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Perhaps not, but it doesn't seem to be too important. I'm now thinking there are two ways, they're both equally correct.
Originally Posted by tonyknight
A couple of quick questions. Can we have some sort of consensus on the use of Roman caps please as there appear to be two distinct schools of thought? In the previous thread we went back and forth on this, so perhaps not
It's a dim7, the seventh of the chord is Eb. If the seventh was E it would be notated as a F#halfdim7 chord (or with a circle with a slash thru it, don't think I have that character to type though) Originally Posted by tonyknight
In my Real Book (5th edition) the chord is a F7 not a F13b9. So I'm not sure what the orginal chord was that Rodgers used. The F13b9 is the chord on Tom's backing track as he used the chords from the 557 Jazz Standards book. So I went with that. Originally Posted by tonyknight
I don't think the chord relates to the F#dim7 in the way you suggested... But that is a good creative thought which is definately part of the process of analyzing tunes.
I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that F13b9 was not the chord on Rodgers orginal chart.
I prefer F7 for a chart and let the performer decide if she is going to extend it or alter it or sub for it...Last edited by fep; 12-02-2010 at 11:36 AM.
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12-02-2010 11:21 AM
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I'm an old cat... small case are for traditional music, jazz players have no problem using whatever but there are too many situations where there are conflicts. What traditional analysis calls something of something in jazz is usually modal interchange, and has different implications...which reflect the different choices of harmonic references while playing... as I have brought up many times it's very easy to hear the difference between jazz players and players whom play jazz... this is not good or bad, simply different. So since this is a jazz guitar forum, lets at least try and cover. Best Reg
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I'm confused by your post. Originally Posted by Reg
Reg, are you saying you prefer all upper case roman numerals for jazz analysis?
Also, I believe you are saying in jazz we wouldn't use the classical "V7/V", we would just write II7. Or in the case of the Bb7 in this tune we wouldn't write bII7/iiim7, we'd just write IV7. Am I understanding you correctly?Last edited by fep; 12-02-2010 at 11:57 AM.
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#Idim7 is very standard passing chord use of Dim chord, D7b9 is one of the standard four re-harms built from the two tri-tone of F#dim7. Would not be common jazz practice to re-harm an altered dom7th chord with a Dim. chord. As compared to almost always re-harmonizing Dim. chords with one of the four possible Dom chords, usually with the related II-. Usually functions as V7 of target chord, in this case, the G-7. Chord symbols in jazz are not an exact science, there wrong all the time. The point of the chord symbol is to inform you of the complete harmonic structure. examples would be; When the symbol says F7#11, it's telling you Lyd.b7, not that you need to play that exact voicing, if we want an exact voicing, we'll write it out, or at least give a lead line. When the symbol say's Fmaj#11, it's telling you lydian, and when you comp that's where you would pull from, you don't simply play Fmaj#11... context would tell you what voicing or lead note to use. That's one of the many reason jazz players think complete harmonic vertical structures, you don't need to play all notes from complete chord, but you should be aware of them. I guess this is as good of any thread to start thinking in jazz terms etc... Best Reg
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Hey Frank... Yes All upper case. Originally Posted by fep
In reference to the Bb7, context can change analysis, Could simple be IV7, that's what you would call a Blues IV chord, right, you would never write bII7/iiim7, usually in jazz analysis, it's pretty standard sub-V, so you would not even need to notate anything. If anything, a dotted arrow from Bb7 to A-7, over the top would be plenty. That C7 , Bb7 is simply a beginning to to the turn around, which has many options, I guess we'll get into some of them... So yes, IV7 or the dotted arrow or nothing.Reg
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I agree with Reg on this. The chord symbol should communicate the basic harmonic movement and point to the scales and upper structure. The choice of voicing/inversion provides the options to generate various voice leading. To me the F#dim is an option based on D7b9. Originally Posted by Reg
I think it would be useful to agree upon the basic harmonic structure and chord name. it would then be possible to share various options to navigate the changes and help clarify what is a substitution or merely an inversion. Otherwise the discussion will be based on a moving target.
just a suggestion to move away from syntax to the fun part.
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Good points it will be good to move away from syntax. I think there are a few close calls here that probably don't really matter much. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
I think you misunderstood Reg, or maybe I misunderstood. I believe he is saying think of the chord as a F#dim7 in the standard passing chord function that a dim7 often takes, not as a D7b9.
You can start with a dim7 chord and reharm with an altered dom7th.
However it is not common jazz practice to reharmonize an altered dom7th chord with a Dim. chord.
He said:
#Idim7 is very standard passing chord use of Dim chord, D7b9 is one of the standard four re-harms built from the two tri-tone of F#dim7. Would not be common jazz practice to re-harm an altered dom7th chord with a Dim. chord. As compared to almost always re-harmonizing Dim. chords with one of the four possible Dom chordsLast edited by fep; 12-02-2010 at 01:27 PM.
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Frank - many thanks for helping out my ignorance! I'd written out the scale of F# about, oh a dozen times, and every time I ended up with the wrong note at the seventh (bb) degree! I'm going to rethink my logic now!
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Actually Frank, I'm not sure what I was thinking as when I checked the logic expressed in my first draft of my analysis pdf (attached) I was in agreement with you! Confusion is hard to get rid of!
Apologies in advance as the first part of this document is very elementary in case there are a few readers who need that basic entry point, but it gets pretty complicate pretty quickly. Therefore, it is really easy to make mistakes! If this document isn't of much use, please let me know and I'll keep it for my own use, but if it is of help, please try to help me find the inevitable mistakes.
Especially in the section on diminished chords!
Cheers,
Tony
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Tony, this is only in my opinion, someone please correct me if Im wrong, in the key center analysis in the last A section the last line ,the 2 bars marked in green is not that clear that there is a key center change to G major , I think you could also see it as the key center stays in F major because I see it as iii-7 ii-7 IMaj7 where the V7 chords act as a leading tension in this the diatonic progression.
What do you guys think?
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Here's what goes through my head with that "Am7 D7" measure: Originally Posted by jayx123
The first two times through the A section don't stray far from F major. It's the bridge that has all the harmonic hijinks. In this last time through the A section we have a familiar alternative pattern: descending II-V's: Am7 D7 Gm C7. It's too heavy to call this a key modulation (for one measure!). I'd just call it a common pattern, or elaboration: a Dm7 was promoted to D7 to make the harmony a little more interesting. Hit that F# and all is well.
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I'm an older theory guy too, and I would always use upper and lower case to signify chord type...just habit.
Sailor
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Yes I think I did get it backwards... thank you. I actually learned something important there. Originally Posted by fep
Still, I think it is an important point that Reg makes regarding the chord name. When I read a chart, I often change the name of the chord, not to capture the physical chord form or the voicing, but rather to clarify its function and implied scale. This is the correct way to communicate in jazz -IMO.
Anyway, I see we have decided to use the Real Book changes, so I will not divert attention any further.
Last edited by Jazzaluk; 12-02-2010 at 05:55 PM.
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Good evening, fep... Originally Posted by fep
Hold down 'Alt' and tap '0216' on the number pad (for a PC; not sure for Apple...).
Ø
Hope this helps.Last edited by Dad3353; 12-02-2010 at 05:57 PM.
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Looks like good starting point except the F13b9, I dig the chord, but I don't believe the original modal interchanges to Harmonic Maj. for one bar, best to leave as standard II- V of temporary key, Bb. One other small point for the Last "A"... the 5th bar, A-7 to D7, is not really a modulation, is thought of as II- V of G- or II-. Typically with II- V's you simple bracket and use either a solid arrow going to target chord, in this case the G-7, and as I said earlier the Bb7 would usually only have a dotted arrow going to target chord, A-7. The dotted arrow represents sub-dom. function, as opposed to a solid arrow meaning dom. function. But that technique is from berklee in the 60's and 70's , and is not used universal... although is by far simplest. It's pretty hard to go anywhere and not see a version of. So
1) no F13b9
2) no modulation in last A section, simply a II- V of II-
Sorry I have late gig tonight... but will make video of playing analysis tomorrow.
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Hi Jay, BigDaddy, Reg...
All good stuff! Looking at the chord progression based on your comments, I can see a couple of things. As BigDaddy says, there are the descending IIm-Vs... and then I seee that we sort of descend diatonically from the C7 through Bb7 through Am7 (+D7) through Gm7 (+C7) to arrive at the Fmaj7... I personally like this a lot except for doing it fast!
My question is in addition to "hitting that F#" do you guys have any other suggestions for improvising over that descent other than just a lick per chord? In the event that Reg is unavailable, do you think he is suggesting that given the ease of using a IIm arpeggio over the IIm-V, that we stay either with that, a Gm7 arp, or even stay with a G Dorian to keep it simple?
Obviously, this question relates more to those amongst us who are looking for the first steps to constructing solos than those who can easily handle these changes :-)
Finally, I assume that if we drop that F13b9 (lovely chord) we should take a more standard V7?
Cheers.
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I haven't had time to really practice this, but here is a quick take I did
missJ.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage
I tried to target as many chord tones but it was pretty difficult on this speed, so most of the imrov is done via the key center approach.
(I'm in the process of mixing the 2 approaches)
As for the key center approach on this tune there is a focus in outlining the change from F major to Bb major as there is only 1 note difference between them.
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Very nice Jay. I truly understand the challenge of targetting chord tones - I can't handle that at all at the moment. But you have some very nice lines there using the key centre approach. I'm also working on that but am not sure that I'll be able to come up with anything postable!
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Ok, I've incorporated the changes suggested above, and I've also simplified the scale fingering charts in the basis that if we need to use such a chart, we probably need less information :-)
I'll incorporate any more advanced analysis when it is offered...
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Hi Tony, Originally Posted by tonyknight
I know you weren't asking me but I'm going to take a stab at your question...
Improvising over the |A-7 D7| G-7 C7 | Fmaj7 at mm.23-24
These are II V I progressions. So one approach is to go to your arsenal of II V I phrases/licks/tricks. (I don't actually have an arsenal, more like a small quiver but I'm working on expanding my vocabulary)
Another approach is to just play over either the II or the V. Some famous musicians often use this approach. Pat Martino will often just play over the II, so instead of playing lines over |A-7 D7|, he'll just play and think A-7 lines over both chords (and as an aside he often uses melodic minor). I read this in a Pat Martino interview.
Another approach, I've been playing around with playing thinking lines over this:
Band is playing |A-7 D7| G-7 C7 |
I'm thinking |A-7 Ab-7| G-7 Gb7|
Edit, I was playing around with this and wrote up some examples:
Uploaded with ImageShack.usLast edited by fep; 12-03-2010 at 11:11 AM.
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Is this refered to as using the tri tone substitutions? Originally Posted by fep
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The Gb7 is, but the Abm7 technically is not. I believe I would have needed to use Ab7 instead of Abm7 for it to be a tri tone sub. Originally Posted by Gramps
But, I was just simple thinking move the roots down chromatically and create a chord progression with those roots that works to my ear.Last edited by fep; 12-03-2010 at 11:17 AM.
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Hey Jayx123... Very cool, really, there were two parts I really started to hear you playing...second time through the bridge, I heard you start to use a bluesy lick, not that I like the actual blues lick, but you sounded like you were actually talking, rather than trying to play chord tones or whatever, and towards the end you setup a rhythmic lick and stayed with it for a while, you were starting to dig in and talk. My point is very simple, this tune is about as easy as you get in jazz... You need something, some aspect of soloing to repeat so we as the listener have something to hang on to while we listen, you know what your trying to say, we don't until you say it. We all know what the chord tones, screw all the BS... think or hear a less than two bar idea and try and get it out, you don't need to fill all the space, and then try on the next two bars to play a different version of or something simple but will function as an answer. Then again on next four bars do it again, hopefully better, to set up the 2nd "A". Do it again, you'll start to hear and feel what your playing... The Bridge can be approached the same way, but usually is though of as break of pattern, Maybe no answer, simple two bar phrases. I know the tonal center changes, ok... keep the idea simple, play what ever you have control of with changing keys. Then on your last "A" you have set us up to wanting to hear original idea with same call and answer pattern, then either relax at end and start over, or if your ready raise the complexity up dig in... Still nice job. you sound like you can play through changes, and have more than enough chops. I think it's better at this stage to keep it harmonically simple... so I don't think you need my notes per harmonic area BS. You sound like you know/hear what correct. Best Reg
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No technically? You have my permission to call it a tritone sub. Originally Posted by fep
At first, tritone subs where just dom-for-dom, but it's expanded since.
You could have substituted Ab7 for D7, too: Am7 Ab7 Gm7 Gb7.
Notice, too, that "simply thinking 'move the roots down chromatically'" and tritone subs are the same thing, when the original chords are going 'round the circle of 5ths.
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Hey Jay, Originally Posted by jayx123
I'm digging your recording. Great tone, rhythm, and lines. My only critique, is - sounds really good. Keep it up, you've got talent.
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