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Hi guys!
I'm fairly new to theory, At the moment I'm studying chords in general, (formulas, progressions etc) Anyways, I've been trying to practice comping, and the first song I started on was "All of Me" because it's simple, and I know all the chords in it...
Anyways, the version I have is in the key of "C" I believe. I got it from the Real book (fifth edition). And from what I learned, in the Major scale, the "5 chord" is the only chord that is dominant. So in C you'd have..
CMaj7-Dmin7-Emin7-Fmaj7-GDom7-Amin7-Bmin7b5
Anyways, in this song, they have the chords "D7" "E7" "A7" "Fmin7" "Eb dim7" and according to the formula I have, none of those chords fit in the Cmaj scale. right?
Anyways, I always find myself asking, "why does this work" so i can apply it other places... and I realized two things...either the song is NOT in the Key of C, or this works for some other reason, that I just haven't gotten to?
Can anyone help me with this? I hope this makes sense? If not please let me know if you need any more information.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it!
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02-04-2011 01:10 PM
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What you're seeing is a mix of the standard changing keys and using substitutions. Look up "key center approach to playing jazz standards" and "jazz chord substitutions" and you'll learn about this.
Basically, the first two bars are in C (and the chord is a C major). Cut then the next bar, where the chord is an E7, is in the key of A (E7 is the fifth of A major). The clue is the sharpened G in the third bar - A major has a G sharp and E7 is the fith.
In other areas, the chords are still from C major but they are substitutions. If you look at the Bar in the B section where CMaj switches to Emin7 on the third beat, it's because Emin7 is a substitute for CMajor.
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Sit down at a piano and try tweaking the chords so that you are comping this with just the white keys (strictly in C). Vanilla, eh?
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OOh okay, I see I see. Yes, a topic I have not yet come across. Thank you that is very helpful! I will try and look into that. I was trippin, like WHAT? lol so thank you!
and bigdaddylovehandles, I will try and do that and see if I learn anything!
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No disrespect to ecohen, but that explanation is not theoretically accurate. Every dominant 7th chord you encounter is not necessarily a modulation to a new key.
JazzFanatik, you'd be better advised to read about secondary dominants to get the theoretical answer to "why?" There are many posts on this forum about this topic (that's why I'm not elaborating in this post).
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this
Originally Posted by M-ster
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My answer was indeed uncomplete. I was just giving two if why I think are common reasons and two examples for this question but didn't list all the reasons. Originally Posted by randalljazz
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Um... I meant incomplete. Risks of cell phone typing...
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No harm, no foul, Mr. ecohen. Originally Posted by ecohen
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In this instance, E7 is the dominant seventh of A minor, not A major. This can be arrived at by simply sharping the only G which will give you an A harmonic minor scale. Originally Posted by ecohen
The next dominant, A7 is the dominant of D minor.
Definitely read up on secondary dominants as M-ster suggested.
Regards,
monk
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This I-III progression is common on songs of All-of-Me vintage.
Five-foot Two, Eyes of Blue
Georgia
Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out
Charleston
Just off the top of the head, And even more recently.
New York State of Mind.
If you learn the melodies of those songs, and try to play them all with the chords, you should begin to see why it works.
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JazzFanatik, you'd be better advised to read about secondary dominants to get the theoretical answer to "why?" There are many posts on this forum about this topic (that's why I'm not elaborating in this post).[/quote]
Thank you!!!! This is the second time I've heard this term "secondary dominants" so I will definitely have to check this out!
Whrew...i gota loooooooong road a head of me people...bare with me
Thanks so much for your help, guys!
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Most of you may already know this stuff, but if anyone is interested, I found this article that explains secondary dominants REALLY well and made things crystal clear for me..
Secondary Dominants and How to Use Them
Thanks again guys, I feel like this concept has opened up my eyes to SOOOO many different possibilities. I feel like writting a song!
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Thanks for the link, I'm also just begining to get my head around jazz, so that link was very useful.
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No problem!!! =) Yes, it is a long journey my friend, but it is well worth it.
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I'm gonna throw in another little tidbit - and please take it as that. I have no interest in getting pedantic and argumentative.
Yes. These are secondary dominants, and they are resolving by fifths. As such, you would usually choose to play altered sounds over them or harmonic minor stuff.
The one exception in my mind is the D7, which resolves via D-7 to a major chord. The placement of this chord in the progression is typical, and jazz players tend to play lydian b7 in this situation (II7), which is the same as the melodic minor of the relative minor key (i.e. A melodic minor).
For whatever reason, I hear this chord as more static than other secondary dominants, and the more stable lydian b7 seems to suit this sound, and I think you'll see this born out in bebop solos and melodies (check out the head to Donna Lee).
At Berklee they have you draw the little "resolving by fifth" arrow from this chord to the V7 chord, skipping the II-7, but that's not really how I hear it. I tend to hear it more in isolation.
Does anyone else hear it that way?
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Also, I just saw the F-7 in the OP. That's not a secondary dominant function, but rather a "subdominant minor" function or what some people call modal interchange (borrowing from the parallel minor scale). It is a common way to returning to Imaj, from a normal subdominant area, like IVmaj or IImin. The important melodic consideration here is the b6 descending to 5 (Le->Sol).
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Some of it. Originally Posted by RunningBeagle
Figured out a bunch of these ancient tunes with great-grandma's 78's and old piano, I always looked the G# as the only "altered" note in the E7 chord. The rest of the full scale of notes were still the (unaltered) white keys.Yes. These are secondary dominants, and they are resolving by fifths. As such, you would usually choose to play altered sounds over them
I believe that's a mondernized take. Most versions have used F#dim or D7/F#. That's part of one of the characteristic chromatic lines of this idiom.Also, I just saw the F-7 in the OP. That's not a secondary dominant function, but rather a "subdominant minor"
Yikes. I am with you. The D7 doesn't resolve to the G7 (or to the Dm as a II-for-V sub of G7).At Berklee they have you draw the little "resolving by fifth" arrow from this chord to the V7 chord, skipping the II-7, but that's not really how I hear it. I tend to hear it more in isolation.
IMO, some of the types of analysis I encounter now seem to be forced. I sense a tendency of people being primed to jump on anything, for example, that looks like an oppurtunity to say things like 'melodic-minor-half-step-above.' So, anything that looks like a V-I cadence - Eureka, Alt. So what if you have to ignore the intervening chord.
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