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When playing rhythm guitar with a drummer, would I listen to the high hat of the drummer for rhythmic ideas? If not, which percussion piece (bass drum, snare, etc)?
Also which percussion piece would the bass guitar listen to for cues?
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06-03-2011 10:16 PM
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when comping, listen to and respond to the soloist.
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Jazz rhythm is about the ride cymbol.
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In the big band days, the advice for the rhythm guitarist was to lock to the highhat. That required a drummer who kept time well. As one drummer said to a guitar player with tungue in cheek: "If we are wrong, we are wrong in unison, and that should sound pretty convincing to the others". Of course, in the Basie band, everyone - Basie included - had to lock to Freddie Green.
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As a former bass player, that's what I had to lock into. The high hat, snare and expecially the bass drum were all syncopated while I kept the basic rhythm with a few fills here and there.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Well the OP asked about rhythmic ideas, not about locking into tempo or groove.
I take that to mean "how do I decide which rhythms and figures to play in my comping."
Time has to be kept with the band...but the "when" and the "what" of comping should be in support of the soloist.
Also, unfortunately not all drummers are always clicking 2 and 4 nor are they giving you nice 8th notes in the ride cymbal.
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But then again I guess it depends on what type of jazz we're talking about.
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It's a bit unclear what the OP is talking about, but if it is comping in swing with a drummer (not playing 4's) then the groove of the drums is in hihat/cymbal and communication is in snare/bass (roughly speaking anyway). So I'd try and get accents together with the drummers snare and bass.
Jens
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Good afternoon, Judy... Originally Posted by pdxjxm
As the drummer, I'd be listening to all around (ok, principally the solist...); I would just as well 'reply' to the rhythm guitar or the bassist (or, indeed, both differently...). It's a symbiotic thing, really; there is not 'one' clueing all the others, but rather all clueing all (if all is going well, at least...).
Listen, indeed, to the drummer, but listen equally to all around (no, you fool; not the waitress who just dropped a tray of drinks..!). We are all contributing to the 'beat' and 'swing'.
That's how I play, anyway...
(wanders off, muttering... '...but don't listen to me; I'm only the drummer. What would I know? After all, you're the real musicians. Whoever heard of listening to the drummer, huh? First time for everything, I suppose, but it won't catch on...')
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In most jazz that I like, this is the paradigm they work within. Originally Posted by Dad3353
Listen, indeed, to the drummer, but listen equally to all around (no, you fool; not the waitress who just dropped a tray of drinks..!). We are all contributing to the 'beat' and 'swing'.
That's how I play, anyway...
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Originally Posted by oldane
Did you read somewhere that everybody in the band was locking to FG, or is this something that you're hearing? I'm interested because, to my ear, Basie's band was one of the few large ensembles that *really* swung, and it's hard for me to imagine "everyone locking to Freddie Green" would be a good recipe for that kind of feel - nothing against Freddie....I guess what I'm trying to say is that in order to swing as well as Basie's band did, I wouldn't think that anyone was really locked to anyone, and that is was more of a group push / pull kind of thing....
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I guess if you were playing straight ahead swing, you want to lock into the quarter note pulse and play into that. But most jazz that is being played, by me anyways, has a far more 'loose' vibe, like a lot of the ECM records, where the grid and pulse is there, but the soloist runs the show. Its more about listening to the soloist and rhythm section, and complimenting what is going on, harmonically, rhythmically, and dynamically. In a situation like that, you'd be hard pressed to impress anyone, especially the soloist, by playing straight ahead charleston figures the whole time, even if you were doing some of the hipper things with it.
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Even though a guitarist comps for the soloist in a combo, he's still a member of the rhythm section, not an independent entity. BTW, in an old school big band, the acoustic rhythm guitar was more for the band than for the audience.
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I mostly agree, although I quite liked this particular outing: Originally Posted by sc06yl
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Bingo! That's always been my understanding as well... Freddie didn't beat high action on cables so he could be heard OVER the band, but so he could be heard BY the band, esp the rest of the rhythm section. Originally Posted by max chill
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A good idea for getting comping ideas that I should have mentioned, that I like a lot, is to lift comping patterns from players that you like. I spent the better part of a month a year ago just lifting parts of Keith Jarrett's left hand from the standards album...he's definitely known for his melodic material, but his comping is first rate, and one of my favourites by far. And if you have time, lift the right hand too...even just the head of say All The Things You Are on the Standards Vol. 1 disc, will give you an idea of what good modern comping looks like against a melody.
Basically I am elaborating that hip comping isn't really related to the drums or bass insofar as looking for 'ideas'. In the example of ATTYA from the KJ standards disc, everyone is playing in time, but there is no one rhythmic hook or figure that drives the tune that I can hear. From the 80's but still hip as hell... (I should also mention that sometimes the bass (Gary Peacock) hangs back a little, thats always hip when someone who has that great feel can play just behind the beat and the drummer is locked right in there...its hard not to let out a KJ squeal when that goes down)
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This is just an aside. The Basie Band's rhythm section was dubbed "the Great American Rhythm Section". It included Joe Jones on drums, Walter Page on bass, Freddie Green on guitar (my hero) and Basie himself on piano. The articles say that the four of them functioned like one instrument especially Freddie and Walter. I have a lot of trouble telling the two of them apart on the records. Another article which I think was posted on this site (?) said that when Freddie heard someone out of time, he'd give him a look and then sat dwon behind them until they got their time right. That leads me to believe that they all did lock on to Freddie ultimately. Again, this has nothing to do with the OP's question. Then why the hell did I write this? I must be tired. Originally Posted by Spirit59
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I forgot to add, I knew that, I turned a phrase poorly. Originally Posted by max chill
The way I see it, most of the other musicians don't think guitarist are musicians so being not happy with that I decided I am too good to be called the rhythm section, I am the guitar section now! eat that horn/piano players...! <---joke
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