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Mark Levine, The Jazz Theory Book p. 48
Key = C, 3d mode = E Phrygian
Problem = if you play that mode over Em7, dissonance between chord and C because C = b6 of E (note: same is true of all modes of C vs. E chord of any kind).
Solution: sub Esusb9 for Em7.
So far so good. My problem:
In the example he gives (Fig 3-47), he says "The Dsusb9 chord is from the Phrygian mode of the Bb major scale." But the example is Am7, Dsusb9, Gmaj7. IOW a 2-5-1 with Dsusb9 as the V. IOW it's in the key of G. The idea is to play the 3d mode of G i.e. B Phrygian. How did we get to "The Dsusb9 chord is from the Phrygian mode of the Bb major scale" ?
1. How did Bb become involved?
2. What happened to B Phrygian (key of G)?
I thought maybe it had to do with major vs. minor but the first example subs a susb9 for a minor (in order to play the 3d i.e. Phrygian mode of C i.e. E Phrygian), while the other example subs it for a major, i.e. D7, the V in a 2-5-1. So major vs. minor makes no difference, as one would expect, from the explanation given.
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04-08-2011 02:53 PM
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This is just ML's explanation of how a 7susb9 chord is built. Not all of us agree with that explanation. To my mind (and ear), it has nothing to do with the Phrygian mode. This question has been discussed before. You may want to scan through this:
Mark Levine THE JAZZ THEORY BOOK: Who's read it here???
Peace,
Kevin
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Yup. This one get's everybody to scratch their heads in wonder.
I see the chord B phryg. in the RB and for years and years I thought it meant quartal chords from the phrygian mode. Only this year I read that it's supposed to mean b9sus4. Go figure.
There are a couple of threads about this at AAJ
The just of it is that the D phrygian mode contains the b9 and sus 4 of the D7 b9 sus4 so that is the mode they associate with the chord. It has nothing to do with the fact that phrygian is minor and that the F is natural
The Bb comes into it as D is the 3rd or phrygian of Bb. That's all. G is still the resolution target. Except.... That I have usually seen the b9sus4 with the ii chord (Ami) being Ami7b5. I may be mistaken but I think that's the more common usage.
I'll look for a link at AAJ.
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Here's a quick link. I'm sure there are others but since I 'm not a member I can't search there. There's even some posts here as well
What is Sus and Phyrigan Chord? - Jazz Bulletin Board
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I read both threads in their entirety, thanks.
I must be missing something fundamental.
The context is: a ii-V-I in the key of A; a substitute is sought for the V. The proposed sub is Dsusb9.
The statement is: "The Dsusb9 chord is from the Phrygian mode of the Bb major scale."
The questions are:
1. How do you get from the key of A to the key of Bb to get the mode?
2. How do you get the chord from the mode?
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Ron,
I can see why this is confusing. My view of chord-scale theory is that it's a recipe book: "When you see this kind of a chord in this particular context, this scale will give you a set of notes to play that sound OK with the chord."
It happens that Phrygian mode sounds good over a 7susb9 chord. This doesn't mean that the chord is in some way *derived* from the scale. And so I agree that Levine's statement is misleading. The Dsusb9 is not FROM Phrygian mode. Rather, D Phrygian gives you a good-sounding set of notes to play over the chord when you are improvising.
By no means is Phrygian the only mode that sounds OK with a 7sus4b9 chord. The second mode of melodic minor, which I call Dorian flat two, also sounds good with these chords. And no doubt there are more.
Does this make more sense to you?
Richard
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It's in G minor, which is the same as Bb major. The Am7 is irrelevant, since the dominant chord has a much stronger tonallity, that sounds like we're in Gm for a sec.
I think the term is modal interchange, which is simply borrowing chords from the parallel key.
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
1. No flats are noted? By my reckoning Bb/Gm have two flats, Bb and Eb.
No sharps are noted either, but hey. I didn't write this dickwad book, I just bought it. Acccording to the author, it's in C, so we're both wrong.
2. The third chord is Gmaj7 ?
You can get to Bb from Gm in the sense that Bb is the relative major. But how do you get to Gm in the first place?
3. A-D-G is a 2-5-1 of some kind. The example says Am7 Dsusb9 Gmaj7. If you un-substitute the Dsus chord, back to D7, you have the classic ii V7 Imaj7. Whatever happens before that, or after -- which in any case we can't know because it isn't part of the example -- that's a 2 5 1 in G.Last edited by Ron Stern; 04-08-2011 at 08:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist
It happens that Phrygian mode sounds good over a 7susb9 chord. This doesn't mean that the chord is in some way *derived* from the scale.
Does this make more sense to you?Last edited by Ron Stern; 04-08-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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Yeah, my take on ML is that he's more of a pragmatic than a theoretical guy. He comes up with theories that work but sometimes leave those of us that like epistemological clarity shaking our heads.
The fact that he thinks of a D7susb9 in the key of G as being part of the D Phrygian chord/scale (or more accurately a Phrygian Dominant scale to get the F#) is fine - we sub scales all the time, especially when we start altering notes. (Although, I could also argue that B is a viable extension for that chord.)
The explanation that was offered that the i7susb9 is sometimes used as the contrast chord in Phrygian modal jazz is a whole other thing. While I agree that it can be associated with Phrygian, that fact that it is being used as the contrast chord speaks against it having a "Phrygian" flavor.
But again, I think that some people have gotten a little carried away with this hagiographic adoration ML. He's one guy. True, he's a very successful guy, but he's just one guy. This is how he thinks of the chord. It is not the only way to think of the chord. Sometimes this book gets referred to as "the jazz bible" - that is ridiculous. It is an important theory reference but you have to keep it in perspective. He's not really trying to create a comprehensive reference of jazz theory. This is more just a reference for "the theory that ML likes to use and how he thinks of it." Again, that makes it worth reading, but the bible it ain't.
Peace,
Kevin
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
1) D is the 3rd of Bb. Hence it is D phrygian which makes it derived from Bb major
2) Nothing happened to it. It still exists in the key of G. It just isn't relative to D7b9sus4
D7 b9 sus 4 is D G A C Eb. There technically is no F# (3rd) because a suspension makes it so. Sus is specifically used (or was used ) to say " Hey, it's not an 11th because we don't want the 3rd"
Back in the day the predominant scale to use against this chord was the Phrygian mode. (You could also use the second mode of the jazz melodic minor against this chord as well)
Since then (60,70,80's) this thinking has evolved to include other scale choices and to even include the 3rd despite the term sus4.
That's all there is to it.
Personally I don't use the phrygian for the b9sus4. I tend to treat it differently. I think of it as Cmi over D or Ami7b5/D or even Ebma7b5/D which gives me more possibilites than to just think of it as b9sus4
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D Phrygian in relation to D Dominant
D---Eb---F---G---A---Bb---C
1---b9--#9--4----5--b13---b7
It's the minor pentatonic plus b9 and b13. All acceptable dominant colors.
Several minor modes can also function against 7th chords without the major 3.
Dorian has natural 9 and 13, Aeolian has natural 9 and b13, etc.
I don't know about Mark Levine's explanation but there is no great mystery here.
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Theory. There's a reason it's called theory. So relax and explore - no reason to trip.
All chords need to be approached in light of their context - this type is no exception. If thinking phrygian works in a particular context - fine....or maybe it might be better approached as some sort of dominant chord.
And not just context - go with what works for you.
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It's a visual thing for me. The Dsusb9 resembles a Cm, and I guess that can be construed as the Dorian mode to Bb, and consequently the D can be construed as the Phrygian mode to Bb.
But the key is G, so that Cm seems closer to a IVm in the key of G than a Dorian in the key of Bb. I like to play a jazz minor against a IVm.
You say tomato, I say tamahto.
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
I see now how Dsusb9 is derived from the third mode of Bb. The first note of that mode is D so you get a D for the root. Then as you say you add the sus4 which is G. Then Bb which is the b7. Then Eb which is the b9.
I got this by using the every other note method (except for the sus4 and the b9) which I got from Mark Levine. It doesn't match up with your version of "D7 b9 sus 4 is D G A C Eb" but I don't know if there are any relevant differences.
Note that either version violates Mr. Levine's statement that sus4 chords now contain the third. This one doesn't. The third of D is F#, which is not in the chord, as you say. Evidently jazz theory still relies on some of the old myths.
I think I also see where the Phrygianality comes in. The Phyrgian sound is b2 AKA b9. But the context is key of G. b2 of G is Ab.
The Levine recipe is, change keys to Bb, go to 3d mode, build a b9 chord. That's a "Phrygian chord" (b9 = b2 = Phrygian) relative to the new key, not the original key. He might have said so, if that's what he meant.
So again, how did he get from G (a 2-5-1 in G, i.e. A D G) to Bb? You can go to lots of keys and find a mode that starts on D and build a chord on it, to get a D root chord to sub in for the original D7. If you want the new chord to be Phrygian you flat the 9. Why restrict yourself to Bb? Is this a theory or a recipe?Last edited by Ron Stern; 04-10-2011 at 11:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
b9 on dominant is a minor scale only thing, so Dsub7b9 can only be in G minor. G Minor (natural) has the same notes as Bb Major, this is only to make the D Phrygian clear. If you want you can think about it as the 4th mode of the natural minor scale, but it's the same thing.
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Originally Posted by hed_b94
Thanks
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Originally Posted by hed_b94The Dsusb9 chord is from the Phrygian mode of the Bb major scale.
-- Mark Levine, The Jazz Theory Book, p. 49
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Yes, as far as I've been told, 9 alone (and not add9/add2) implies there's also a b7. So for example C9 actually means C7,9
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Here's a thing I did. A I -IV in G, where I substituted IVsusb9 for IV, just to see what would happen. It works ! Sounds to me like "Wave" by Jobim.
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Just about any chord can lead to any chord - whether or not something "works" (subjective) is more a function of voice leading than what you decide to call it.
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As you know, I have it out for ML for this EXACT type of misinformation mixed with a body of good information. His emphasis (# of pages early in the book) really makes it seem like this is a mode you really have to master. It is not; it is a a "color" mode, and trying to squeeze in into functional progressions and sub it for a V7 chord is outright bizarre, IMO. W/o the leading tone (the M3) I don't think these chords want to resolve so much.
Here's my view (mind you there are many others)... Tirtian harmony is stacked thirds. A chord derived from an oddball set of intervals doesn't seem "right" to me. It makes me think it's an inversion of a simpler vertical structure. ML is guilty of this by using Am(b6) as A Aeolian as opposed to the simple Fmaj/A it is.
Look at the "good" notes of "Phrygian". R m3 P5 b7 b9 11 (the b6) is the only non-chord tone. These notes can be assembled by making a typical Dorian 6/9 chord, which is static w/o the b7.
Dorian 6/9 with a bass note up 1 whole-step is the sound we are looking for. Dm6/9/E is it. The chord Fma7#11(no 5)/E is also the same sound. Many tunes with a maj7/the M7 are calling for this sound. You can get it via Bm7b5/E as well.
It is derived from the iii mode, but is not functional as a iiim7 chord. It is a modal chord used for color and non-functional playing in most cases.Last edited by JonnyPac; 04-10-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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Here's two clips of my dudes playing a song based on A Phrygian. The intro chords I play are all Gm6/9 type voicings over the bassists A Phrygain vamp. The head is A min pentatonic harmonized. Hope it gives you an idea. This is how I "made friends" with the chord-scale. I like to write tunes that force me to "hear" things like this.
Last edited by JonnyPac; 04-10-2011 at 08:13 PM.
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Hey Jonny,
I don't own ML's book, so it's hard for me to comment but I've read lot's of quotes & excerpts.
I agree that chords extracted from most modes will not behave in the same functional way as they do in the major scale, and would usually require quite a bit of alteration to do so. If ML is making actual functional cadences / progressions out of Phrygian, I'd be interested to see it.
However, I personally have had some pretty nice results from drawing from the parallel Phrygian mode while comping over some dominant harmony.
Try this behind a soloist that you think can handle it:
Over that 2 bars of Galt in Stella, play quartal chords built from G phrygian - you can make lots interesting sounds that'll resolve nicely to a Cm9, for example.
I'm not alone in thinking that the parallel Phrygian can work well over an altered dominant: Check out Wayne Shorter's first phrase on his solo on the title track of the Miles Davis record ESP - he runs straight up E Phrygian over E7alt.
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I totally groove with your idea, but... It's not a "Phrygian" situation you are describing. You are saying that over G7 (in Stella V7/ii) that the notes of G Phrygian work as a dominant. The M3 is still in the underlying harmony, played/implied by the bassist if not others. The m3 in Phrygian is functioning as a #9 tension, not a m3 lower structure. It is C natural minor mixed with C harmonic minor. This is very common in jazz, and does not come off as "phrygian" in the full sense. It comes off as "Phrygian Dominant" with a #9 in the upper register. Same with the Shorter example based on E.
Phrygian Dominant is the V mode of HM. Adding the #9 explains chords like G7#9 or G7#9b13 that have a P5, not b5. The melody of Stella has a P5 and b13, so ALT or WT are not really the best choices with that tone in mind.
HM has been ruled out by ML, but it is everywhere in jazz despite it not being "hip". Sounding too "Spanish" or "classical" is totally BS; it only sound like that in Spanish and classical contexts. It's like saying that a major triad is too "happy" for a minor song. It's all a matter of placement and emphasis.
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