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Okay, here it goes, is the GHM derived from the Eb major scale or the F major scale? Also what chords can I extract from the GHM? Would I first want to just build diatonic triads? from the GHM? Then add sevenths and so on?
Thank you in advance.
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03-30-2011 02:13 AM
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G harmonic minor is derived from the G natural minor scale - which is enharmonic with (same notes as) the Bb major scale.
Originally Posted by Johnny Arthur
Triads from G HM:
Gm
Adim
Bb+ (Bbaug)
Cm
D
Eb
F#dim
7ths from G HM
Gm(maj7)
Am7b5
Bbmaj7#5
Cm7
D7
Ebmaj7
F#dim7
NB: the vii chord is different from the ii chord. Both are based on dim triads, but the ii has a minor 7th (F), while the vii has a diminished 7th (Eb).
It's also common to add a b9 to the V chord.
D7b9 = D F# A C Eb = rootless F#dim7.Last edited by JonR; 03-30-2011 at 08:24 AM.
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+1 on everything JonR said
And yes you build chords by stacking the thirds diatonically, though there are some times other chords you can extract from a scale.
Jens
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Hey out there, thank you.. I found this tune which appears to be in Eb, and apppears to be using GHM a times. So by just extracting all the diatonic harmonies from the key, and also the GHM harmonies, am I on the right path to improv freedom as far as trying various chord voicings? I want to stay as close as to the melody as I can, so would this be some kind of voice leading.
Thank you..
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What tune is it?
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Indeed! What song?
Is it maybe a progression like this?:
Gm7 Gbdim Fm7 Bb7
That would be a very common place to have G harmonic minor in Eb major.
And G harmonic minor appears from altering Eb major to contain a Adim (or in this case Gbdim..)
Jens
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"Have you Ever Really Loved A Woman" By Bryan Adams. I am no good at hearing chord changes really, so that is what brought me to all these questions, so at least I would be as close to the melody with some cool voicings.
Thank you,
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I am not underzstanding the below informatoin.
That would be a very common place to have G harmonic minor in Eb major.
And G harmonic minor appears from altering Eb major to contain a Adim (or in this case Gbdim..)
Jens
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It means that by raising the Ab in the Eb major scale a half-step to A natural, you have the notes of the G harmonic minor scale (well, except for F#). Does that make sense?
Does the tune use a D7 chord in some places? Maybe D7 to G minor, or Cminor to D7 to G minor? The G harmonic minor would fit over those chords well. (sorry, don't have access to that song).
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OK, here's the chord changes: Originally Posted by Johnny Arthur
VERSE
|Eb(#4) - |Cm(6) - |D - |D - |
|Bbadd9 - |F/A Gm7 |F - |F - |
|Cm - |Cm Bb Am7 |Dsus D |D - |
|Am7/G D7 |G - |
CHORUS
|G - |G(maj7) - |D - |D - |
|D7 - |D7 - |G - |G - |
|G Bm/F# |Em7 - |Am7 D7 |Am7 D7 |
|Am7 D7 |Am7 D7 |G(maj7 - |G(maj7) - |
There's definitely a strong sense of G harmonic minor in the opening 4 bars, which are a VI-iv-V-V in the G minor key. He's really milking the pseudo-flamenco sound of the scale, with the nylon string guitar and that opening guitar figure before the verse. (The (#4) and (6) are not actually in the chords, but in the melody. Both A notes, of course.)
This is definitely the place to bring out those harmonic minor licks.
(You could add 7th, and b9 and b13 to the D chord if you felt like it.)
The next 4 bars of the verse are in Bb major (I-V-vi-V), which is relative major of G minor. (G harmonic minor is obviously not right here, because of the strong presence of F natural. Bb major scale!)
In the 3rd line it starts working its way to the key of G major, which is confirmed in the last 2 bars. And of course the chorus is entirely in G major. (All the guitar fills in this section use the G major scale.)
So it's an interesting sequence, if only in that it strongly suggests G minor to begin with, but without ever using a Gm chord.
BTW, there is a bridge to the song:
|Eb(#4) - |Eb(#4) - |G - |G - |
|D7 - |D7 - |G - |G - |
The Eb(#4) - given its previous context - suggests G harmonic minor again, but could just be Eb lydian (Bb major). The rest is G major.
That's followed by the guitar solo, on the first 8 bars of the verse sequence, in which he uses (as suggested above) G harmonic minor scale on the first 4 bars and Bb major on the 2nd 4.
EDIT: chord chart adjusted to fit 6/8 (2 triple beats per beat).Last edited by JonR; 03-31-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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To me, this song is a bit too simple and distinctive for a jazz over.
Anyway, JonR is basically right, four measures (if you take this as 6/8 instead of 3/4 ) G-min (implied Spanish, Mexicano), then on to Bb (or F then to Bb) then G major. Wandering key centers and rubato feel are a characteristic of intros and overtures, warming the ear up for what is to come. And yes the dissonant A (#4) is in the melody.
So, as I understand the questions, and that's not easy -
I don't think you can pull from the GHM as a path to "improv freedom."
First, I would resist the idea that "scale" leads to freedom.
Second, IMO, there is no strong prference of F# or F before the D-chord. And during the D chord there is no strong reason not to use both F's.
Generally, I don't take this chord movement as "harmonic minor," just because there is an Eb. Many types of minor-key songs with a Eb(7)-D(7) movements are not HM. Examples: It Don't Mean a Thing, Agua de Beber, Walk Don't Run. If the composers aren't thinking scale-scale-scale on this chord movement, why should I?
BTW, I am surprised, given the history of the forum, that no one told you to use the Bb Jazz minor for the Eb#11.
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Well, as it is, it certainly isn't jazz, and doesn't seem to belong here. But then jazz was only ever about messing around with popular music... Originally Posted by Aristotle
And there's some interesting changes there, well worthy of discussion from a jazz perpective, if the OP is into that (and he has come here, rather than to some rock theory board...).
Originally Posted by Aristotle
Right, I'd say definitely 6/8! The way I marked the chords didn't make that clear. Out of habit I marked it as 4 beats per bar and it's 2. I shall now edit my previous post...
+1 Originally Posted by Aristotle
True. F would fit equally well (and perhaps better) on the Eb and Cm. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Maybe, but the F# is clearly in the chord. Harmonic minor is a reasonable choice, and F natural could easily be a passing note. And of course (this being a jazz forum) we could mention D HW dim and D altered too... Originally Posted by Aristotle
The attraction of harmonic minor is that it fits all 4 chords, and so unifies them as a progression. But still, there's enough time on the individiual chords to explore other options.
Very true. Originally Posted by Aristotle
It's clearly "minor key" (IMO), and of course the minor key has variable 6th and 7th degrees. The chords here allow a variety of Fs at least.
It won't be long now... Originally Posted by Aristotle
BTW, I am surprised, given the history of the forum, that no one told you to use the Bb Jazz minor for the Eb#11.
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Even when jazz was popular music? Originally Posted by JonR
When there is a drummer stomping and the first downbeat, and hitting the snare on the second one, I'd say definitely.I'd say definitely 6/8!
Looked over on Wiki. Amazing how much play this song has had.
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Of course! Messing around with popular music used to be more popular than it is now. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Hmm, I'd never heard it before - mind you I never heard of that film it was written for either. And while I quite like the tune and changes, the lyrics and his delivery kind of make me want to throw up... and the pseudo-Spanish vibe is ultra-cheesy. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Surprised to see the guitar was Paco de Lucia! It's certainly nicely played, but sounds a little like flamenco-by-numbers. I guess that's what they paid him for.
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So everyone just decided to blow me off because I am not doing a "Jazz" tune? LOL
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No one blew you off, not that there would be anything wrong in that. There just doesn't seem to be anything left of the song to discuss, given you question about whether HM scale is the path to improv freedom. The only "cool" chord voicing possibility I see G-Db-Eb-A , the second time the melody goes to A, which is added one note not on the original.
If you have a more specific question, somebody will probably answer despire your ingratitude.Last edited by Aristotle; 04-01-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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Did you see that in Wiki or see him in the video in the cafe scene? Originally Posted by JonR
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Screw you Aristotle
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You're welcome. Originally Posted by Johnny Arthur
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Now Johnny.....honestly - would Jesus write something like that? Originally Posted by Johnny Arthur
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Don't needle him. Maybe he'll ask for help with another song.
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wiki. Originally Posted by Aristotle
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I'm not "blowing you off" (especially as that has a rather different meaning in the UK...) Originally Posted by Johnny Arthur
I posted because you asked a good question, and the song is worth analysing. I don't much like the song - apart from the chord changes, which are quite interesting - but I guess there was no need for me to offer that opinion. No offence intended - not to you anyhow.
(And Mr Adams won't be bothered by what I think of him.)
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I know man, I didn't read before I commented before I read all the postings, I am brand new at this, I felt like a pile after I read all the replys, and tried to edit and I guess it went through anyway. Following that I still continued on my nitwit course and again said an ignoranious thing to Aristole. Hope he forgives me at some point.
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Who cares if he doesn't! You're welcome here, but you'll be aware there are one or two members who take no prisoners. Originally Posted by Johnny Arthur
Take a look over on AAJ too:
Music Theory and Analysis - Jazz Bulletin Board
The advice may not be any better (or clearer), but I've seen much less sarcasm or argumentativeness over there.
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