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. . . and because E Phrygian doesn't fit over Em7?
By sus he means sus4.C, the b6 of Em7, sounds very dissonant against the chord . . . The Phrygian mode is usually played, not over minor 7th
chords, but over susb9 chords.
-- Mark Levine, The Jazz Theory Book p. 48
By my reckoning, if you "play C against Em7" you get Em7 with C added, which produces Cmaj7add9, which is surely one of the
mellowest chords there is. Be that as it may, the logic of this presentation eludes me entirely.
Mr Levine's points appear to be:
1. If you want to play the Phrygian mode, put a sus4b9 under it, i.e. re-harmonize the song, if necessary; conversely
2. If you're writing a song and you put in a sus4b9 chord, tell everyone they should play Phrygian over it.
Both of which may be good suggestions within their narrow contexts but to my mind do not comprise an explanation of major scale
harmony or even part of one.
Meanwhile back at the chart, p. 34, which is entitled "Major Scale Harmony" and described as ". . . from the point of view of
improvisation as well as chord formation", the third mode is Phrygian, OK, but the iii chord isn't Em7 but Esus4b9 -- because you are intent upon using the Phrygian mode --?
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02-06-2011 05:46 PM
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Yeah, I never really understood his sus/Phrygian thing. I'm relooking at it in his The Jazz Piano Book. I mean, that is one way to look at sus chords and iii chords. Sometimes a iii chord is just a iii chord. And sometimes a sus chord is just a sus chord and doesn't need a b9.
I think that piano players tend to like more complex harmonies than guitar players. The pure timbre of the piano allows to piano to play convincingly some harmonies that might not sounds as good on other instruments. They still work, but they lack the "sparkle" that piano can give them.
Peace,
Kevin
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You're over at a friend's house and you ask him where's the bathroom. He says, from my neighbor's back door you can see my back door, which is true. It's also true, though he doesn't tell you, that if you stand in the neighbor's back door and look toward your friend's back door you can see the bathroom door, if the friend's back door is open. And so this answers the question, where is the bathroom. Answers it for him, that is. He thinks its interesting to look at it that way. Requires an informed and sophisticated perspective. How would you know? You've never been to his house, let alone his neighbor's.
He thinks it's cute to give this kind of answer, and you say, you think that's cute, watch me take a big crap in the exact center of your living room.Last edited by Ron Stern; 02-06-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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Does the chord symbol include a triangle?
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
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He also says words to the effect of "The evolution of Western music is the gradual acceptance of dissonance as consonance." Now I don't find the C over Em7 dissonant. Does this mean I'm more evolved than Mark Levine?
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Well, you caught me with my pants down. I was looking for the bathroom but it's much less urgent now. But now you mention it, that triangle could be a clue. The issue is bound to arise again. Let me go back to page 50. I was about to use page 50 but I remembered thinking earlier "This isn't fit to . . . " well, you know. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Does the chord symbol include a triangle?
Maybe the triangle is in the bathroom. Come to think of it, how do I know it's the bathroom if the door is closed? This guy is a music theory author and that means if the door was open, he walked over and closed it.
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You guys need to get a little dirt or grease... I understand it's not standard and be can explained much better... but the, as in your example E7b9sus or E7susb9 is used in latin and jazz charts. If you think of A HM with the #9 added ... which is fairly standard in both styles... Anyway is a chord from Phrygian collection of pitches that caught on... sometimes just phrygian is played from and just called Phrygian chord . Could be called B-7b5 11. It's not a visual thing... it's a sound thing... In context.. I don't really use... but do understand when I see notation. Reg
Last edited by Reg; 02-07-2011 at 01:34 AM.
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Yeah, I've heard it called Bm7b5/E. That works too. I think Levine's way of looking at it is just one way to look at it. Like you say, in the end it;s all just labeling - which is just an abstraction, and it's the sound that's important. Originally Posted by Reg
My instinct is to label it as an E7susb9, because it's kind of functioning as a dominant chord, but without the leading tone, that's debatable. I don't think that there is a perfect labeling that will make everyone happy. Like we said in another thread, you just have to learn all the common labellings. And learn what they sound like.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-07-2011 at 02:02 AM.
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I think you are confused about what scat means in jazz. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
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Good thing you weren't looking for the bathroom when you read this, Ron. Originally Posted by max chill
Perhaps.He also says words to the effect of "The evolution of Western music is the gradual acceptance of dissonance as consonance." Now I don't find the C over Em7 dissonant. Does this mean I'm more evolved than Mark Levine?
Just wondering, do you voice the chord D-E-G-B with the C a half-step above B? You don't find that dissonant?
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In that section Levine is talking about playing Phrygian over Emin. He comes up with that sus4b9 chord to avoid that dissonance. If you strum a Em7 and play over it in Phrygian or Aeolian, the C doesn't sound out.
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Ron,
I am getting confused. You started with Em7. Now, E7sus and such stuff is creeping in. That's E7. Is this about E major or E minor tonality?
To me, this is starting to sound like the old "Spanish" C-scale from E to E, played with E7 chord (which puts both G and G# into the pitch collection). Is that was this Levine was talking about?
BTW, as far as this and the triangle question go. Isn't this Mark Levine guy on a radio show every evening where he is always yelling about everyone? I'd say call him up and ask him, but he's always hanging up on the callers.
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You and me both. It seems to be another case of insufficient respect for the difference between the indefinite article and the definite article. Originally Posted by Aristotle
"The" Jazz Theory book isn't talking about "the" theory of minor tonality, but about "a" theory of minor tonality"; more precisely, "a theory about certain aspects of minor tonality."
The defect is in the fact of the non-clarity, which cannot be redeemed by the excellence of the theory, assuming someone finally figures it out, and it turns out to be excellent. The wasted time will have been a great cost.
Near as I can figure, it goes like this:
1. Mode 3 is Phrygian.
2. Phyrgian goes better over sus4b9 than m7.
3. Therefore the iii chord is sus4b9.
Seems like putting the cart before the horse. Does he imply that Phrygian is the only thing you can play over the-chord-formerly-known-as-iii ? That would have been easy enough to say.
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Not coming down on either side here, but what's your favourite Esus4b9 grip?
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The simplest one would be 022201 OR X7746X Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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x79101010
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Ah, the good old days.
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I usually Modal Interchange, borrow or what ever method one choose to employ and use an altered typ dom. chord to get to Amin. and I like addition of G#...and F##(G)... but I do have some closet type of ears... Reg
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Ron, I think you are right. Putting the horse before the cart, I get: Originally Posted by Ron Stern
"E sus4 b9" as a V-chord is played something like E-D-F-A-B.
It resolves to a I chord played something like A-G#-C#-E or add 9 or add 6/9.
The E-chord "takes" a C-scale, aka the E Phrygian scale.
So, it shouldn't state or imply that sus b9 is the scale of the chord, but the E Phrygian is the scale for the chord. I think.
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For you guys who don't do piano.
Play a Dm6 in the fourth fret D-A-B--F (on string 5-4-3-2). Strum all 6 strings. E sus b9
(Then, play C-scale or lick).
Resolve playing G# and C# in the sixth fret on strings 4 and 3. Strum from string 5.
(The,n play A maj9 lick)
This must be what he means???Last edited by Aristotle; 02-08-2011 at 08:27 PM.
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