December 2010 - Have You Met Miss Jones

[jayx123]

tony, fep and reg thanks,
waiting to hear your interpretation on this tune. with your thought on how you approach it.

[tonyknight]

Jay - the pleasure was in the listening and hearing that an improv of this song is feasible. I'm working on it and hope that I can get through those changes well enough to post something after the weekend...

[Reg]

Here's a sample of how I would play Ms Jones over straight changes, very bluesy. I'll post another straight ahead version, 60's style, and then depending what thread wants to do, I'll post the standard re-harms, with playing samples, and verbal explain while playing. If some want... we can get into the hip shit, at least to other musicians... can get boring, but might be useful just to see composers/arrangers approach and techniques used for re-harms, melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. A fun way to play a blues or any twelve bar jazz tune is to play 1st 4 bars in 3/4, 2nd 4 bars in 5/4, and last 4 bars in 4/4, or ant version of etc... good practice. The hard parts always making the head work.
I'll try and get tonight... I have afternoon gig and my fingers are fried, from four hour gigs, Thur,Fri and Sat. nites... Best Reg
Sorry the tunes so loose... my fingers are toast... one take already hurts... Best Reg

[jayx123]

Reg, hot playing as usual

[tonyknight]

Hi Reg, please say that it took you decades of learning to play that good

Seriously, though, assuming that you were not playing that by heart, what are you visualising as you approach the song? Are you 'seeing' the chord changes, the essential guide tones with everything else linking them together, the melody plus the room to manoeuvre around it? Perhaps it's all of those things, or none of them... My guess is that you're not visualising scales and patterns as I can't see how you could interpret that data so quickly in real time

Absolutely brilliant - and a real damper for my enthousiasm to post something later on

[tonyknight]

So, coming back to the real point of this whole exercise which is all about learning, and to the point of Jay's post, is the idea of using 'chord tones' esentially to provide 'anchors' to the improvisation within moving scales? Or would this technique move away totally from the scalar approach?

Apart from the obvious idea of initially playing just the guide tones within each chord change of the backing track, are there any suggestions for developing this technique?

Many thanks.

[jayx123]

I think of it as layers (this is how I see it, it may not be the correct way, i don't know)
The base (first) layer is the key center scale of the progression
the second layer are the dominant chords in the progression
The last third(still pretty new at this) are the chord tones of the current chord.

I try to hit the chord tones if i miss/get lost/loose the changes I fall back on the key center scale till I'm up again.

[mr. beaumont]

If I'm getting what you're saying, targeting dominants (or "dominantizing" a ii V) is a pretty easy way to get through changes quickly, but don't forget the opposite idea--minorizing the whole ii V. It's a more modern sound, where as the dominant focus sounds more "old school" to my ears...

[FatJeff]

Holy crap guys, I go out of town for 3 days and come back to 70+ posts?!? Don't you guys have a life or something? :-)

Interesting posts so far, keep em coming.

The only thing I might add to the conversation has to do with the #Idim7 chord. Maybe this was already mentioned, but I always thought of it as functioning as a "leading" chord into the chord a half step higher. This comes from a more classical way of analyzing things (viidim7 -> I), and amounts to a harmonic embellishment of the Gm7, and makes for an obviously very nice transition from I to ii.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

The only thing I might add to the conversation has to do with the #Idim7 chord. Maybe this was already mentioned, but I always thought of it as functioning as a "leading" chord into the chord a half step higher. This comes from a more classical way of analyzing things (viidim7 -> I), and amounts to a harmonic embellishment of the Gm7, and makes for an obviously very nice transition from I to ii.

I think that of some dim chords that don't hang around for long, but for an entire measure, and at a medium tempo, I'm thinking D7b9.

[Reg]

Hey I just made a different version of Ms Jones, takes longer to upload to youtube than record, anyway is in 5/4 and keep the changes pretty straight, very pop like, I'll make another one right now... latin version. Thanks Reg

[Jazzaluk]

Very cool Reg. I like the way the bridge melody sounds in 5/4, and your interpretation of the head at the end. The seeds of a whole new tune.

[wizard3739]

Hey Reg, I like both versions of "Miss Jones" and am looking forward to a latin version. You are a pro!

wiz

[Reg]

Thanks Howie... Here's a latin version. Just for ideas... I wish it didn't take so long to upload... best Reg

[fep]

Reg, Thanks so much, great videos.

[wizard3739]

Thanks Reg, This will be a good showcase for a couple of my students who always think there is only one way to to play a song. Good job, Reg, tasty as always!

wiz

[Reg]

Thanks for kind words...
Hey Tony...I have been playing gigs for 40 years...I took a break while I raised my kids, composed, arranged and taught...
I always hear or think complete harmonic structure, what ever the note value, but I play lines, some harmonized, etc... I'm not a chord tone player, unless you call the complete structure all chord tones... usually called chord tones and tensions. I guess at first it's great to start with chord tones... just never sounded that great to me. There plenty of examples of great player who do so, but there are plenty of examples of players not doing the chord tone thing... I would thing a great player would make almost anything sound great. Maybe I should make video of short sections of Ms Jones and verbally explain while I play... would be easy to see? Again thanks Reg

[fep]

Thanks for kind words...
Hey Tony...I have been playing gigs for 40 years...I took a break while I raised my kids, composed, arranged and taught...
I always hear or think complete harmonic structure, what ever the note value, but I play lines, some harmonized, etc... I'm not a chord tone player, unless you call the complete structure all chord tones

Hi Reg,

I want to make sure I understand what you mean when you say "complete harmonic structure".

Say I have a progression

D7alt G7alt Cmaj7

And for the G7 alt I decide that the altered scale words well... (G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G)

Would the "complete harmonic structure" be all the material derived from that scale, like all the chords harmonized from that scale etc.?

[Reg]

Hi Reg,

I want to make sure I understand what you mean when you say "complete harmonic structure".

Say I have a progression

D7alt G7alt Cmaj7

And for the G7 alt I decide that the altered scale words well... (G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G)

Would the "complete harmonic structure" be all the material derived from that scale, like all the chords harmonized from that scale etc.?

Yes, not very complicated, sorry. I also try and be aware of where it comes from and where it's going. I don't think or hear as different chords built from each scale degree, I would hear as G altered, for example if I'm pulling from G7alt. on beat 1 and then on beat 2 I'm pulling from Db lyd.b7, beat 2 would be Db7#11 for complete harmonic structure, even if the chord symbol only said G7alt. I'm implying a new chord structure.
Which I do all the time... Best Reg

[Jazzaluk]

Yes, not very complicated, sorry. I also try and be aware of where it comes from and where it's going. I don't think or hear as different chords built from each scale degree, I would hear as G altered, for example if I'm pulling from G7alt. on beat 1 and then on beat 2 I'm pulling from Db lyd.b7, beat 2 would be Db7#11 for complete harmonic structure, even if the chord symbol only said G7alt. I'm implying a new chord structure.
Which I do all the time... Best Reg

This is similar logic that I use. To me the G7alt implies all those sounds since Db7#11 and Db7 lydian exist inside the chord as part of the sound.

Reg... going back a few pages on the thread, how about the F#dim? Using this same thinking, would not this chord exist inside the D7b9 sound? Even though it is a passing chord fro Fmaj7 to Gmi, I still see it as a D7b9... is this how you see it in this tune? Or do you see it as the 4 dominant chords on the dim chord? i.e F7, B7, D7 and Ab7.

[Reg]

This is similar logic that I use. To me the G7alt implies all those sounds since Db7#11 and Db7 lydian exist inside the chord as part of the sound.

Reg... going back a few pages on the thread, how about the F#dim? Using this same thinking, would not this chord exist inside the D7b9 sound? Even though it is a passing chord fro Fmaj7 to Gmi, I still see it as a D7b9... is this how you see it in this tune? Or do you see it as the 4 dominant chords on the dim chord? i.e F7, B7, D7 and Ab7.

I can see or hear it both ways... depends on context... True a version of F#dim 7 exists in D7b9, but depending on how you deal with the notes implies whether your using as dom. or chromatic. Just for reference I call Dim chords passing if they have chromatic root motion and approach if root motion is unprepared,( not chromatic) and auxiliary when root stays the same. When I'm soloing I usually play as dominant function , I'm usually implying D7 something... I don't play from Harmonic maj or min. very often... I'm not a big fan of Dim. chords... just personal choice...I hear passing dim chords used, as would be case in Ms Jones, very effectively a lot and when somethings written out as specifically Dim. I'll cover, and use which ever version chart implies. Your logic sound pretty straight to me, and if I used Dim. chords ...I would use it that way, although while I'm implying Dim I would be thinking of F#dim and not D7alt.
Best Reg

[tonyknight]

Reg, fantastic stuff. You're a great player - thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Paul

Hear, hear! Reg. Many thanks indeed... wonderful playing.

[Jazzaluk]

I can see or hear it both ways... depends on context... True a version of F#dim 7 exists in D7b9, but depending on how you deal with the notes implies whether your using as dom. or chromatic. Just for reference I call Dim chords passing if they have chromatic root motion and approach if root motion is unprepared,( not chromatic) and auxiliary when root stays the same. When I'm soloing I usually play as dominant function , I'm usually implying D7 something... I don't play from Harmonic maj or min. very often... I'm not a big fan of Dim. chords... just personal choice...I hear passing dim chords used, as would be case in Ms Jones, very effectively a lot and when somethings written out as specifically Dim. I'll cover, and use which ever version chart implies. Your logic sound pretty straight to me, and if I used Dim. chords ...I would use it that way, although while I'm implying Dim I would be thinking of F#dim and not D7alt.
Best Reg

Thanks Reg... This fills in some gaps for me. Much appreciated.

[saponsky]

Nice playing Reg. I love your arpeggios, can you go any faster? haha just kiding. I like the repeating lines you made with the arpeggios, it gave some ideas, I think using some inversions to the arps will give different flavors to those lines. Again nice playing!

[Reg]

hey all... are we done with this tune... Should we do another one, should I do more on changes and soloing, sometimes you play a F13, C7#9 groove on both A sections and then the B section sort of explodes because of the modulations. Possible reharms, where tune might go if we started to push the harmonic rhythm or maybe a hip or more contemporary jazz version... Should we discuss the tune structurally ... why B section does what it does... or who cares, lets move on to new tune... Best Reg