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  1. #501

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    A framework I thought of yesterday after reading David's last post to help organize choosing cycles from the perspective of representing a function and reaching an arrival point. These assignments were made quickly and I'm not even sure that I fully agree. Modify to whatever sounds right to you.This can be applied to any scale type or even scale pairs as well as triad over bass, quartal cycles, etc. It just requires deciding which structures can function as extensions and which are passing chords.


    Ima7 - Cma7
    Extensions: Em7 ... Am7

    Passing chords: Dm7 ... Fma7 ... G7 ... Bm7b5

    IIm7 - Dm7Extensions: Fma7 ... Am7 ... Cma7 ... Bm7b5

    Passing chords: Em7 ... G7

    IIIm7 - Em7Extensions: G7 ... Bm7b5 ... Cma7

    Passing chords: Fma7 ... Am7 ... Dm7

    IVma7 - Fma7Extensions: Am7 ... Cma7 ... Em7 ... Dm7 ... Bm7b5

    Passing chords: G7

    V7 - G7

    Extensions: Bm7b5 ... Dm7 ... Fma7 ... Em7

    Passing chords: Am7 ... Cma7

    VIm7 - Am7

    Extensions: Cma7 ... Em7 ... Fma7

    Passing chords: Bm7b5 ... Dm7 ... G7

    VIIm7b5 - Bm7b5

    Extensions: Dm7 ... Fma7 ... G7

    Passing chords: Cma7 ... Em7 ... Am7

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #502

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    A framework I thought of yesterday after reading David's last post to help organize choosing cycles from the perspective of representing a function and reaching an arrival point.
    Wow. You're fast!
    I'm exploring this very slowly, aurally and one cycle at a time.
    The gist of it being that from the time a chord in a given measure is played, 'til the point at which a target chord is arrived at in a tune, much can transpire.
    In traditional harmony, it can go straight from chord to chord, or incorporate any number of detours (walking up diatonically, use of turnarounds, secondary dominants, side slipping, modal interchange and dominants, reharms... all the stuff beyond just "arriving") and getting from start to finish can be elegantly accomplished through any number of steps (beats, chords, lines) depending on which cycle you employ.

    So if your chord progression makes a cycle 6 progression in the tune, let's say it goes from CMaj7 to an Am chord, you might use
    CMaj7 | Amin
    C Maj7| E7 |Amin
    C Maj7| Bmin| E7| Amin
    etc.
    but why not arrive with a voice led line of convergence?
    You can voice lead directly in two chords cycle 6
    C Maj7| Amin
    three chords cycle 7:
    C Maj7| Bdim| Amin
    four chords cycle 5:
    C, G, D-, A-
    Five chords cycle 4:
    C, F, Bdim, E-, A-
    Six chords cycle 6:
    C, D-, E-, F, G7, A-
    Seven chords cycle 3:
    C, E-, G7, Bdim, D-, F, A-

    Pardon my loose nomenclature, I assume you all know basic chord anatomy implied by the reduced symbolism.

    The point being that cycles can be inserted within the parameters of two chords to create a harmonic journey different from that of convention. Knowledge of chordal and harmonic context is required of course, especially if you're substituting a different scale in a modal interchange situation, but I think this does open up some interesting implications for exploration of this material.

    As Bako says, I'm not sure I fully agree, but it's an interesting use that you might chew on and voice your thoughts on. And always, these voice led progressions are so elusively melodic that a 5 chord cycle 4 progression does not sound like chords moving in fourths.

    Now when I own this knowledge, then we'll see a happy me.
    David

  4. #503

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Which books are now available, David?
    This very second? All of them. By the end of the day? That may change. It depends on who's orders arrive in the mail. Sorry, but it's getting really low on some volumes. I did put aside reserve books for international forum members who expressed interest. I've been trying to find a less expensive way to ship. They've gone out to some members who have domestic connexions (a Canadian member has a pickup point just over the border...) but at such a great delivery expense, $66 in one case, I sought more viable alternatives.

    Brief interest was expressed as somebody approached Mick about taking over republication of all Goodchord material, but the party never got back to Mick so we'll just say this is what's out there.
    David

  5. #504

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    I have been reading this thread on and off over a period of time, but never had anything to post. However, I have been thinking about this and felt it was time. For me, it was a very fortunate occurrence that The Podium, in its old location, sold these books when they were in print. I knew nothing of the author or the books, but one of the people who worked there was a 1970s graduate of Berklee College of Music. I don't recall if he knew Mick Goodrick or not, but at that time, the school was apparently very much into the Schillinger approach, and apparently the school was originally built around it. Anyway, I purchased all three volumes that you guys are discussing here, along with the rhythm book of that series. I also purchased the original pair of Schillinger books on Composition at an online used bookstore. This was all around the same time when the Goodrick books were in publication. This person at The Podium told me that, to really understand the Goodrick books, you had to understand Schillinger's approach. Around the time that I got the Schillinger books (expensive!!!), which were published in the 1940s, I also got a version of Walter Piston's Harmony book from that same era because the Schillinger books references it and because I had read elsewhere that the Piston book was changed over the years after that publication.

    Anyway, I have a wealth of information on my shelf as represented in all these books that seem to be related across history. I have read some of Schillinger, but it would take some serious study to get through them. I "dabble" on and off with the Goodrick books, as it seems many do. Lately, I have been really digging in again, probably because I recently got a nice used Godin nylon string Multiac Encore that makes playing these cycles rather easy on the hands.

    Lately, what I have been finding most useful is NOT making these books complicated through endless analysis, but instead, just playing through the cycles and HEARING what sounds they produce and then playing with them to hear what I can do with them. Fingerstyle is great for these, since many would be otherwise unplayable. This probably seems overly simplistic, but in the end, music is really all about what sounds we make and how these communicate to other people. I can readily see how, over time, just playing through this material could begin to alter how I approach the fretboard and music in general. These cycles gradually become the basic musical vocabulary. I think the ear, rather than the mind, is the best judge of what to use where and when.

    This approach requires little more than a solid knowledge of where the notes are on the fretboard. You just have to be able to quickly "see" this stuff on the fretboard to play it. I got this ability from a book by Ted Green called "Chord Chemistry" years ago. In the beginning of that book, he proposed a very simple daily exercise that is far superior to anything else I have ever seen for solidly getting the fretboard in hand and mind. A lot of people have apparently made a lot of money with all manner of publications on how to learn the fretboard, but Ted Greene did it in one small paragraph, almost as an afterthought, that only takes a few minutes a day. I can readily translate the notes in the Goodrick books to the fretboard and hear how they sound. I like the fact that the cycles are presented as letter notes rather than standard notation because that does not suggest where or how to play them.

    I don't consider myself a jazz guitarist, or really anything specific other than that I use my fingers instead of a pick and enjoy learning new things and playing. I have played a long time, but am primarily self-taught. I have played in a number of live group situations, and did a stint for a couple of years back in the 70s on the Holiday Inn and supper club/resort circuit full time as an AF of M sideman. That work does not require any level of sophistication on the instrument, other than to be able to read charts and do something with them. So I don't have the level of sophistication that many here clearly have, but I can play and do know my way around the fretboard, know basic diatonic theory, and can read as well as figure out stuff by ear off recordings.

    I have read here that there is a new set of books becoming available that split up the original Goodrick books in a different manner. I am sure those will be great, but I do like the original books because I can just open one of them anywhere and just start playing until some musical idea occurs to me, and then I play around with that. The books are sort of like having the phone book for a very large city, opening it up, and randomly calling people just to chat. The original books are very uncomplicated, leaving you to figure out how you want to mine the material. I can't think of a better way to have presented this material.

    My suggestion is very simple - don't forget to just play these things and LISTEN to how they sound and where they lead you musically. They are similar to somebody saying something that triggers a new thought in your head, sending you in a whole other direction conversationally.

    Tony

  6. #505

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans
    ... I do like the original books because I can just open one of them anywhere and just start playing until some musical idea occurs to me, and then I play around with that. The books are sort of like having the phone book for a very large city, opening it up, and randomly calling people just to chat. The original books are very uncomplicated, leaving you to figure out how you want to mine the material. I can't think of a better way to have presented this material.

    My suggestion is very simple - don't forget to just play these things and LISTEN to how they sound and where they lead you musically.
    Tony, thanks so much for posting this.
    While there's a lot of thoughtful conversation here, I love this thread because it has, at its core, a community of guitarists who have decided to take their ears to a new place.
    Too often guitarists have fallen into a compulsion for complexity, an obsession for innovation but with the thought of besting the status quo.
    I love the things Mick shares through his publications because there's nothing forceful about his approach; nothing that even hints that this will make you a better player. It truly is an extension of one man's discovery of a larger potential of harmonic language, of sound that is virgin untapped and unrecognized in the traditions of improvised music.

    You're right that sound is the heart of music. If there were a way to explore these sounds without the clatter and chatter, it'd be in the musical hang and playing among peers of the same sensibility. I have that luxury here in Boston. And to the rest of the world, maybe with use of YouTube and questions shared among and within this community of explorers, we can find the inspiration to take these books off the shelves and be the conduits for sounds that even Mick doesn't have in his philosophy.

    Those who've found real application in this material have an uncannily similar story: Try out an idea. Play with it until it's in your fingers. Make it comfortable. Make it natural. Write your own little pieces for working on. Wait...
    Some time in the future something appears in your playing that seems oddly familiar yet is different from anything you can remember playing. People comment "Where did THAT come from?" and then you recognize it as an obliquely poignant section of that piece you wrote. The sound is finally yours to speak with.

    It really is in the ear. This place in the forum is a great safe haven in which we can all let advice, observation and wisdom percolate.

    Thanks for your piece, Tony
    David

  7. #506

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    David:

    Thanks for the response. This is a great thread, and i am certainly enjoying reading it. I really like what you said here:

    Those who've found real application in this material have an uncannily similar story: Try out an idea. Play with it until it's in your fingers. Make it comfortable. Make it natural. Write your own little pieces for working on. Wait...
    Some time in the future something appears in your playing that seems oddly familiar yet is different from anything you can remember playing. People comment "Where did THAT come from?" and then you recognize it as an obliquely poignant section of that piece you wrote. The sound is finally yours to speak with.

    Thanks,

    Tony

  8. #507

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    Slightly off topic, so I'll apologize in advance.....

    Does anyone else know this feeling, you're practicing, and you reach a place where you realize theres a specific recording that has all the answers you're looking for, so you put down the guitar and rush to the turntable, iPod or in this case, the YouTubes.....

    There was a video of Mick with Dewey Redman, playing "Lonely Woman", that seems to have been removed from YouTube. If anyone knows where I could find the clip, or at least the audio, it would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    PK

  9. #508

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    A framework I thought of yesterday after reading David's last post to help organize choosing cycles from the perspective of representing a function and reaching an arrival point. ...
    Well, some time ago I came up to this "Diatonic matrix", trying to get a global perspective on the cycle stuff...
    Easy to write, a bit harder to use, I think I already shared something similar (didn't check all the thread), but anyway...

    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?-cycle_matrix-png

    no use if you don't internalize it, but nice handout for a quick check.
    Decide how many "steps" you want make and see what is the cycle that fits...

  10. #509

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    Hi, I've lurked in and read through this thread several times, really enjoy the discussion -- great to see it pick up again with lots of thoughtful posts about movement using the cycles. And cheers to David for continuing to make the remaining books available and providing (gentle) guidance here and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    Well, some time ago I came up to this "Diatonic matrix", trying to get a global perspective on the cycle stuff...
    Easy to write, a bit harder to use, I think I already shared something similar (didn't check all the thread), but anyway...
    e_del, thanks for posting your matrix, the recent conversation in the thread reminded me of another matrix you posted sometime back up thread that I found useful to print out and stare at. The other one you shared had the added dimension of 'steps' or moves within each cycle to a target chord from a given starting chord. It was helpful for me to have these options iterated and laid out visually to help grasp even some of the possibilities. I like the almanacs for that reason as well.

    Anyway I'm just dipping a toe in these waters, but really great work here everyone applying a whole additional layer of opportunities and subtlety to the Goodchord material.

  11. #510

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    Slightly off topic, so I'll apologize in advance.....

    Does anyone else know this feeling, you're practicing, and you reach a place where you realize theres a specific recording that has all the answers you're looking for, so you put down the guitar and rush to the turntable, iPod or in this case, the YouTubes.....

    There was a video of Mick with Dewey Redman, playing "Lonely Woman", that seems to have been removed from YouTube. If anyone knows where I could find the clip, or at least the audio, it would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    PK
    Some of these recordings came from European broadcasts. Maybe if some of the European members might have some advice on accessing German broadcasting sources, that might be a good place to look.

    I have audios of performances done in Boston. Maybe I'll try to figure out a way to get them posted.
    David

  12. #511

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    new playlist: Goodchord CYCLE 2 MAJOR, close and open triads, all string sets...
    It's a 12 video series, so I'll give you the YouTube playlist link, instead of cluttering the thread.

    just an example:


    enjoy, and if you spot any error, please write me a note...
    If you will, like the Guitar Font facebook support page

  13. #512

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    new playlist: Goodchord CYCLE 2 MAJOR, close and open triads, all string sets...
    It's a 12 video series, so I'll give you the YouTube playlist link, instead of cluttering the thread.

    Fantastic! This will give people a real idea of how the material can get read, relate to the fingerboard and see the movement as the player does.
    Who's going to perform these and post them on the thread so we can hear it and see it done?

    And on these triads... the added bonus round, play them with one voice suspended, maybe as a 9th, then resolve it as a single note between chords. You won't believe how this can add tension and movement even more.

    Thanks e_del!
    David

  14. #513

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    I really like it focuses on one string set. Just tried to go through it in 12 keys. Its pretty effective for that!

  15. #514

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    I have a question for you "cyclists"

    I'm trying to figure out how to play the TBN I & II, and the Spread Clusters on the guitar, but some weird fingerings appear, not all playable...

    I know that the common suggestion is to get around by breaking the part on two players, or arpeggiating, etc...

    But I wonder if can be appropriate to displace here and there some voices an octave up or down, through the progression.
    This way some (not all) non-playable fingerings could become more friendly, but the voicing movement coherence on the string set gets broken...
    Is it "legit" ?

  16. #515

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del
    ... some weird fingerings appear, not all playable...

    I know that the common suggestion is to get around by breaking the part on two players, or arpeggiating, etc...

    But I wonder if can be appropriate to displace here and there some voices an octave up or down, through the progression.
    There's a reason there are no instructions in these books. There are also no rules saying how you use this material.
    There's quite a bit here that's not playable all over the guitar. Some of it can only be played by some people with certain size hands on certain places of the guitar... some of it can be played by people who tune their guitars differently. Some is of the realm of piano players only.
    What you do is take the voice leading and make it into music.
    If it sounds good and it works, then the books have served you well.
    If it inspires you to do something aside from the original design of the patterns, then it's not the patterns per se but it's music, The books have served you well.
    If you can find 3 chords in the whole three volumes that sound great together, and they become something you build your sound on, then it has served you well.

    It's just an organized system of pure permutations. It's a virgin box of voice led possibilities. It's one door out of the grab a chord world that most guitarists have come to believe is the universe. So if you open the door and you make your own map to somewhere that was not there by design, but you've made your own map and it's a beautiful place, it has served you well.

    Put it on the shelf and obsess over what can't be done, ...way to many people in that club already.

    David

  17. #516

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    I've developed numerous strategies to address chord structures that I can't play simultaneously.
    Dyad arpeggios are one such approach.
    Attached is a TBN #1 example I threw together just now that integrates dyads of one skip.
    It also hasn't been proofread, so if anyone finds an error, don't be shy or polite.


    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bako; 05-22-2016 at 10:51 PM. Reason: chord symbol mistake corrected

  18. #517

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    Question: Has anybody gotten to the point of applying these to actual tunes yet? I'd love to see/hear how you're doing it.

  19. #518

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    Question: Has anybody gotten to the point of applying these to actual tunes yet? I'd love to see/hear how you're doing it.
    Here in Boston, a few of Mick's students have been doing that very thing. Andrew Cheng is an experimental guitarist, composing and improvising with just that.
    In New York, Kenji Herbert is doing the same. Using largely triadic material superimposed over changes and within compositions. There's a guitarist who works out of Brooklyn, Ben Monder, who also uses this material within his own compositions and I've him set up an introduction to a piece beautifully with cycle material, I believe from volume 3.

    It helps to work with others, if you have that luxury, as integration of sound and hearing other people work is really inspiring. Something happens when a small group of players really begins discovering new sounds; at some point, one person's individual sound gets integrated into things the others do.

    We've been working with a few guitarists at the Westland Music space here in Boston. It's become a workshop of improvisational conversation. But most of the time we're too busy playing to be recording. Maybe one of these days...

    David

  20. #519

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    We've been working with a few guitarists at the Westland Music space here in Boston. It's become a workshop of improvisational conversation. But most of the time we're too busy playing to be recording. Maybe one of these days...
    I'm aware, and I know I haven't been down there in a good while, but I didn't think you'd forget me THAT quickly. :P

  21. #520

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    Question: Has anybody gotten to the point of applying these to actual tunes yet? I'd love to see/hear how you're doing it.

    Actually I'm still trying to get the cycles under my fingers, and moreover I'm stepping back from tetrads to triads, because they are easier, and it's my intention to become fluent enough to start using them as chord extensions (or upper structures, if you will) while playing with other instruments... non need to hurt myself with tetrads at the moment

    One thing I started to do is using the cycles to control the fretting hand position, so I can play chord progressions in one register without getting into other player's way, and have all the needed chords available anyway.
    You can do by mixing some voicing from the cycles (going down the fretboard) with the "traditional" ones (going up the neck)

  22. #521

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    here are the animations for the MAJOR SCALE TRIADS, cycle 3 and 4:

    If you play them also backwards basically there are all the cycles for major scale triads:

    Recap
    Cycle 2 triads (played backwards: Cycle 7)
    Cycle 3 triads (played backwards: Cycle 6)
    Cycle 4 triads (played backwards: Cycle 5)

    Now I'm trying to find an easy way to turn all these into melodic minor...

    As usual, didn't check everything out, and if you see any error, please tell me...

    enjoy

  23. #522

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    Quote Originally Posted by e_del

    Now I'm trying to find an easy way to turn all these into melodic minor...
    Not sure how these are coded, but numerically, once the voice movement is established, and the notes of the scale are all inputted, changing the E to Eb will give you the melodic minor. It makes it easy to take the almanac chapter on harmonic minor, change the Eb to E and get all the harmonic majors too.
    There's a whole new set of sounds right there.

    Thanks for these animations. They can really show the big picture without even having a guitar in hand. It's going to help a lot of people break through to that first step.

    David

  24. #523

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Not sure how these are coded, but numerically, once the voice movement is established, and the notes of the scale are all inputted, changing the E to Eb will give you the melodic minor. It makes it easy to take the almanac chapter on harmonic minor, change the Eb to E and get all the harmonic majors too.
    There's a whole new set of sounds right there.

    Thanks for these animations. They can really show the big picture without even having a guitar in hand. It's going to help a lot of people break through to that first step.

    David
    Yes, since everything is in word processor-styled documents, I'm trying to figure out some macro programming to make the "smartest" search/replace, with the least possible manual intervention...

    E to Eb gives melodic minor, then sub A with Ab and you have harmonic minor
    A to Ab only gives harmonic major...

    Enrico

  25. #524

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    Hi - Does anyone here think about MSRP in the Goodchord books? Haven't seen mention of it here recently and it's quite a hard term to search for on a site filled with gear talk. Anyway, after living with volume I for a while and staring at the MSRP for some of the 7th chord cycles tonight, the DNA reference in the introduction sort of clicked-in and wow that's really cool. A little bit more of the iceberg under the surface revealed.

    On a separate note, I never gave a thought to things like page color...but yeah I see that's alluded to in the introduction too. Mick's a painter, right? Curiouser and curiouser these books.

  26. #525

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    Quote Originally Posted by studiotan
    Hi - Does anyone here think about MSRP in the Goodchord books? Haven't seen mention of it here recently and it's quite a hard term to search for on a site filled with gear talk. Anyway, after living with volume I for a while and staring at the MSRP for some of the 7th chord cycles tonight, the DNA reference in the introduction sort of clicked-in and wow that's really cool. A little bit more of the iceberg under the surface revealed.

    On a separate note, I never gave a thought to things like page color...but yeah I see that's alluded to in the introduction too. Mick's a painter, right? Curiouser and curiouser these books.
    When you get a cycle "off book" and really internalized, the canonic aspect of the MSRP becomes really natural and obvious. Each cycle has a different melody an you begin to notice some things, like chord movements that happen along triadic root movements have more repeated notes, ones that are diatonically related move differently... that kinds of stuff and I'm wondering what happens when there's enough familiarity that you can switch cycles within a line and change the melodic line. That's one of the ideas that lies beyond the format of the Almanacs themselves. Along with the creativity that comes when you take a toy out of the box and really play with it.
    Taken as ear training, the Almanacs can also train you to hear the movement within chords, inner voices as well as outer ones. How many guitarists choose chords for their root or melody note movement alone, and rely on one family of "grab" instead of being aware of internal voice movements? The cycles, MSRP and chord families are really good ear training aids for multi voice awareness-as you found out. Cool.

    Yes the multicolour presentation helps you work with scale families so you can quickly access groups of cycles within their parent scales. Yes, Mick's a painter, and he draws and plays at a regular life drawing session in Boston. But that's another story.
    David

  27. #526

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    David - thanks for these insights, so much to explore. That's a great sensation when you begin to hear an element reliably (structure, progression, line, pattern, voicing, whatever) and then notice it everywhere as if previously it was in plain sight, just beyond your ability to perceive.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    I'm wondering what happens when there's enough familiarity that you can switch cycles within a line and change the melodic line.
    Wow yes...mind blown.

  28. #527

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    Hi

    First, what is the MRSVP? (don't have the page with the term, probably misspelled). I have only recently started to think of the triads with bass notes, so theres even more now?

    I have had two ideas recently regarding the cycles. One is to "improvise" cycles meaning you pick two cycles and mess around with them both and switch between them ad libitium. I guess that can be done with all cycles at all time, but that meal is a bit too big for me just now.

    The other idea is to sing the "bass" note or whatever you would call it in a cycle. I have some voice register problems, but one can basically practice any step of a scale by singing that step consistently and move along with the chords.

    Example: cycle two in C major.

    Practicing thirds. Chords: C,Dm,Em,F,G,Am,Bo.
    Singing notes: e,f,g,a,b,c,d

    You can practice hearing any step this way!

  29. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaclaus
    Hi
    First, what is the MRSVP? (don't have the page with the term, probably misspelled). I have only recently started to think of the triads with bass notes, so theres even more now?
    Hi - MSRP is defined in the Goodchord books as Melodic Strand Replication Procedure, and "...like melodic DNA that makes up harmony". From my limited experiences, aurally it's a distinct melody or canon implicit in each cycle in a scale.

    The books confirm that the voices systematically pass a melody around in a distinctive way that correlates with the particular cycle played in a given scale. And the order that each succeeding voice takes up the melody relates to the voicing used to play the cycle. So following on what David suggested, change cycles to alter the melody, and potentially choose voicings within a cycle to control where a line appears.

    Singing any of the voices in the cycle you would experience the melodies without the distraction of making the vertical stack of pitches happen in time on the guitar, so that's a good suggestion yaclaus.

  30. #529

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    Sharing a reference I just created. It charts out all the 4 chord (triad) sequences drawn from major, harmonic major, melodic minor and harmonic minor. It includes the cyclical movements as well as combinations of several cycles.
    Like the almanac, the idea is to voice lead them starting on each inversion.

    This is complete overkill, but I can't help myself sometimes.
    I partially blame/thank Jake Acci for introducing me to a cool internet permutation tool.

  31. #530

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    There's no kill like overkill! Could you share the permutation tool with us?

  32. #531

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    I admit that my theory is weak. I just never spent a lot of time on it although I should have. Too much acoustic sing along Beatles and the like and basic rock band material but yes some Steely Dan etc.

    A lot of the earlier links don't work and I'm not sure I get some of what's being put forth because it's worded as if the reader already has an idea of what's going on.

    Where's a good place to start in this thread or should I bone up on basics first?

    Thanks

  33. #532

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    The thread is referential to a collection of books.
    In that they are out of print, some recent posts are about how to procure them.
    There are many posts scattered throughout that give insight into some of what these books contain.
    See what you can find and try it out. Hands on is the way to go with these books.

  34. #533

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    Thanks for the reply. I looked a few pages back and I'm getting a better picture now of what's going on. At first I thought the numbers and notes pertained to specific frets and was wondering how anyone could have executed some of those. LOL

  35. #534

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    Recently someone wrote to me asking how this material can be used on a standard. Great and extremely time consuming question but one worth getting into.
    Anybody want to suggest a tune (let's not do ATTYA cycle 4) that we can collectively pool our ears and experiments on to harmonize with some of this material?
    Sort of a collective workshop on new sounds over old chestnuts?

    For those of you looking for the books, I'm organizing the remaining copies and will get ready to put them out for final sales and shipping. I had some bad experience with the US Postal Service losing, shredding, misplacing and black-hole-ing copies of these precious books so I hate losing them to the void. They also don't seem to be able to track down or find things after they are lost so I'll figure something else out.

    For now, let's take a look at some actual songforms and the Almanacs' treatment of them. The beauty of this is, nobody has any idea of any "proper" way to use this material so it should be very interesting to see everyone's different approaches. Should be very interesting!

    David

  36. #535

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    For those of you looking for the books, I'm organizing the remaining copies and will get ready to put them out for final sales and shipping. I had some bad experience with the US Postal Service losing, shredding, misplacing and black-hole-ing copies of these precious books so I hate losing them to the void. They also don't seem to be able to track down or find things after they are lost so I'll figure something else out.



    David
    Any chance you'll ship international orders? I've been on the list for months...

    Thanks!

  37. #536

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearhead
    Any chance you'll ship international orders? I've been on the list for months...

    Thanks!
    Anybody on the forum know a way to send international packages besides USPS? Honestly, I've sent books overseas and it cost me $60. It seems an extortionate rate. Gearhead, if you want to go ahead or can suggest an alternative (I just handed off two sets of books headed to UK and France to friends traveling within US, and they acted as couriers.)
    Yes, I'll do that. You make the call. Sorry these are the options I'm aware of.
    David

  38. #537

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearhead
    Any chance you'll ship international orders? I've been on the list for months...

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Anybody on the forum know a way to send international packages besides USPS? Honestly, I've sent books overseas and it cost me $60...
    Yes, I'll do that. You make the call. Sorry these are the options I'm aware of.
    David
    Gearhead should just set up an account with Buy in the USA and UK, ship globally with Borderlinx . And TruthHertz could post the books to Borderlinx in Ohio. Gearhead arranges to have Borderlinx ship them to him by DHL to wherever he is.

    I bought 5 books from TruthHertz and he posted them promptly. My parcel had a chargeable weight of 5.65Kg or about 12.5 pounds. The 3 tomes weigh about 3 Kg. Make it 4Kg with packing. (Lcm x Wcm x Hcm/5000 = dimensional weight in Kilogrammes. Billable weight is the larger of actual or dimensional weight.) Figure a charge of $7 per Kilogramme to Europe. That's about $28. There are credit card discounts that could help lower the cost. Check them out.

    It is all trackable as Borderlinx is DHL essentially.

    The books are really worth the cost of international postage. Grab them before they are all gone. Otherwise, be prepared to pay over $350 per volume if you can find them.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 09-22-2016 at 02:27 PM.

  39. #538

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    For those of you looking for the books, I'm organizing the remaining copies and will get ready to put them out for final sales and shipping. I had some bad experience with the US Postal Service losing, shredding, misplacing and black-hole-ing copies of these precious books so I hate losing them to the void. They also don't seem to be able to track down or find things after they are lost so I'll figure something else out.
    I'm very interested in the books. I did send several PMs but never got a reply. I have a MyUs address so shipping shouldn't be a problem.

    let me know if it's possible to buy the books.

    best regards Per

  40. #539

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Recently someone wrote to me asking how this material can be used on a standard. Great and extremely time consuming question but one worth getting into.
    Anybody want to suggest a tune (let's not do ATTYA cycle 4) that we can collectively pool our ears and experiments on to harmonize with some of this material?
    Sort of a collective workshop on new sounds over old chestnuts?


    David
    David, what about a tune like "Nefertiti?" Slower tempo and slow enough harmonic rhythm, some interesting root movements. Although finding a chart that everyone agrees upon may be a bit challenging.

    We could always do Stella or Falling Grace. Lots of harmony to be explored there.

  41. #540

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    Hello everybody,
    I realized that the various voicing type in the cycles have a "fingerprint" made by the voice formula
    (that sometimes correspond to a chord voicing, sometimes don't)

    I try to explain:
    1) Piano voicing, drop2, drop3, drop 2&3 and drop 2&4 voicings are actually different assembly of the same voices 1,3,5,7.
    Piano voicing is the plain 1357, drop3 voicing is 1753, etc...
    In the end the voice movement on the single string is always the same. What is hanging is the "stack" where the cycle starts.
    I think this is related to what Mick goodrick refers to the M.S.R.P

    2) On the same principle, Quartal voicing are different combination of 1,3,4,7

    3) Triad over bass I is about voice 1,2,5,7

    4) Triad over bass II is about 1,2,4,7

    5) spread clusters is about 1,2,3,7


    (I hope I was clear enough about my point...)

    in brief, the considered voicing so far were:

    1 3 5 7
    1 3 4 7
    1 2 5 7
    1 2 4 7
    1 2 3 7

    my question is: does it make sense to explore all the possible combinations of 4 (3 for triads) notes?
    (think to all voicing containing the 6th grade of the scale)

    There's no reason to stop, so I could find cycles for any of the combinations... once the pattern is found, it's easily computable, but I'm afraid it would result in a useless list of voicing noone would use...


    What do you think?
    e_del

  42. #541

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    as a complement to my previous post, here is the complete development of the 1 3 5 7 voicings, with inversions

    1 3 5 7
    piano 1


    3 1 5 7
    drop3 2

    5 1 3 7
    drop2 3

    7 1 3 5
    piano 4
    1 3 7 5
    drop2&3 1


    3 1 7 5
    dbldrop 2&3 2

    5 1 7 3
    drop2&3 3

    7 1 5 3
    drop2&3 4
    1 5 3 7
    drop 2&4 1


    3 5 1 7
    drop2&3 2

    5 3 1 7
    dbldrop 2&3 3

    7 3 1 5
    drop2&3 4
    1 5 7 3
    drop2 1


    3 5 7 1
    piano 2

    5 3 7 1
    drop3 3

    7 3 5 1
    drop2 4
    1 7 3 5
    drop3 1


    3 7 1 5
    drop2 2

    5 7 1 3
    piano 3

    7 5 1 3
    drop3 4
    1 7 5 3
    dbldrop 2&3 1


    3 7 5 1
    drop2&3 2

    5 7 3 1
    drop2&3 3

    7 5 3 1
    dbldrop 2&3 4

    all the permutations are covered through the various voicings, but the pattern for each single voice is the same.
    e.g., talking of cycle 2:
    root doesn't move
    3rd descend 1 step (diatonic)
    5th descend 1 step (diatonic)
    7th descend 1 step (diatonic)

    Cycle 2 has this 0 -1 -1 -1 pattern repeating through the chords, whichever the voices are stacked...
    cycle 3 works the same, only with a different pattern, so it does cycle 4, etc etc...

  43. #542

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    Three note diatonic structures:

    organized by the diatonic interval in between the 1st to the 2nd note and then the 2nd to the 3rd.

    Cluster

    Close

    2 2
    2 6
    6 2

    Open
    3 7
    7 3
    7 7


    7th (no 5th)

    Close
    2 3
    3 5
    5 2

    Open
    4 6
    7 4
    6 7

    Suspended

    Close
    2 4
    4 4
    4 2

    Open
    5 5
    7 5
    5 7

    7th (no 3rd)

    Close
    2 5
    5 3
    3 2

    Open
    6 4
    7 6
    4 7

    Triads

    Close
    3 3
    3 4
    4 3

    Open
    5 6
    6 5
    6 6

    The possibilities of permutation is a vast rabbit hole, so how then should a useable or useless chord voicing be defined?
    Some will draw the line at what is playable or sonically understandable? I extend the playable parameter by expressing impossible stretches in sequential dyads. Are we better off perceiving each structure as a unique static chord or as
    a variation on a more common chord function arrived at by moving a note(s) to an adjacent scale tone?
    No one size fits all answer to be found.

    e_del,

    Using a permutation tool, it is easy to chart out all the possible note combinations derived from a given note collection.
    Have you done any programming that can organize the structures that are inversions of each other?

  44. #543

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako

    e_del,

    Using a permutation tool, it is easy to chart out all the possible note combinations derived from a given note collection.
    Have you done any programming that can organize the structures that are inversions of each other?
    Actually not...
    The 1 3 5 7 permutations I wrote in my example come from the development of the various voicing we use on the guitar.

    I realized that in the end all the possible combinations were covered, and that was a "a-ha" moment for me, that made me think about all the other possibilities...

    It shouldn't be too hard to develop a routine that expands all the combinations of a pitch collection... but would it help? I mean, apart the academic interest, would any player find it worth using it? I would get lost in such massive dataset...

  45. #544

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    Hello everybody,
    I've almost finished a new version of a online guitar-oriented chord cycles app, and I need some advice about some "standard" fingering option for the more unusual voice sets...

    Trying to explain.
    if we consider the normal 1-3-5-7 voicing, we have the "standard" combination on the various string sets like
    - "piano style" : 1,3,5,7 on strings 4,3,2,1, or 5,4,3,2, etc, etc...
    - drop 2 : 1,5,7,3 on strings 4,3,2,1, 5,4,3,2, etc, etc...
    - drop 3 : 1,7,3,5 on strings 6,4,3,2, or 5,3,2,1
    - drop 2&3 : ...
    - etc.. etc...

    The usual drop voicing basically cover all the 1,3,5,7 combination, that are more or less "left hand friendly", and I present them in a pre-complied list of options.

    My problem comes with the less usual voicing like triad+Bass, etc...
    Basically what you come up is a combination of voices 1,3,4,7, or 1,2,3,7, or 1,2,4,7, or 1,2,5,7...
    I want, if possible, to list some default string set option for each voicing, but I'm having some trouble figuring out what are the most useful.
    What do you think? Do you have any suggestion?

    (Simply presenting all the string set combinations would result in a mass of unnecessary options. If needed, the user will be able to vary the standard ones as it wishes)

    thank you in advance to anyone willing to help
    Enrico

  46. #545

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    Some chords in this rather large collection are just not playable.
    This leaves us with 2 basic options:

    1. skip over and ignore such chords which still leaves more than a few choices.

    2. develop strategies to play such chords using a non-simultaneous broken style approach.

    I opt for the latter of the two.

    Busy the next few days but if you give one example I can detail how I might approach it.

  47. #546

    User Info Menu

    Thanks bako!
    Would be great if you could suggest also the "least dangerous" fingerings/string set to insert as a default when that particular voicing is selected...

  48. #547

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bako

    Some chords in this rather large collection are just not playable.
    This leaves us with 2 basic options:

    1. skip over and ignore such chords which still leaves more than a few choices.

    2. develop strategies to play such chords using a non-simultaneous broken style approach.

    I opt for the latter of the two.

    Busy the next few days but if you give one example I can detail how I might approach it.
    Yes -- #2, otherwise known as "arpeggios!" Great idea!

    When I did the "summer jazz camp" with Mick in 2009, people asked about the "non-playable" chords. One idea from Mick was to try changing some of the chords to "9th" chords (2-3-5-7); of course, that's probably "Volume 4!"

    Another option was to not think like a solo guitarist, and use your band-mates to hit other notes while you play two or three notes.

  49. #548

    User Info Menu

    Here is a little preview video of my new chord cycle application...
    I hope you like the new format.
    It took some time, but it's almost ready, just a matter of adjusting some detail and the theme colors.
    Stay tuned...

    Enrico


  50. #549

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    It looks great! Thanks Enrico

  51. #550

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    Enrico,

    After watching your tool video, I understand what you are after.

    1,3,4,7, or 1,2,3,7, or 1,2,4,7, or 1,2,5,7...
    While your tool can play these notes with ease, few people can.
    These are all variants of 1,3,5,7 physically speaking.
    Some voicings are playable on some string sets, on some upper frets by some people.

    One trick that works at times is to displace the bass note down an octave

    C X X E F B is more possible to play than X X C E F B

    The number of possibilities of how to organize a broken chord approach are way over the top for what you are
    trying to present. Perhaps a generic sequential dyad approach might be the way to go.

    So C E F B is presented on consecutive strings but sounds CE > EF > FB.

    C > EFB is good in this instance but the challenging stretches occur in different parts of the voicing when we invert and will inevitably present problems.

    I address this situation on a case by case basis. The effort is rewarded because these broken approaches can also be applied to the playable structures.

    Sometimes what is needed musically is to state the harmonic color in a single gesture.
    The best we can do in that circumstance is to edit the unplayable structure to the note combination that best defines the harmonic intent of the chord.

    For C E F B - I would play E F B or perhaps C F B