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  1. #551

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Enrico,

    While your tool can play these notes with ease, few people can.
    These are all variants of 1,3,5,7 physically speaking.
    Some voicings are playable on some string sets, on some upper frets by some people.

    One trick that works at times is to displace the bass note down an octave

    C X X E F B is more possible to play than X X C E F B
    Of course I do not want to get into the breaking/splitting work...
    My idea is to present at least one or two (almost) playable alternatives for each voicing and variant...
    Any other configuration is possible, using the left side selector and manually setting the wanted note on the wanted string...
    A bit complicated, maybe, but that's the best compromise I found, and after all it's not that cumbersome... hopefully

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #552

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    Hello everybody,

    necessity is the mother of invention, and I'm happy to share this:

    Chord cycles for guitar online app
    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-chordcycles-png

    If you use it, PLEASE, report some feedback comment (maybe in PM or on the facebook page, to avoid cluttering this forum...)

    Beware! I still consider it "beta version" so expect some light (or not-so-light) changes in the future...
    there is no instruction manual, and I set up a facebook page in case you need support: Chord cycles for guitar | Facebook



    one side note:
    It's made with and for computer screen in mind, and I'm aware that more and more people are using tablets and cell phones, I tried repeatedly to find an easy and cheap way to build an android/iOS app, but didn't find one.
    The safest way to get this is to hire some professional firm/developer, and after that, there are annual fees to pay for inserting the app in the Play Store /Apple Store, ecc...
    My intention is not to sell the app and make money with it, but I don't want spend money just for the glory either...
    I was considering some kind of crowdfunding... but I don't know how much it would be appealing in the real world...
    What do you think?
    ... anyway, enjoy! And take the time to like and say hello on the facebook page...

    e_del

  4. #553

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    Hi, this is great - many thanks. Would it be possible to display the chord name for us beginner's, many thanks, si

  5. #554

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    Quote Originally Posted by jockster
    Hi, this is great - many thanks. Would it be possible to display the chord name for us beginner's, many thanks, si
    You're welcome.
    Actually the chord name is meaningful only for 135 triads and 1357 tetrads...
    I have to find a way to insert the chord names somewhere, in a way that's not too intrusive...

    But it's on the todo list

  6. #555

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    e_del, thank you for your time and effort on this app, looks great!

  7. #556

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    Update: just added a "flip table" button, to display the notes in the same top-down order of the fretboard ones...

    What do you think should be the default? (Leave a comment in the facebook support page, if you will...)

  8. #557

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    An update about the cycle application...
    I noticed just now that for cycles 4 and 5 only the voice pattern developes only half of the voicings, and repeats itself after the middle point...

    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-cy45-png


    weird, but seems nothing is wrong...
    But don't worry, the missing voicings can to be manually set using the dropdowns on the left of the fretboard.

  9. #558

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    Hey everybody,

    I happened to get a hold of extra copies of all three volumes with annotations that belonged to a teacher of mine. Thus, my copies are up for sale. Anybody interested? I'd love for them to sell as a set. Vol. 1 has been used a lot and thus shows signs of use. The other ones have not been taken out of the house too often. I put my name in them, but other than that, all are complete and should find a nice new home.

    the books are located in Germany and thus, a deal in the EU would be highly preferable with regards to shipping.

    Asking 150€ plus shipping, which is what I paid for the set. I do not wish go make extra oney and I'd love for these books to find a g ood new home and see daily use!

    sebastian

  10. #559

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    I'm working on the process of getting Chuck Sher publishers to republish the almanac volumes through Sher. If you've worked with the books and/or believe they've got value that would be worth Sher's efforts, feel free to contact Chuck directly at
    shermuse@sonic.net
    and voice your thoughts. He's got several people looking over the material but the testimonials of those who've actually unlocked their potential could make the difference between yea or neigh on Chuck's decision. I've always trusted and admired Sher publishing and it is my hope that he will pick these up, and they'd thereby be available indefinitely.
    Their material does take a certain inquiring mind and discipline, if only to accept a new vocabulary of voicing chords over changes. That's why personal experience can speak in a way the intimidating format alone can't.

    Thanks
    David

    Quote Originally Posted by zirenius
    Hello to all the kind people, who showed interest in my Goodchord books. Unfortunately, all volumes have been sold!
    Quote Originally Posted by zirenius

    Thank you again,
    Sebastian


    This refers to his personal copies. In Goodchord inventory, volume 2 is completely sold out. Literally a handful of 1 and 3 can be bought, then it's up to Sher or another publisher.
    Do feel free to PM me. Past PM's have somehow been purged from the inbox of my account here, so feel free to contact me anew. I apologize for any correspondance lost in that process; I wasn't even aware of it until I looked up old orders and couldn't find them.
    Volume 1
    Volume 2
    Factorial Rhythms

    Thanks

  11. #560

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    Email sent to Chuck Sher, best of luck with this project David.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I'm working on the process of getting Chuck Sher publishers to republish the almanac volumes through Sher. If you've worked with the books and/or believe they've got value that would be worth Sher's efforts, feel free to contact Chuck directly at
    shermuse@sonic.net
    and voice your thoughts.

  12. #561

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    I have also sent a note to Chuck Sher about publishing this body of work. I made the request for hard and kindle copies.

  13. #562

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    Goodchord enthusiasts, I have something to discuss with you. I'm trying to present this material to Chuck Sher publishers and I've run into some interesting issues.
    For long, we've recognized the potential in this material, everything from re-envisioning the way we choose chords to the re-hearing the way we get from chord A to chord B.
    Up until now, it's been a task that is the realm of the inquiring mind and the unique player that has been up for the challenge of connecting sound and linear movement in what can only be called a "reframing of harmony". That's what the almanacs do for me anyway.

    It's come to my attention that from a publisher's point of view, this gap between "Untapped harmonic/melodic material in a reference book form" and "How can I understand and use this off the bat?" is a bit of an intimidating one.

    So I'd like to get some ideas from you.
    Do you have any stories or anecdotes that show how you are breaking through this wall?
    Would you be willing to share, in video or written form how you play a cycle, and then apply it to or within a song form? (Ex: play cycle 4 melodic minor by itself ending on the V7 chord and superimpose that on the middle section of Stella...)
    Can you share some application of this material in a compositional situation?
    Are there ways you wind up combining chord family groups or cycles in ways that are not strictly "from the book"? (Ex: I regularly combine melodic minor chords with diatonic chord cycles and the mixture automatically creates "tension" and "resolution" situations from chord to chord.)
    Has the use of this material changed the way you hear? (I move internal voices a lot more now)
    Is the notational system used intimidating or even prohibiting? Would an intermediary publication of notationally more conventional examples or a "primer" on the cycles written with standard or even TAB applications ( only for one specific example to allow an easier interface) be useful?

    Any ideas would be welcome. Throw your thoughts on this thread. It may wind up being a website where your contributions are acknowledged and credited, maybe a book we all contribute to, something else. The goal is to lower the perceived "wall of impossibility or incomprehensibility" that even some seasoned players/authors have seen as an impediment to working with Goodchord material.

    Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts. Exciting times!
    David

  14. #563

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Goodchord enthusiasts, I have something to discuss with you. I'm trying to present this material to Chuck Sher publishers and I've run into some interesting issues.
    For long, we've recognized the potential in this material, everything from re-envisioning the way we choose chords to the re-hearing the way we get from chord A to chord B.
    Up until now, it's been a task that is the realm of the inquiring mind and the unique player that has been up for the challenge of connecting sound and linear movement in what can only be called a "reframing of harmony". That's what the almanacs do for me anyway.

    It's come to my attention that from a publisher's point of view, this gap between "Untapped harmonic/melodic material in a reference book form" and "How can I understand and use this off the bat?" is a bit of an intimidating one.

    So I'd like to get some ideas from you.
    Do you have any stories or anecdotes that show how you are breaking through this wall?
    Would you be willing to share, in video or written form how you play a cycle, and then apply it to or within a song form? (Ex: play cycle 4 melodic minor by itself ending on the V7 chord and superimpose that on the middle section of Stella...)
    Can you share some application of this material in a compositional situation?
    Are there ways you wind up combining chord family groups or cycles in ways that are not strictly "from the book"? (Ex: I regularly combine melodic minor chords with diatonic chord cycles and the mixture automatically creates "tension" and "resolution" situations from chord to chord.)
    Has the use of this material changed the way you hear? (I move internal voices a lot more now)
    Is the notational system used intimidating or even prohibiting? Would an intermediary publication of notationally more conventional examples or a "primer" on the cycles written with standard or even TAB applications ( only for one specific example to allow an easier interface) be useful?

    Any ideas would be welcome. Throw your thoughts on this thread. It may wind up being a website where your contributions are acknowledged and credited, maybe a book we all contribute to, something else. The goal is to lower the perceived "wall of impossibility or incomprehensibility" that even some seasoned players/authors have seen as an impediment to working with Goodchord material.

    Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts. Exciting times!
    David
    David I feel like I could say and write quite a lot answering these questions and how valuable the books have been for my playing, conception of the guitar, and teaching but honestly the labor of editing such a long stream of thoughts is intimidating and I wouldn't even know to pin point what is most essential or what the publishers would be after.

    Knowing myself, I could answer these questions via video but I'd find it difficult to keep the video both short and also pack the punch. But I would be happy to make a video going line by line from your above questionnaire, guitar in hand, with examples, and post it as an unlisted video on youtube so anybody could check it out with the link.

    Let me know if that would be useful.

  15. #564

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    also, e_del, the app is really great! I know it is not finished yet but it's very cool to be able to just plug things in like that - saves some effort for sure.

    Question, why do you have the the note names in the chords upside down?

    in standard notation and in mick's books, the chords are listed from low to high in pitch and placement on the page.

  16. #565

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    also, e_del, the app is really great! I know it is not finished yet but it's very cool to be able to just plug things in like that - saves some effort for sure.Question, why do you have the the note names in the chords upside down?in standard notation and in mick's books, the chords are listed from low to high in pitch and placement on the page.
    have you seen the latest version?

    Chord Cycles for Guitar 1.1

    It still has its flaws, but I think is usable... I'm working on a derived version less cycles-oriented, useful to display custom pre-prepared sequences, so I don't know if the current cycles app will further evolve, apart some bugfix if they happen...I develop these things when I have the burst of enthusiasm and the time to do it... (feeling guilty for not practicing ).
    I'll keep you informed.

  17. #566

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci

    Question, why do you have the the note names in the chords upside down?

    in standard notation and in mick's books, the chords are listed from low to high in pitch and placement on the page.
    I added a "flip table" button for that 'issue'.

  18. #567

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    Enrico,

    Haven't been at your page for awhile. You've done amazing work.
    It's fun to play along with the app.
    I like having a robot practice partner to work on some technical things like this.
    It never tires, never stumbles.
    I generally reserve my human contact time less ordered note sequences.
    I have wish lists (aka suggestions) but if you pay me too much mind you'll never have time to practice.

    Best,
    bako

  19. #568

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    I added a "flip table" button for that 'issue'.
    Great!

  20. #569

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    have I shared this before?

    I made this thing to randomize cycles. Just hit refresh, wait for it to load properly, and it will give you a new set of data. I believe it covers all the charts in the 3 books but let me know.

    Fun to play around with when you're just looking for something fresh, and now with Enrico's website much faster to get going with it all.

    Voice Leading almanac - random cycle - Google Sheets

  21. #570

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Enrico,
    I generally reserve my human contact time less ordered note sequences.
    I have wish lists (aka suggestions) but if you pay me too much mind you'll never have time to practice.
    This app is meant to display the ordered cycle "chords", to better show the voice movement patterns, so it's quite "linear" by design.
    Of course any C & C is more than welcome, although the software is now a bit chaotic, being the result of continuous additions and modifications (don't forget that all started from a spreadsheet).
    I'm working now on a sligthly different version, to see if I can build a more generic "fretboard display", less intricated and more customizable.
    But if your suggestions have not a heavy impact on the program structure, I'd be happy at least to try to implement them in the cycles app
    (but I'm not promising anything!)

  22. #571

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    y'all played around much with changing modes or key sig mid cycle? it can be interesting to look at a cycle as-in and adjust by half steps to suit the ear. The other day I came up with this: video : Cycle - Google Drive

    A major
    Cycle 4
    triad w 4th (easier to spell as 7th chord 1257)
    drop 2 and drop 4
    mixes between mixo, major, lydian, and Phrygian




    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-screen-shot-2017-04-03-9-55-13-am-png

  23. #572

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    Something I play around with every now and then is the interaction between scale pairs.
    I guess naming their modes is another description of the same event.
    C Ionian (C) and C Locrian (Db) have a 5 note differential.

    I would suggest for starters play the whole thing, both keys on each degree. There are numerous strategies how to mix and match, toggle back and forth between the two keys. It can be an even 1+1, 2+2 from each key or if one of the 2 best represents the harmonic area then that key can be favored 2+1, 3+1, etc.


    3 note quartal in cycle 4

    C F B --- C F Bb

    E F B --- Eb F Bb

    E A B --- Eb Ab Bb

    E A D --- Eb Ab Db

    G A D --- Gb Ab Db

    G C D --- Gb C Db

    G C F --- Gb C F
    -------
    B C F --- Bb C F

    B E F --- Bb Eb F

    B E A --- Bb Eb Ab

    D E A --- Db Eb Ab

    D G A --- Db Gb Ab

    D G C --- Db Gb C

    F G C --- F Gb C
    -------
    F B C --- F Bb C

    F B E --- F Bb Eb

    A B E --- Ab Bb Eb

    A D E --- Ab Db Eb

    A D G --- Ab Db Gb

    C D G --- C Db Gb

    C F G --- C F Gb
    --------

  24. #573

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    y'all played around much with changing modes or key sig mid cycle?


    If you change scales mid within the cycle, you can use this to introduce non diatonicism that resolves. I've just begun doing this, introduce a chord from another scale in its parallel place, like the #5 visiting from the melodic minor and then return to your cycle in the next chord. Chromatic resolution in a voice led cycle.
    If that's what you're suggesting. The more I tinker with this, and the more I assimilate, the more seems to appear that wasn't at all planned by the original design.
    It's really an imagination seed bed.
    David
    Last edited by TH; 04-03-2017 at 01:02 PM.

  25. #574

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    I just thought of another variation on this game.
    What if the keys cycled at the same time the progression cycled?

    How useful or useless is this, I don't know. I suspect it would lend some insight into modulation.

    C major cycle 2 through major keys, adding a flat to the key signature for each move.

    Cma7 Dm7 Ebma7 Fm7 Gm7b5 Ab7 Bbm7 Cbma7

    C G B E // C F A D // Bb Eb G D // Ab Eb F C // G Db F Bb // Gb C Eb Ab // F Bb Db Ab // Eb Bb Cb Gb //

    E B C G // D A C F // D G Bb Eb // C F Ab Eb // Bb F G Db // Ab Eb Gb C // Ab Db F Bb // Gb Cb Eb Bb //

    G C E B // F C D A // Eb Bb D G // Eb Ab C F // Db G Bb F // C Gb Ab Eb // Bb F Ab Db // Bb Eb Gb Cb //

    B E G C // A D F C // G D Eb Bb // F C Eb Ab // F Bb Db G // Eb Ab C Gb // Db Ab Bb F // Cb Gb Bb Eb //

    C major cycle 2 through major keys, adding a sharp to the key signature for each move.

    Cma7 D7 Em7 F#m7 G#m7 A#m7b5 Bma7 C#ma7

    C G B E // C F# A D // B E G D // A E F# C# // G# D# F# B // G# C# E A# // F# B D# A# // E# B# C# G# //

    E B C G // D A C F# // D G B E // C# F# A E // B F# G# D# // A# E G# C# // A# D# F# B // G# C# E# B# //

    G C E B // F# C D A // E B D G // E A C# F# // D# G# B F# // C# G# A# E // B F# A# D# // B# E# G# C# //

    B E G C // A D F# C // G D E B // F# C# E A // F# B D# G# // E A# C# G# // D# A# B F# // C# G# B# E# //

    The above moves through all the flat keys in sequence and then the same process for the sharp keys.

    Using chromatic cycles

    m2 and ma7 ---- 12 keys
    ma2 and m7 ---- 6 keys
    m3 and ma6 ---- 4 keys
    ma3 and m6 ---- 3 keys
    P4 and P5 ------- 12 keys
    #4 and b5 ------- 2 keys

    The enharmonic naming system presents some challenges or extra variations, depending on your perspective.

    Cycle 2 from C to Db ------ Cma7 Dbmaj7

    Cycle 2 from C to C# ------ Cma7 D#m7

  26. #575

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    Here's the update on Chuck Sher. Apparently his panel of guitar advisors, made up of authors who've written guitar books, have considered the Goodrick Almanacs to be too far out and intimidating for the mass market. We will not see a republication from Sher.

    Now I'm looking into self publication and some reformatting of the material. It's been out there for a number of years in its present and purist form. Perhaps some exploration into a new format might be appropriate.

    Any ideas about what might make these new horizons less intimidating are welcome.

    Honestly, I'm starting to think that many guitarists these days are less interested in finding new harmonies and sonic textures and more interested in learning one specific practical application albeit one laid out and quantified by someone else.
    That's partially because the guitar seems a huge learning curve from learning someone else's arrangement rote and having the ability to spontaneously know melody, harmony and the fingerboard even with just a few chord voicings.

    It may just be that voice leading harmony wasn't popular enough to survive the modern economy, as landing a man on the moon isn't feasible anymore.
    Back to exploring self publication.

    David

  27. #576
    I am not a businessman , marketing genius, or in any way a knowledgeable person with regard to publishing obviously. I just don't understand how, in the 21st-century, every out of print book is not available for digital download. Just seems like free money to me for publishers/authors. No marketing expense necessary. Virtually no production expense. Just residual income from word-of-mouth and people who know of the product from three past.

    We live in and that you're when the audio versions of music of the past or outselling current music , simply because it is technologically possible , like never before. If your costs are nearly ZERO, how is it not worth offering a product at SOME price?

    Obviously, this isn't directed at David or Mick or anyone specifically. This just defies all logic . It just feels like "Please steal my product , because that's the only way you'll ever get it. No, we refuse to take your money. ".

  28. #577

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I am not a businessman , marketing genius, or in any way a knowledgeable person with regard to publishing obviously. I just don't understand how, in the 21st-century, every out of print book is not available for digital download. Just seems like free money to me for publishers/authors. No marketing expense necessary. Virtually no production expense. Just residual income from word-of-mouth and people who know of the product from three past.

    We live in and that you're when the audio versions of music of the past or outselling current music , simply because it is technologically possible , like never before. If your costs are nearly ZERO, how is it not worth offering a product at SOME price?

    Obviously, this isn't directed at David or Mick or anyone specifically. This just defies all logic . It just feels like "Please steal my product , because that's the only way you'll ever get it. No, we refuse to take your money. ".
    I've got them in PDF form. That's our next step. I did do a survey a while back and many people said they preferred these works in full size hard copy, a good option because people tend to keep this up on their music stands and mark them up, take notes, dog ear and post-it pages. There's something tactile about making connexions within a huge reference work that allows you to "see" the totality, and the micro at the same time when using a hard copy.

    But yes, I see the medium is the message. The format is the material. I'm still trying to find the ideal approach and medium that does justice to the exploratory nature of comprehending a new harmonic and multi leveled approach.

    Honestly, I drop myself into the middle of these volumes and somehow that leads me to make parallels and connexions with other groups, other sections of the book. I do question whether that would have been possible had I not had the whole hard copy book in front of me.
    But then there's nothing stopping anyone from taking the PDF and making their own hard copies.

    David

  29. #578

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Any ideas about what might make these new horizons less intimidating are welcome.

    Honestly, I'm starting to think that many guitarists these days are less interested in finding new harmonies and sonic textures and more interested in learning one specific practical application albeit one laid out and quantified by someone else.
    In terms of making them less intimidating while still being impactful, suggest a 45 minute video exploring basic or advanced voice leading concepts directly from the almanacs and paired with a short pdf study guide of the material covered. Perhaps pitch it to mymusicmasterclass.com. Students hearing/seeing the voice leading to grasp the applicability to a musical function seems key.

    That's obviously a lot more work to take on than looking for an online publisher for 3 pdfs of an already proofread previously published book. But online niche videos seem to be where the market for jazz education is today compared to 15 years ago when the almanacs were in print, and perhaps(?) provide the video educator better royalty rates than traditional print publishers.

  30. #579

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    I don't care for the "less intimidating" approach. These things are like a rosetta stone, or like the monolith in 2010. Its suppose to inspire that kind of feeling.

    Though I do think some sort of app like e_del's is useful - though last time I checked the app seemed a little off from how I read the book.

    As far as publishing...there's print on demand and/or download distribution. A couple sites I've bought .pdf's from (like mat otto) used "ejunkie" - it can watermark each pdf with an individual's name and transaction ID - at least an attempt at DRM. Some other 3rd party distribution sites use lulu.com. I think that one can do pdf's and/or hard copies.

  31. #580

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    just some random thoughts:
    I'd definitely like having some guidance from anyone that can show the basic use of the cycles on existing material. Not necessarily a full arrangement of a tune, rather some use e.g. on the "A" section of some interesting song, or some particular cadence... give us the bricks, then we build the wall.
    And should not necessarily be about standards; I think there's a lot of new pop material that can be also worked out, that can be appealing for a broader audience.

    Also a shorter "mymusiccmasterclasses" or "mikesmasterclasses"-like video could be a good product... straight to the point, with audio, video and pdf, cheap enough to be bought in form of cycle of mini-lessons.

    ... and what about an iOS/Android companion?
    I think in this forum there is someone that deals with mobile device sw development...

  32. #581

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    Another thought - Mick's actual 'writing' in these books totals what, 20 pages for the three books? And the rest are simply the data.

    For me, ideal format is pdf explaining the concepts, then a calculator/program like e_del's to clearly lay out whichever sequences you like. I actually have been working a lot with the material lately and not actually using the books themselves, as I have notes and spreadsheets made for the "meat" of the concepts. However, as far as the guitar education industry is concerned, I am definitely an outlier.

    I think the things that can sell need to be very tangible with a very clear value proposition. Certain individuals can look at a mountain of pages and get excited by the thought of locking themselves in a closet for a few years to figure it all out...I think they are in the minority. Which is fine.

    In my teaching practice I would approach working with the books in a very "one application at a time" kind of manner, as I know very few students I'll ever have in my lifetime will be self regulating and consistent with this kind of material. I would have a student work with an extremely small amount of material and explore a very limited number of possibilities (parameters I set) and then we'd build from there based on his individual work and progress.

    To present this as a video, mike's masterclass, etc, I think it would need to have a very tangible end goal.

    For what it's worth I think the most direct application of mick's cycles are in writing and composing for the guitar, especially in a rock or singer songwriter kind of setting. It is extremely easy and intuitive to be inspired to create 'riffs' that are pretty interesting.

  33. #582

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    Hey, how about this?
    Aside from the somewhat uninteresting topic of the publication saga, which I'll keep you all informed on, I'll post a cycle, scale and voicing group on this thread.
    We then collectively look at it, record it if we'd like, post our "raw" cycle on the group and discuss the very different ways that this might be used, in composition, in use within a standard piece, as ear training, in getting to know the voicings for your own use, and what ever other things you may think of.

    I've thrown this out there before. Let's have some fun, guys.
    Who's up for a public domain exploration, a free for everyone exploration into what Goodchord REALLY means?
    Just show some interest and I'll post something.
    I'll draw from volume 1, major scale and we can suggest a voicing group.
    At that point anyone who wants to buy one, I have maybe 5 left. I'll post the cycles for everyone to share.
    David

  34. #583

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    I'm the first one to be unconsistent in studying this topic (among the other ones), but if (*IF*) there were enough people interested I'd consider opening a dedicated facebook group, or a dedicated blog, or a dedicated section in this website anyway, or anything else... so that the information is concentrated and easily searchable.
    A youtube/soundcloud channel would allow posting audio and video...

    This thread is becoming bigger and bigger.. and there are so many informations dispersed in the 23 pages (growing) that are difficult to retrieve.
    Just a thougth...

  35. #584

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    So who's up for a jump into Drop 2&4? It's a nicely spread out voicing, maybe we take a look at cycle 3 and cycle 6? Diatonic tonality.
    Speak up guys, any chord groupings you've been wanting to explore? Get you out of those drop 2 habits.

    I propose I post those cycles (or what you think would be nice) and we go at it. Then we post impressions, observations, questions, answers, examples, pieces where they might be applied, experiments with other "pages" and really look at the juice inside this fruit.

    David

    If you've got the volume 1 book, this is in the pink section of Major.

  36. #585

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    I'm all for a study group exploring this and especially the applications. I'm just not experienced enough to make these leaps myself. I see an exercise and can hear how nice it can sound as an exercise, but rarely can connect the dots to apply it to a tune I know.

  37. #586

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    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-fullsizerender-7-jpgAnybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-fullsizerender-8-jpg

  38. #587

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    OK, so let's assume you're a newbie.
    Some things you've got to know to make your time with this easier.
    You do need to know the names of the notes throughout the fingerboard and where to find them.
    You should isolate the individual voicings of drop 2&4 so you can identify them from the root.
    1 5 3 7
    3 7 5 1
    5 1 7 3
    7 3 1 5

    You should be aware of the chord qualities of the diatonic 7th chords:
    I M7
    II -7
    III -7
    IV M7
    V 7
    VI -7
    VII -7b5

    You should be able to find a chord voicing on different sets of strings.

    I've found that working on a line at a time works for me. Notice each line leads to the next, and each line begins with one inversion of the chord. By the end of the four line cycle, you've gone through all chord qualities of each chord voice led.

    Note that it takes time to assimilate this. Each person will find a different amount of time to "get it" but once done, we're all at the same level, right?

    Take notice as you're going along, that there's also melodic content on each voice. Listen for this. This "tune" is the MSRP.

    Cycle 3 and cycle 6 are the same movement, one's going one way, the other is the same thing going the other way. Cool, huh?

    In in itself, this describes the most elegant way to move up a 3rd (for cycle 3) but in cycle 3, every other chord will be your 5th and every 6 chords are cycle 4. What does this mean? That if you play 5 chords in a measure of cycle 3, per se, your next chord will be the chord up a 4th. This will become interesting after you've internalized a cycle.

    Oh did I mention that this cycle is way easier with fingerstyle players, the notes are generally grouped two adjacent strings, skip a string and two adjacent strings.
    If that's too freaky for some of you, say so, and I'll choose a tighter voicing to work with. I'm fingerstyle, I don't think about these things.

    Anybody can chime in on the "Suggestions on what you should know" section here.
    OK, let's go to it!

    David

  39. #588

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    A few suggestions:

    For someone less experienced with chord scales, let alone voice led chord scales.

    Get used to playing each drop 2&4 inversion as a parallel chord scale first on each string group.

    Ex. C G E B // D A F C // E B G D // F C A E // G D F B // A E C G // B F D A //

    Same thing starting with:

    E B G C (1st inversion)
    G C B E (2nd inversion)
    B E C G (3rd inversion)

    Then play the progressions of cycle 3 and cycle 6 on each string group in each inversion in parallel.

    Cycle 3: Cma7 Em7 G7 Bm7b5 Dm7 Fma7 Am7 Cma7

    Cycle 6: Cma7 Am7 Fma7 Dm7 Bm7b5 G7 Em7 Cma7

    For anyone:

    Play each chord pair down the page through all inversions:

    Cycle 3: Cma7 Em7 // Em7 G7 // G7 Bm7b5 // Bm7 Dm7 // D m7 Fma7 // Fma7 Am7// Am7 Cma7 //

    C G B E // D G E B // E B G C // E B G D // G C B E // G D B E // B E C G // B E D G // etc.

    Cycle 6: Cma7 Am7 // Am7 Fma7 // Fma7 Dm7 // Dm7 Bm7b5 // Bm7b5 G7 // G Em7 // Em7 Cma7 //

    C G B E // C G E A // E B G C // E A G C // G C B E // G C A E // B E C G // A E C G //etc.

  40. #589

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    Played through some cycle 2 this morning in a way that helps solidify inversion fluidity. Perhaps of interest to some.

    Idea #1 (in Drop 2):

    CGBE EBCG GCEB BEGC // CFAD DACF FCDA ADFC // BEGD DGBE EBDG GDEB // AEFC CFAE EACF FCEA // etc.

    I play 2 chords on each string group and then 2 chords on the next one (EADG > ADGB or ADGB > DGBE)

    Idea #2 (combining voicing spreads)

    CGBE CBEG CGEB // CFAD CADF CFDA // BEGD BGDE BEDG // AEFC AFCE AECF // etc.

    Played either on (EADGB or ADGBE)

  41. #590

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    With cycle2 (and its backward twin cycle 7) I used to practice playing on a chosen string set through the cycle for 2-3 chords, then playing the "ordinary way" (diatonically, no cycle) for other 2-3 chords, and again.
    This way I was able to play the complete progression maintaining the left hand in a fixed zone of the neck.
    It's useful when you want control on the register of the instrument and the "thickness" of sound, while maintaining complete freedom to play any chord anyway.
    More you insist on each way, more your hand shifts on the neck.
    Comes handy e.g. when comping with another guitarist that moves in different positions during the solo and you don't want to interfere and play in the same register.

  42. #591

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    Just went by this new tool...
    I see many things in common with our beloved cycles, "traditional" jazz theory (Modal interchange), voice leading, classical...

    just a tool, but new perspectives can lead to new ideas...




  43. #592

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    Hi guys. I come back to the cycles sometimes when I feel like I'm overdoing with parallel motion.

    If interested, made a little etude that uses 4 part 4ths in cycle 4. Added some arpeggiation and pedal notes

    4 part 4ths in cycle 4

  44. #593

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    not sure if this was covered before but jumping off something Bako/Barry wrote a while ago, thought this was kind of interesting

    looking only at triads to start, analyzing all cycles just as repetitions of one-note-changes, that is either cycle 6 or cycle 3. So analyzing everything as, for example, cycle 6, then cycle 6 "twice," then cycle 6 "Three times" etc, or the same for cycle 3:

    Cycle name how many "moves"? what changes in one "move" two moves three moves four moves
    Cycle 6 Cycle 6 "once" 5 moves up a 2nd
    Cycle 4 Cycle 6 "twice" 5 and 3 move up a 2nd
    Cycle 2
    (parallel motion)
    Cycle 6 "three times" 5, 3, 1, all move up a 2nd
    Cycle 7
    (similar motion)
    Cycle 6 "four times" all move up:
    5 up a 3rd
    3, 1 up a 2nd
    Cycle 3 Cycle 3 "once" R moves down a 2nd
    Cycle 5 Cycle 3 "twice" R and 3 move down a 2nd
    Cycle 7
    (parallel motion)
    Cycle 3 "three times" R, 3, 5, all move down a 2nd
    Cycle 2
    (similar motion)
    Cycle 3 "four times" all move down:
    R down a 3rd
    3, 5 down a 2nd



    This perspective exposes the smallest-interval type of voice leading, but also the alternate movements for cycle 2 and cycle 7

    something I thought was interesting about this is you can keep repeating to get voice leading with larger intervals - for example if we did cycle 3 "five times" then it's a bit like "cycle 11" rather than cycle 4. R and 3 move down a 3rd, 5th moves down a 2nd.

    Another interesting application is just adding a melodic tone or two in passing to get to other cycles. some examples here Cycles | Soundslice

    In any of this stuff, I always find it useful to acknowledge which voices are moving in terms of low/middle/high. Depends which cycle, inversion, and spread you start on, but once you start there's usually a clear pattern of something like low, middle, high, or high, middle low.

    shrug

  45. #594

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    quick FYI -
    I posted book 1 and 2 for sale on Reverb.

  46. #595

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    Hello everybody,

    necessity is the mother of invention, and I'm happy to share this:

    Chord cycles for guitar online app
    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-chordcycles-png

    If you use it, PLEASE, report some feedback comment (maybe in PM or on the facebook page, to avoid cluttering this forum...)

    Beware! I still consider it "beta version" so expect some light (or not-so-light) changes in the future...
    there is no instruction manual, and I set up a facebook page in case you need support: Chord cycles for guitar | Facebook



    one side note:
    It's made with and for computer screen in mind, and I'm aware that more and more people are using tablets and cell phones, I tried repeatedly to find an easy and cheap way to build an android/iOS app, but didn't find one.
    The safest way to get this is to hire some professional firm/developer, and after that, there are annual fees to pay for inserting the app in the Play Store /Apple Store, ecc...
    My intention is not to sell the app and make money with it, but I don't want spend money just for the glory either...
    I was considering some kind of crowdfunding... but I don't know how much it would be appealing in the real world...
    What do you think?
    ... anyway, enjoy! And take the time to like and say hello on the facebook page...

    e_del


    Great stuff, many thanks, I am a bit late, but I've just started using your app.

    I've been using the GoodChord stuff since 2015, they have improved my harmony knowledge on the fretboard, it's like a new hidden world has been revealed to me. Excellent books for harmony.

  47. #596

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    Quote Originally Posted by TH
    Any ideas about what might make these new horizons less intimidating are welcome.

    Honestly, I'm starting to think that many guitarists these days are less interested in finding new harmonies and sonic textures and more interested in learning one specific practical application albeit one laid out and quantified by someone else.
    That's partially because the guitar seems a huge learning curve from learning someone else's arrangement rote and having the ability to spontaneously know melody, harmony and the fingerboard even with just a few chord voicings.

    It may just be that voice leading harmony wasn't popular enough to survive the modern economy, as landing a man on the moon isn't feasible anymore.
    Back to exploring self publication.

    I got Mick's first goodchord book when it came out, and still have it. I thought it was super interesting at the time and practiced quite a bit out of it for about a year. As I've gotten more interested in voiceleading over the years, I haven't done much with the books since. I got the later "creative chordal harmony for guitar book", but didn't practice much out of it because honestly, the musical examples aren't really my thing, I don't think there's any kind of jazz I'd rather hear less than triad pairs over stella by starlight.

    There's a bunch of things that would make the book(s) more useful for me:

    1) a significant % of the voicings aren't playable at all on guitar. I totally get that this is part of the point and they address this issue in the forward, but, it remains that you have to cherry pick a lot of things out of the book.

    2) The DNA of this book is chord/scale, the first book is completely diatonic. the most interesting parts of voiceleading to me is the "connective tissue" of the harmony, the secondary dominants and diminished passing chords. One of the reason that the Barry Harris harmonized sixth diminished chords are so "popular" is because they sound great out of the box. Completely diatonic voiceleading doesn't really sound much like jazz out of the box. again, they are clear in the intro that it's a "batteries not included" book, but, there are absolutely editorial decisions made.

    3) The structure of the book is every motion possible between chords, which is great if you have tons of time to devote to this study. For the rest of us, looking at motions from and to 4ths and 3rds are much more interesting.

    4) The MSRP thing is just weird, I get that it's meant to be a puzzle, but I have no motivation to figure out WTF this is.

    In short, I think the book(s) would be a lot more useful if it were both more opinionated, and also more pragmatic. I don't know Mick, but have been reading his books since I was a young teenager, and I don't think being opinionated is really his thing, so perhaps this is an unrealistic suggestion. But there could be more concrete suggestions for how to use this material, Mick does a great job of this in the advancing guitarist.

    The later book on pairs, creative chordal harmony, uses stella by starlight to illustrate the concepts, which I think is good, except for I'm just so sick of this tune

  48. #597

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    pcsanwald,

    Sounds like you have given this material a very fair shake in relation to your musical tastes, learning style and realistic time available.
    Couldn't resist the idea of what if an approach diminished was added before each chord
    voice led through a cycle. Barry Harris 8 note scales are essentially chord pairs which create variety through swapping notes (borrowing).

    Drop 2 - Cycle II

    B F Ab D ------ C G B E

    Bb E G C# ---- C F A D

    A D# F# C ---- B E G D

    G Db E Bb ----- A E F C

    F# C Eb A ------ G D F B

    F G# B D ------- G C E A

    E A# C# G ----- F B D A

    D Ab B F ------- E B C G

    etc.