The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    THis is kind of my perspective, although instead of thinking it a mystery I thought it was crap--mostly because I got a student who was teaching himself previously with CAGED, and he was doing some stuff very wrong, IMHO...
    I remember clearly the night that I first heard the term CAGED. We were at a club to hear a fine guitar player in Atlanta named Lewis Varnedo. Some people sitting at the table behind us were talking about him. Their conversation went something like this:

    "Man, that guy's smoking!"

    "How does he do that?"

    "I heard he uses the CAGED system."

    "Yea, I know he went to Berklee."

    At the break my friend introduced me to Lewis. Eventually we ended up in a band together. I played bass for him. We were together almost every day for three years--gigging 6 nights a week, rehearsing, recording, jamming, on the road, whatever. The funny thing is that in all that time the subject never came up. We just played music. As long as the music was good neither of us cared how the other guy did it.

    It was about 20 years later, when a friend of mine was studying jazz guitar, that I learned what the system actually is. I didn't get deep into it. But I did use it to sort out some fingerings for the diminished scales which I was never happy with the book versions.

    There is a huge gap between practicing scales and playing music. I always liked practicing scales. It seems to help my playing. Although when music is happening scales get involved in a different way than they do when you're practicing.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    The "cowboy" chords are in the open position. That is a very clear definition.
    Not to me, it isn't. 'Position' describes where your hand should be, and these simple chords often don't tell you that. This standard chord of C, for example, is not so much open position as first position with some strings left open:
    [chord]

    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

    [/chord]
    Now, the 'open' A chord you are talking about can be played with fingers 1, 2 and 3, or 2, 3 and 4, thuswise (which is more like your moveable CAGED shape):
    [chord]

    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

    [/chord]
    And that is just not the same position, your LH thumb would be in a totally different zone. For that reason, I prefer to think of this A chord as being in position 0 (not 'o' for open, 'Zero' for 'less than 1').

    The C shape produces a D chord
    The A shape produces a B chord
    The G shape produces a A chord
    The E shape produces a F# chord
    The D shape produces a E chord
    All right, but we aren't talking about playing chords, we are talking about how these chord forms are used to build scales, and it's confusing as shit, as musicjohnny pointed out. In CAGED, the E shape scale at the second position is not an F#, it's a G (see Cyberfret.com: Major scale: CAGED scale system). In terms of shapes and so forth, I'm sure it makes sense, in terms of logic, it's elusive, to me, anyway. It's probably because the whole caboodle was invented after my time and I've never felt the need to go into it in more depth than this. I still don't.

  4. #28

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    CAGED was originally a swing era "roadmap" to the fretboard. The chord shapes are supposed to be reference points for improvising ala Charlie Christian for which it works quite well. George Barnes used this in his 1942 method book for swing guitar in a slightly different form.

    Sometime in the 60s or 70s, someone started teaching superimposed scale fingerings over the chord shapes which got picked up by the guitar magazines and spread through the guitar playing community.

    One of the things that causes confusion with the E form is that whoever started using this chord based map to explain scale based fingering used a first position F scale fingering instead of an E scale fingering. For the E form G scale at the third fret, the G note should be fingered with the 1st finger, the A with the 2nd and the B with the 4th.
    When you do this, it fits perfectly.

    Regards,
    monk

  5. #29

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    Oh, so that's how it works. I just assigned numbers to the forms based on the sting and starting finger. In the second position, I called the G-scale 62, the A-scale 64. I don't think can remember all that CAGED stuff.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss
    Not to me, it isn't. 'Position' describes where your hand should be, and these simple chords often don't tell you that. This standard chord of C, for example, is not so much open position as first position with some strings left open:
    [chord]

    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

    [/chord]
    Now, the 'open' A chord you are talking about can be played with fingers 1, 2 and 3, or 2, 3 and 4, thuswise (which is more like your moveable CAGED shape):
    [chord]

    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

    [/chord]
    And that is just not the same position, your LH thumb would be in a totally different zone. For that reason, I prefer to think of this A chord as being in position 0 (not 'o' for open, 'Zero' for 'less than 1').


    All right, but we aren't talking about playing chords, we are talking about how these chord forms are used to build scales, and it's confusing as shit, as musicjohnny pointed out. In CAGED, the E shape scale at the second position is not an F#, it's a G (see Cyberfret.com: Major scale: CAGED scale system). In terms of shapes and so forth, I'm sure it makes sense, in terms of logic, it's elusive, to me, anyway. It's probably because the whole caboodle was invented after my time and I've never felt the need to go into it in more depth than this. I still don't.

    Open position and zero position mean the same thing to me. The nut substitutes for the first finger.

    I agree with you on the scale fingerings. The G is a good example. In order to play the G scale superimposed on the G major chord (the E shape on the third fret), you start with the 2nd finger on the 3rd fret, which puts the 1st finger on the 2nd fret, implying 2nd position--still, that is not confusing.

    I don't think about it. You can see the G chord in the G scale, and it's an open E shape moved up to the 3rd fret.

    With the C shape, the chord and the scale turn out to be in the same position. But I don't think about that either.

    Like I said, I played for 15 years without ever hearing of the CAGED system, and another 20 before I learned what it was. Now 10 more years have gone by, and I still don't think about; maybe a couple of times, but never while I'm playing.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    CAGED was originally a swing era "roadmap" to the fretboard. The chord shapes are supposed to be reference points for improvising ala Charlie Christian for which it works quite well. George Barnes used this in his 1942 method book for swing guitar in a slightly different form.
    Good, that made me go and look up George Barnes, so I know more today than I did yesterday. I'm not totally ignorant about that musical period, but I must have overlooked him before, maybe it's a European thing. Wikipedia tells me he wrote George Barnes' Living Guitar Method; The Easy Way to Learn All the Chords and Rhythms and How to Arrange for Solo Guitar - either of them any good, worth looking for?

  8. #32

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    In CAGED, the E shape scale at the second position is not an F#, it's a G
    So, it doesn't really make sense to call that scale pattern an E-form or an E-shape, because you can't play it any more when you get down to the E chord.

    But then, if you called them by the lowest position (with open strings) you'd have the F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db forms; by the lowest closed position, you wouldn't be able to make it into an acronym.

    IMO, the useful fundamentals of the CAGED system are these.
    1. Use the five scale forms that are the easiest (least stretching and shifting).
    2. Don't worry about might be the C-form, the A-form etc.

  9. #33

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    I never put much time into the "CAGED" system but some of the responses here seem to miss something I thought intuitive: CAGED is the *order* of positions, so if you play an open "C" chord, the next C chord will be in the "A" from (root at the 3 fret) with the next being the "G" form and so on. It couldn't get much simpler than that. If you play an open "A", the next version will be the "G" shape, and so on. If you start with an open E, the next version is the "D" version. There's nothing complicated OR confusing about that.

    You may not like to do it---I'm more into the "FAD" thing of Charlie Christian that Herb Ellis and others picked up---but I don't see how it confuses anyone.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss
    Good, that made me go and look up George Barnes, so I know more today than I did yesterday. I'm not totally ignorant about that musical period, but I must have overlooked him before, maybe it's a European thing. Wikipedia tells me he wrote George Barnes' Living Guitar Method; The Easy Way to Learn All the Chords and Rhythms and How to Arrange for Solo Guitar - either of them any good, worth looking for?
    John,
    The George Barnes Modern Guitar Method is the actual title. I've collected vintage guitar books and methods for years in order to glean as much information as I can about how the swing guitarists actually played.

    From the book, I learned a few things about how Barnes organized his left hand, picking mostly all down strokes and that in 1942, he was using flat-wound strings with an unwound third.

    The Easy Way is a Music Minus One product for beginners that has little to do with jazz but does illustrate some of Barnes ideas about accompaniment. I saw a copy of How to Arrange about 35 years ago but didn't buy it. He was a master arranger and his Octet recordings are worth a listen to hear how he combined 4 orchestral players with 4 piece rhythm to create some interesting chamber jazz.

    Regards,
    monk
    Last edited by monk; 01-25-2011 at 02:38 PM. Reason: sp.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by markerhodes
    I never put much time into the "CAGED" system but some of the responses here seem to miss something I thought intuitive: CAGED is the *order* of positions, so if you play an open "C" chord, the next C chord will be in the "A" from (root at the 3 fret) with the next being the "G" form and so on. It couldn't get much simpler than that. If you play an open "A", the next version will be the "G" shape, and so on. If you start with an open E, the next version is the "D" version. There's nothing complicated OR confusing about that.

    You may not like to do it---I'm more into the "FAD" thing of Charlie Christian that Herb Ellis and others picked up---but I don't see how it confuses anyone.
    In regard to your first paragraph, +1, Bingo!, Right On! Whatever chord shape you start with, the pattern will always repeat up the neck in the same order.

    In your second paragraph, I see the Christian thing as EAC. Otherwise, I agree that it isn't confusing.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by markerhodes
    CAGED is the *order* of positions, so if you play an open "C" chord, the next C chord will be in the "A" from (root at the 3 fret) with the next being the "G" form and so on. It couldn't get much simpler than that. If you play an open "A", the next version will be the "G" shape, and so on. If you start with an open E, the next version is the "D" version. There's nothing complicated OR confusing about that.
    Sure, it's all crystal clear now, thanks, I just know it won't be the next time someone mentions CAGED in another couple of months. I suppose it must be just one of those things I have a mental block about, like the names of footballers or celebrities, or when my wife's mother is coming.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle
    ...
    But then, if you called them by the lowest position (with open strings) you'd have the F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db forms; by the lowest closed position, you wouldn't be able to make it into an acronym.
    I've seen at least one method book that did call it F-form, the Bb-form, etc. but I can't remember where.



    True, the scales can't be played in that open position, but the chords can so that's where the names come from. The scale shapes are just named after the chord positions. It makes sense to me. The fact that some of the scales can't be played in the open position is irrelevant I think, since the name doesn't come from the scales but the chords.

    Peace,
    Kevin

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    In your second paragraph, I see the Christian thing as EAC. Otherwise, I agree that it isn't confusing.
    Really? I can see the "E" but "C"? Well, it's the same note. (The root is one the B string for both open C and D chords). I can see it, though I find it much more comfortable to think of as "D" and to *see* the fingerboard that way. But really, you're working from the top down (-of the fretboard) while I'm working from the bottom up. No dispute, just a different name.

  15. #39

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    Here's a sensible post from Mr. Beamont (quote below).
    When you have actually learned the fretboard all "systems" for learning the fretboard tend to fade away. The CAGED system and all similar monkey-see-monkey-do approaches have perfect validity EXCEPT that they are dependent on fingerboard patterns rather than musical patterns. Now certainly fingerboard patterns may be used to generate musical patterns, and must be learned in order to do so - but check it out: notice how many posts talk about "visualizing" patterns and note how few (zero?) talk about "hearing" patterns, a more advanced practice (hey, it would be nice to say that I've "mastered" it, but that would be a piece of royal egotism, wouldn't it). At some point these "visualized" patterns need to be integrated into the ears, otherwise it's all music by remote control: manipulate the guitar fingerboard this way and wow, everybody thinks you know something.

    The caged system is fine but in my opinion it's still just training wheels. I dislike the name itself on principle - who wants to play in a cage? After you have learned the caged system, for heaven's sake go ahead and learn the "Bruno" system and whatever else you can get your hands on, because none of them are the end-all of music, they are just handy shortcuts to get you into the game with a minimum of training and give you a few easily remembered tricks. Note that the caged system doesn't have much room for half-diminished chords, one of the four categories Mr. Beaumont outlined.

    Mr. Beaumont's third paragraph below is the important one - I recommend that all aspirants pay attention. "Some hours", in my own case, meant actually about six months, at the point in my life where it actually sunk in that it would be of value to me to have fingerboard harmony at my fingertips. THEN the next revelation was that HEARING the relationships was more important than merely seeing them (this may occupy the rest of my life). In the light of this necessity, it doesn't make the slightest difference what approach you use to learning the patterns - just get on with it with whatever tools are at hand. The "caged" system is easy enough to learn quickly, get on with it and then go on to whatever you can find next, because "caged" is a pretty limited way to think in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    ...I thought it was crap--mostly because I got a student who was teaching himself previously with CAGED, and he was doing some stuff very wrong, IMHO...

    When I got into jazz I alrady had my major scale and major and minor chords licked...
    I wanted to relate them back to the chords I was going to be using, which I broke up into four categories-- major7, minor7, dominant and half diminished.

    I then went about learning those chords with a root on the sixth, fifth and fourth strings, then eventually arpeggios for each and inversions for each "shape" I had learned. Doing this on my own meant I really had to learn the fretboard--I didn't sit down with a book called "drop 2 voicings," I spent some hours, found them and wrote them out myself.

    You could easily relate back my visualization system to CAGED, but like I said, it's nothing I've ever looked at. Obviously, I don't teach it either--I teach fretboard knowledge and octave/interval recognition, which someone told me a few years ago that CAGED does too...I guess I like CAGED!

  16. #40

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    [QUOTE=jack_gvr;119540] notice how many posts talk about "visualizing" patterns and note how few (zero?) talk about "hearing" patterns...[QUOTE]

    This is because the fingerboard doesn't produce sound, unless you bump it into something. But you can look at it, which is a good thing to do. It's great when you're *away* from the guitar to hear a line in your head and visualize how to play it on the guitar. Just going by hearing is *not* enough on the guitar because you can sound the same pitch on different strings in different places. You have to think in terms of positions because a phrase that is nightmare to play at tempo in one position is easy in another. You've got to know how to move shapes around in that sense, whatever you want to call them.

  17. #41

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    Hearing? Seeing? Nobody mentioned feeling your way around the fretboard, but that happens too.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    I have been trying to figure out the pros and cons for each. what are they?

    Ultimately, you are going to have to figure out a way to organize a matrix of notes on the Fretboard for each key. Whether you use CAGED, Bruno's method, or 7 scale shapes. I don't think it really matters. It comes down to rote memorization, no matter what the method. Some of the world's best players didn't have nearly as many pedagogical guitar materials when they were first starting. Their mastery was based on the foundation of the organization of their neck in the most logical way.
    Last edited by Silence; 01-26-2011 at 11:23 AM.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jack_gvr
    Note that the caged system doesn't have much room for half-diminished chords, one of the four categories Mr. Beaumont outlined.

    "Some hours", in my own case, meant actually about six months, at the point in my life where it actually sunk in that it would be of value to me to have fingerboard harmony at my fingertips.

    good post jack, and not just because you agree with me!

    for clarity, to me, the half diminished chord is common enough in jazz that it deserves it's own outlook, if you will. Joe Pass simplified things into Major, Minor, or Dominant--he wasn't as concerned with the "b5" distinction that I am, I guess.

    CAGED doesn't gloss over more complex chords, but you have to do that work on your own. As for the comment on "some hours," that only referred to the writing out part--I think it took me a good year to get it straight in my head--and that's every day working on it.

    Getting enamored with solo guitar really made that happen, for me--it forced me to use all of those inversions and voicings I was learning in order to keep that melody note on top. It forced me to see stuff like, "the chart says C7, the melody note is an A, oh yeah, that's C13 sound."

    I've talked about it before (and no, it's still not finished) but the book I've been playing around with for the last few years that is tentatively titled, "The hell you can't play jazz guitar" uses this approach, playing whole tunes, as it's basis...

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    Hearing? Seeing? Nobody mentioned feeling your way around the fretboard, but that happens too.
    Yes, all this talk about visualizing the fretboard reminds me of something Dionisio Aguado said (I think, might have been Sor), along the lines of "The guitar is played in such a way that the player cannot see his fingers on the neck, which some people find difficult to cope with." In other words, watching your own fingers is a vice, not a virtue.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    I've talked about it before (and no, it's still not finished) but the book I've been playing around with for the last few years that is tentatively titled, "The hell you can't play jazz guitar" uses this approach, playing whole tunes, as it's basis...
    I would suggest a more positive sounding title. Hell Yes, You Can Play Jazz Guitar!

    Regards,
    monk

  22. #46

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    Play Jazz Guitar in 24 Hours

    <ducks/>

  23. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Getting enamored with solo guitar really made that happen, for me--it forced me to use all of those inversions and voicings I was learning in order to keep that melody note on top.
    Me too, Mr.B! That C form minor7 became my best friend when I started playing chord melody.

    I think that CAGED can be understood from a chord point of view pretty simply. I introduce it to my young non-jazz students although I don't don't really say anything about "a CAGED system".

    My basic deal for them is, "Play any open chord without using your first finger. That's a barre form named after that open chord." We then play an open E chord with fingers 2, 3, 4. Slide it up the fret board and play the barre chord in a few places.

    We do the same with A, D, C and G. We talk about the fact that the C and G forms are more of a way of "thinking" to find partial chords. (Start Me Up uses a G [or A] form shape and C Form shape. Give me Three Steps is based on partial G form in the sense that it's the kind of lick you would play on that open chord.)

    We then make them minor, dominant, etc. If they get confused about how to make it minor we go back to the open form and then figure out how to play it without the first finger. Then back up the neck. After introducing this concept I'd assign them a song they already know but using G and C forms in two different positions. You could then add the correlating scales.

    0|---|---|---| 0|---|---|--- 0|---|---|---
    ||-2-|---|---| ||---|-3-|--- 0|---|---|---
    0|---|---|---| ||---|-3-|--- ||-2-|---|---
    ||---|-3-|---| ||---|-3-|--- ||---|-4-|---
    ||---|---|-4-| 0|---|---|--- ||---|-3-|---
    X|---|---|---| X|---|---|--- 0|---|---|---


    ||---|---|-4-| ||---|-4-|---| (or)X|---|---|---|
    0|---|---|---| ||---|---|-3-| ||---|---|-4-|
    0|---|---|---| ||---|-2-|---| ||---|-3-|---|
    0|---|---|---| 0|---|---|---| 0|---|---|---|
    ||---|-2-|---| X|---|---|---| 0|---|---|---|
    ||---|---|-3-| X|---|---|---| ||---|-2-|---|


    When you know these shapes and scale degrees you can alter them to make them, Min7 etc.

    I think anyone who plays some jazz is pretty familiar with an E form barre chord or an E minor form barre chord and can easily put the related scales with them. CAGED is just a way of thinking the same way over these other shapes in terms of how the scales relate to the chords.

    I didn't really learn a system though. This is just how I talk about playing "other" chords up the neck and figuring out what Lynard is doing to high school kids.

    What Jimmy Bruno is doing is CAGED as far as I can tell. The only thing I've heard so far to the contrary is that he names the positions by scale degree, but I don't think that's a completely different deal. It's still the same five positions based around the same five chords and the scales/arps are based off of that.

    He's just thinking about it a different way and using terminology that is unique to his program and which he thinks makes more sense. To all the people who want to know how CAGED patterns would look different from Bruno on the fretboard, I don't think that they would. If I'm wrong on this please point me in the right direction, but I'm not talking about philisophical differences in thinking about chord/scales.

    I'm not a great jazz improvisor myself and will probably make use of Jimmy's services in the near future. I like his approach. It's simple and fits well with what I'm already kind of doing (which I think is basically CAGED).

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss
    Yes, all this talk about visualizing the fretboard reminds me of something Dionisio Aguado said (I think, might have been Sor), along the lines of "The guitar is played in such a way that the player cannot see his fingers on the neck, which some people find difficult to cope with." In other words, watching your own fingers is a vice, not a virtue.
    I've never heard that. My wife has said that the way I bend over to look at the guitar while I'm playing is going to throw my back out of alignment and ruin my posture.

  25. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    Open position and zero position mean the same thing to me. The nut substitutes for the first finger.

    I agree with you on the scale fingerings. The G is a good example. In order to play the G scale superimposed on the G major chord (the E shape on the third fret), you start with the 2nd finger on the 3rd fret, which puts the 1st finger on the 2nd fret, implying 2nd position--still, that is not confusing.
    I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but the reason you have those 2 positions which begin on the 2nd finger is because you're only using five shapes. Hence the 5-letter acronym. You're essentially using what some people would refer to as a "Locrian shape" for Locrian and using the same shape, starting from the second finger, for Ionian. Same thing for Lydian/Mixolydian.

    If someone's really hung up on playing a major scale starting with the 1st finger, that's fine. They just need to understand that they're adding a 6th and 7th shape. Generally speaking, stretches are avoided with CAGED.

  26. #50

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    Hi, I am new here, as opposed to nowhere. I am late on this topic...

    I like the CAGED system shapes very much. I use the top strings in each position mostly, and I move between them very comfortably. It makes the whole neck pattern digestible. I see triads and chords within too. I have trouble playing melodic lines with the three notes per sting version...