Jazz Lines

[ksjazzguitar]

... the outlines don't apply when improvisers are doing *other* things ... Ligon claimed that after transcribing hundreds of solos, he found that when improvisers were being "harmonically specific" (-which, again, they aren't always), the three most *common* outlines are the ones he gives....

Well, that is a more conservative explanation that I've been hearing described by many of the Ligon boosters. I can get a little more on board with that.

I still say that after transcribing a couple dozen solos (maybe not the hundreds that Ligon cites.) To me, that 7-3 resolution is where it is at and the rest is just how you approach it. Looking at the first 16 bars "Confirmation" solo, the majority of his approaches don't fall into those outlines. And in the pages that I've seen, he tends to pick isolated licks (without saying where they're from, only from whom) so he seems to be cherry picking a little - I would be more impressed if he showed me an entire solo with everything labeled as he sees it, but perhaps he does that later in the book.

I look forward to seeing the whole book. I'm just not ready to join the apotheosis of Ligon. It still seems to me that it just sums up to "jazz players like to do guide tone resolutions and often use strong chord tones to lead into it." I'm not aware that it's anything revolutionary. He's just cloaked it in his own analysis (not that that isn't a bad thing - it might be a great way to teach it.) But the approach is interesting and he's certainly thinking along the lines that I like, so I will end up picking it up.

Peace,
Kevin

[JonR]

I
Eg if we take markerhodes' notion of the patterns as quarter notes

No, no, no. The outlines are *taught* in quarter note exercises (-when chords last a full measure, as in a blues). With rhythm changes, the patterns are eighth notes because each chords lasts but two beats (-except during the bridge).

OK - sorry for misunderstanding.

Further, the outlines don't apply when improvisers are doing *other* things (-such as 'harmonic generalization,' where a group of chords are treated as one tonality (-hell, Charlie Christian could treat 8 measures of rhythm changes as if it were all the I chord, with a hint of the IV in bar 5) or developing a motive. (This can include working with cells; Coltrane's solo on "Giant Steps" leans heavily on the 1-2-3-5 cell; he isn't *trying* to "connect the chords" in the sense we're talking about at all. He is deliberately--relentlessly-- doing something else.)

Yes, he's outlining the chords. Triads plus passing note.
1-2-3-5 is a common bass line.

Ligon claimed that after transcribing hundreds of solos, he found that when improvisers were being "harmonically specific" (-which, again, they aren't always), the three most *common* outlines are the ones he gives.

OK, but it seems to me Charlie Parker is being very harmonically specific when he's playing 3-5-7-9. He's missing the root, but you can't otherwise get much more specific than that.

[MarkRhodes]

OK, but it seems to me Charlie Parker is being very harmonically specific when he's playing 3-5-7-9. He's missing the root, but you can't otherwise get much more specific than that.

O, sure that's harmonically specific, alright. No argument there at all.