look forward to the new publications and the continuation of this thread.

  4. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    I am curious how other Goodchord practitioners deal with:


    1. The multiple fingering options available for spread 3 note chords

    Ex. C G E

    C G X E ----- E C X G ----- G E X C

    C X G E ----- E X C G ----- G X E C

    C X G X E ----- E X C X G ----- G X E X C

    C G E ----- E C G ----- G E C

    2. Chords with too many small intervals or chords with impossible stretches.
    1) I actually try to work though the different options and learn them all, easier said then done. For me, learning them all will open up the instrument to me. That being said, I am certainly not there yet. I am using the cycles as systematic way to learn what my deficiencies are and how to rectify that.
    2) Chords with an impossible stretch/small intervals, I try to break them up into 2 movements, or drop a voice that may not be necessary or apply an arpeggio like approach.

  5. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by driskel
    ...or apply an arpeggio like approach.
    I've heard some horn players using this stuff in arpeggio manner and it's so musical and so beautifully unexpected that I say "What are you doing? How do you think of those things so fast?!! " and there it is-voice led cycles.
    David

  6. #305

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    Do you guys ever apply your left hand thumb under the fretboard for any voicings that are otherwise too difficult? I know that is a somewhat common technique in some styles of guitar playing (flamenco, maybe?) but not something I've dug into much. Here is a nice clip: Instagram

  7. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Do you guys ever apply your left hand thumb under the fretboard for any voicings that are otherwise too difficult?
    On cello (my other instrument), using the thumb to finger notes is a common occurrence.
    Among other benefits, it does facilitate some stretches that are otherwise not possible.

    On guitar, the angle is not as friendly for thumb use, less gravity and more pressure.
    I break it out when simultaneous sound is needed and all else is failing.
    It does have some potential that could be worth exploring.

  8. #307

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    Early morning thought:

    Take a cycle and change from one chord to the next, one note at a time.

    Ex. Cycle 2 F melodic minor (drop 2)

    FmMa7 > Gm7 > Abma7+ > Bb7 ......ect


    F C E Ab

    F C E G

    F C D G

    F Bb D G

    F Bb C G

    F Ab C G

    E Ab C G

    E Ab C F

    E Ab Bb F

    D Ab Bb F

    etc.

    In this example, I changed single notes starting with the highest going to the lowest.
    Other scenarios are of course possible.

    Here is starting with the lowest going highest.

    F C E Ab

    F Bb E Ab

    F Bb D Ab

    F Bb D G

    E Bb C G

    E Ab D G

    E Ab C G

    D Ab C G

    D Ab Bb G

    D Ab Bb F

    etc.

    The basic idea is looking at some possible transitional movements as one chord changes into the next.

  9. #308

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    nice thoughts you have!

    Through the cycles the notes move following a regular repeating pattern of diatonic steps, that translate in 1 or 2 or more semitone jumps.
    Basically your method seems to break these jumps in a serie of chromatic moves of one voice at a time, until the next cycle chord is reached...

    It's an interesting perspective, and I'll try to dig a bit into it.
    At first thought I'd say that some of these new "fill-in" chords will be some kind of "passing chords", as some dissonance will appear at some time. good for giving an idea of motion, but not to rest on it for too long...

  10. #309

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    I have been slowly working through the approach that you mentioned for the last few months.

    This feels to me like combining the Almanacs with George Van Eps which is a wonderful approach.

  11. #310

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    driskel,

    I bought a half year ago the first of the Van Eps massive books.
    Yeah, he does cover chord movements in some detail.

    I always try to be aware of possible diatonic and chromatic movements between here and the next destination.
    Brett Willmott has a section in his book on Theory and Voicings that take a structure and looks at all the permutations
    of individual voices moving chromatically in each direction. This kind of sandbox play can at times lead to discovering interesting passing chords that sound good but are not so easy to define.

    The above is a diatonic variation, finding pathways between here and there.

    Cycle 2 and 7 have 3 differential notes. Cycle 4 and 5 have 2. Cycle 3 and 6 have just 1.

  12. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    driskel,

    I bought a half year ago the first of the Van Eps massive books.
    Yeah, he does cover chord movements in some detail.

    I always try to be aware of possible diatonic and chromatic movements between here and the next destination.
    Brett Willmott has a section in his book on Theory and Voicings that take a structure and looks at all the permutations
    of individual voices moving chromatically in each direction. This kind of sandbox play can at times lead to discovering interesting passing chords that sound good but are not so easy to define.

    The above is a diatonic variation, finding pathways between here and there.

    Cycle 2 and 7 have 3 differential notes. Cycle 4 and 5 have 2. Cycle 3 and 6 have just 1.
    Thank you for the tips and the suggestions. One of the things that I try to be aware of, and try to solidify in terms of understanding with the cycles, is where is movement and where is there not. I have noticed similar observations in terms of interesting passing chords, which definition can be a bit ambiguous.

    I have both of Brett Wilmott's books. I unfortunately have not had the chance to work successfully with them yet. I am working through some books that get my rudimentary skills up a few notches (reading, music theory/harmony). It is always one step forward, two steps back, then three to the left on anything new that I try to learn But boy is it a fun ride

    Thank you for the comments.

  13. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by driskel
    One of the things that I try to be aware of, and try to solidify in terms of understanding with the cycles, is where is movement and where is there not. I have noticed similar observations in terms of interesting passing chords, which definition can be a bit ambiguous.
    This enforces my change in thoughts around chords. They are not blocks, they are individual voices, that need at times dissonance or resolution. Not just chord resolution, but individual voice resolutions.

  14. #313

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    I'd noticed that lately Mick'd been playing a lot more diad voicings in his soloing. Double stops connected by notes. I listened to these and thought "are they chords? are they lines?" the distinction between the two had been slowly becoming indistinguishable as anyone who's heard Mick's comping will know.
    And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
    I hear two note combinations used frequently by Bill Frisell. It's got a minimalist vibe but the effect of "How does he pick just those perfect two notes to describe that harmony in the great melody line?" Well that's what the new project is about.
    Some ideas to consider as the book is coming together. A little preview of things to come...
    Hey e_del, you put together those beautiful voice led sheets? Would you be able to work with us to put basically handwritten notes into a format somewhat similar to the Almanacs, with the notes and directional arrows? You can PM me if you're interested.
    David

  15. #314

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    Just to let you know that I am interested in purchasing some books.

    Currently I'm knee deep into learning a wide range of new material but I will use them some time.

  16. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I'd noticed that lately Mick'd been playing a lot more diad voicings in his soloing. Double stops connected by notes. I listened to these and thought "are they chords? are they lines?" the distinction between the two had been slowly becoming indistinguishable as anyone who's heard Mick's comping will know.
    And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
    I hear two note combinations used frequently by Bill Frisell. It's got a minimalist vibe but the effect of "How does he pick just those perfect two notes to describe that harmony in the great melody line?" Well that's what the new project is about.
    Some ideas to consider as the book is coming together. A little preview of things to come...
    Hey e_del, you put together those beautiful voice led sheets? Would you be able to work with us to put basically handwritten notes into a format somewhat similar to the Almanacs, with the notes and directional arrows? You can PM me if you're interested.
    David
    Dave, you're killing me. what Mick is doing (with your invaluable assistance putting it together) is practically a public service. my only regret is that it probably means i'm going to be spending a whole lot more money on books.

    in the vein of this thread, do you guys need help putting this material together? formatting, editing, proof-reading, things like that? if so, PM me. i'd be happy to offer my services.

  17. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I'd noticed that lately Mick'd been playing a lot more diad voicings in his soloing. Double stops connected by notes. I listened to these and thought "are they chords? are they lines?" the distinction between the two had been slowly becoming indistinguishable as anyone who's heard Mick's comping will know.
    And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
    I hear two note combinations used frequently by Bill Frisell. It's got a minimalist vibe but the effect of "How does he pick just those perfect two notes to describe that harmony in the great melody line?" Well that's what the new project is about.
    Some ideas to consider as the book is coming together. A little preview of things to come...
    Hey e_del, you put together those beautiful voice led sheets? Would you be able to work with us to put basically handwritten notes into a format somewhat similar to the Almanacs, with the notes and directional arrows? You can PM me if you're interested.
    David
    I'd love to hear Mick play Stella like this. If there is any chance of capturing a quick take, even via phone camera, I'm sure that would be appreciated by all on this thread.

    Since I am currently studying diads Mick's diad book is definitely on my list.

  18. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    And he says casually to me "I'm almost done with another book. It's on double stops" and there's a big pile of sheets, two note combinations, not chords, not single lines but as driskel points out, new ways of looking at chordal harmony as a moving flow from one resolution to another. Mick plays me Stella, done in connected double stop diads, and it's like a Bach two part invention on bebop changes.
    David, is the double stops book part of the almanac(s)/voice leading rewrite, as an addition, or is it a future book?

    As a request and a consumer, I would love these in hard print and kindle. I tend to purchase both when available. If not available, I spend a day scanning a book and uploading as a PDF for my kindle reader. So I have my resources available where ever I am. Note, I do not share these with anyone.

    Thank you.

    Michael

  19. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by driskel
    David, is the double stops book part of the almanac(s)/voice leading rewrite, as an addition, or is it a future book?
    Hi Michael They're completely new material, he's putting it together right now. He's entered a very prolific period, writing down all sorts of new ways of looking at things. Still in the compiling phase, not even a clever title yet.
    By the way he played a series of mind blowing solo, duos and trio things with guitarist Dave Tronzo today. I'm hoping this is the start of something in the future.
    David

  20. #319

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    Thanks for the update David.

  21. #320

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    hey David,

    sent you a PM and attempted to send you an email. let me know if you still need help, offer is still very much on the table.

  22. #321

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    Hi All,

    New member Ben here. What an enriching read! 12 pages of discussion with so much meat. Thanks to everyone who's posted over the past two years. I'm a newcomer to the forum, finding it while searching for a support group around Mick's work in Advancing Guitarist. So much to discuss! A few questions and observations, after plowing through that whole thread and trying to digest it all:

    - Assuming this thread is still active, I assume the current topic is to air how you're working with the cycles from the Almanac books primarily. Are there other discussions related to MG book topics people would suggest? I've been reading for 3 hours and am reading to go play.

    - David - I eagerly await your self-published venture, but hope it's ok to PM you in the meantime.

    - One reason posts here might be infrequent is that everyone is rightly taking things slowly.

    If it's still an active thread, I'll post thoughts/observations as I explore the material from this thread. One inspired day I wrote up some thoughts after spending some weeks on p. 39 of Advancing Guitarist. Mick Goodrick Triads 1 | Ben McAllister



    Thanks again,
    Ben
    listenfaster.com

  23. #322

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    Oh yeah, we're all active. As a matter of fact, tonight I'm starting a duos weekly workshop here in Boston for Tuesdays and I hope to do something on each day of the week regularly, one night may be devoted to discussing, sharing and working through things like conceiving, applying and learning the Goodchord and other related material. That stuff is not always easy to work through alone, but shared with others, a "hey listen to this. I found this cycle and I used it on All The Things here..." and likewise, we can really reveal the music potential of this stuff.
    And of course we'll post here too.

    David

  24. #323

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    Wow, been a lurker on this forum for a bit but reading this thread (I'll admit I skimmed at times) made me sign up. These books are exactly what I'm after to add to my practice routine. Look forward to hearing when they're available.
    Last edited by Playdough; 11-16-2014 at 04:41 AM.

  25. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by Playdough
    Wow, been a lurker on this forum for a bit but reading this thread (I'll admit I skimmed at times) made me sign up. These books are exactly what I'm after to add to my practice routine. Look forward to hearing when they're available.
    Welcome,

    These concepts are a wonderful additional to a practice routine. My entire thought process re: harmony has changed by using concepts presented in these books. I no longer view chords as chords, I view them as individual voices.

    One thing that I found helpful, is to write out cycle(s) and do the legwork yourself. I do this every week for a new key.

  26. #325

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    I think I've got the first volume around here somewhere (unless I lost it when I moved last Spring). I found it at Berkleebooks years ago, and worked with it a little bit. At the time, it was helpful in teaching me what to look for when moving from one chord to another (common tones, half and whole step movements, etc.)