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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
Melody, Bass, everything else. with the everything else being totally dependent on the first two voices. I'm digging this thread.
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12-09-2010 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by timscarey
When I look at George Van Eps's work , I get the impression that he thought this way. He has a lot of stationary bass/melody stuff with moving inner voices. Although he probably thought about 4 voices moving all the time
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
But if you are talking moving inner voices, then you have moved beyond simple chord voicing and have moved into counterpoint. When I think about "voicing" chords, I am usually thinking about static block chords (even if arpeggiated) or at least some kind of homophonic texture (alla a sax soli, which is often how I think about comping and chord soloing.) I think of counterpoint very differently. But Van Epps is a master of blending and blurring the lines of these and other textures.
I'm not saying they can't be played together, just that they work differently. And I still say that if you are playing with a bass, then the bottom note on the guitar is not a bass note but an inner voice. Most of the time (for me) the melody takes precedence over inner voices, but I do agree that it is a nice effect to have a static melody and moving inner voices or both moving in counterpoint. But that certainly is a more advanced technique (Van Epps' "Harmonic Mechanisms" is a trilogy of books I wish I could be stranded on a desert island with.) and that it goes beyond what I would call "chord voicing." I don't really think of "counterpoint" as a sub-topic of "chord voicing" but as a different and parallel topic.
Peace,
Kevin
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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
If there is enough movement in the melody and bass then I don't worry so much about the tenor and alto voice. If the bass or melody don't move enough, then I look for ways to get the tenor/alto voices to move.
Of course this doesn't apply if there are other chording instruments and one has to be careful when playing with a bass player not to get into his range
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
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@Jazzaluk,
Thanks. Van Eps was one of the masters at this. I got the idea from his book of compositions where he holds notes in place ringing while moving other notes around. That opened up a door for me an help get me out of a rut.
The more I think this way (and work at it.) the less I think about the actual chords. You start to see moving lines.
Your right about it being a fingerstyle thing. I think that right there frees your mind up a bit
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This really fits my approach since I usually map out tunes by reducing the melody and bass notes to half-notes ( I call them melodic sketches). I practice them for quite a while to internalize the tune and explore how it best fits on the fretboard.. Then I fill in the melody and try to add inner lines. The chords seem to just fall out by themselves. Sometimes I try to add too many moving lines and muddy the composition... But your simple tip seems to help keep the composition clean. I will have to look more closely at the Van Epps book I have.
Maybe I will post some melodic sketches for fun and conversation.
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
Or if I'm doing a through composed chord-melody. But most of my chord-melodies are only half-composed or even seat-of-my-pants. I should do some more through composed stuff, alla Van Epps. I should probably look into that more.
Originally Posted by JohnW400
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 12-10-2010 at 04:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
His son went to this college as well. I never met him though. Jr. has a youtube out where he just smokes this chord solo. I don't know if it's improvised or just his stock riffs. Excellent none the less.
Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
I may think of "do I want the bass to move and how? Chromatic, scalewise, up- down, mixed , pedal. Put that together with the melody and the inner voice options almost appear by themselves.
Another thing that helped me all those years ago was to take a tune and play it using different things. This is probably good advice for players when they're starting out learning tunes.
First play the melody as written, then up an octave (range permitting) then in octaves. Then try to harmonize the melody (3rds. 6ths ect).
Next, Comp and walking bass line followed by a Chord melody.
This is where I would start working on concept things like a CM in quartal/quintal, compound intervals. After all that, then solo.
A lot of work and a lot of the stuff didn't always fit the song but good experience and a good way to start building up your 'tool box' of things to use.
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Here's a little chart from my book that covers triad inversions on the fretboard. Enjoy!
This is how diatonic triads overlap for simple voice leading:
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A simpler and shorter explanation of inversion is - starting with a root position chord (1357), raise the root one octave. This produces the first inversion. Continue this process of raising the lowest note one octave and you produce the second and third inversions of the chord.
All inversions are voicings but not all voicings are inversions.
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Originally Posted by ChuckAndersonGuitar
This is how to derive inversions in closed position, i.e. with everything within one octave. Of course, root positions and inversions don't have to be (and often aren't) in closed position, in which case this method often will not work. But is often how it is taught in the beginning, to keep things easier for the learner - but it has limited application in practice.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 12-12-2010 at 12:13 AM. Reason: slight addition
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