The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I looked around and have not been able to find a solid answer to this yet.

    I am doing inversions and I remember hearing a long time ago that you
    should include the 5 in a major 9 chord? I like using chords with the 1 and
    or the 5th omitted.

    While we are at it.. are there certain other chords that sort of require
    you to include the 5th?


    Thanks!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    No, not really. Why would it be do you think, more than any other chord?

    I you play an Em7 after your 5thless Cma9 then i guess all ballparks are covered in a way.

    Obviously guitar likes the 5thless option because it allows more ma9 voicing possibilities.

  4. #3

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    3579 or 1379 are good voicings for this chord on the guitar, it seems to me.

  5. #4

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    Since we only have 4 fingers, as we begin playing chords beyond 7th chords, often times a note has to be dropped. The 5th is almost always the first to go. The 3rd and 7th are the most important chord tones, then you have whatever extension you are going for, in this case a 9th.

    After that, the root becomes expendable also. The bass player is gonna be hitting that often enough, and even if you are playing solo, a rootless chord is going to imply the root anyway. So, feel free to drop 5ths and roots.

  6. #5
    Thank you!

  7. #6

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    3795 or 3R95 is another good voicing.

  8. #7

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    5793? Like:

    FMAj9: xx.10.985

    I like it more for the close voicing than the presence of the 5th, if I can split hairs.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    While we are at it.. are there certain other chords that sort of require
    you to include the 5th?
    any chord with an altered fifth, as well as Maj6 and Min6 chords require the 5th to be heard as intended, other than that, take it or leave it.

  10. #9

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    5th's aren't necessary unless they are altered then may want to include them. Also if you have a bass player the root isn't necessary. 3rd and 7th (or 6th) are your identity notes. After that is up to you and the style of music you're playing.

    You listen to great rhythm player and they tend to use smaller voicings and focus on voicing leading.

  11. #10

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    The underlying question is just what is necessary to state or imply a chord.

    In a band context the guitar is not the only contributing factor to the harmony.

    How little can you play and still imagine the implied harmony?
    How much does a listener (including band members) need to hear?
    What does the 5th add to the sound?
    What sounds do you enjoy or find useful?

    Here's a bunch of 3 note variations. How complete does each one sound?
    Voice them high enough to keep the root function clear.

    CDE
    CDG
    CDB
    CED
    CGD
    CBD
    DEG
    DEB
    DEC
    DGB
    DGC
    DGE
    DBC
    DBE
    DBG
    DCE
    DCG
    DCB
    EGD
    EBD
    ECD
    EDG
    EDB
    EDC
    GBD
    GCD
    GDE
    GDC
    GDB
    BCD
    BDE
    BDG
    BDC

    For any 4 note voicing of 13579 without the 5th use inversions of the chords fumblefingers mentioned:
    1379
    3579

    and also
    1579
    Last edited by bako; 09-26-2010 at 11:55 AM.

  12. #11

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    HI, The 5th is a primary part of the overtone series (harmonic analysis -Harvard Dictionary of Music ) thus the term Dominant. Without getting too complicated I would like to try to give you a reason why you can drop off intervals (parts of chords). Once you have created a tonal center for a listener ( that could be yourself ) you have established a mental and emotional foundation, this is the Root of the key. Once established, all chords, single melody lines etc relate to the tone you have used for your home base. If you are playing a C major chord and the other notes you are using in melody lines and chords are D E F G A B etc you obviously are in the key of C major. ( relative A minor) simply put:
    Play a note and the brain remembers. Play C E G the brain hears C major. (c-e = mj 3rd ) ( c-g= perfect 5th ) play C E the interval of a major 3rd and the brain still hears a C major chord because the G is part of the overtone series of C. Play C, and all of the notes of its overtone series are heard, most of all the G or dominate tone. If you play a chord (triad) and omit the 3rd, the ear cannot determine either major or minor unless there is an established tonal center. If you add intervals of a 6th, 7th or compound intervals of a 9th 11th 13th you once again create impressions of major or minor depending on the relationship to the tonic ( ROOT ) The chord functions of a major scale are as follows. Root (1) is major, 2nd is minor, 3rd is minor , 4th is major, 5th is major, 6th is minor, 7th is diminished. ( Get a good bass player! )
    Last edited by Stephan Leigh Saunders sr; 09-26-2010 at 10:47 AM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephan Leigh Saunders sr
    ( Get a good bass player! )
    word

  14. #13

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    If the 5th is in the melody, then the answer would be "yes, most definitely!"

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by epiemperor
    If the 5th is in the melody, then the answer would be "yes, most definitely!"
    Nay Nay and thrice nay, we do not need the 5th in the melody.

  16. #15

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    If everyone understood jazz theory... we wouldn't need to play that many chord tones... but they don't. My rule of thumb has always be aware of context... and if the chord progression is simply standard changes, normal function and analysis, I play what ever I want and try and be musical, ( from harmonic content )The Rt, 3rd, 5th and 7th are implied. When there is a different chord tone or tension than what would be normally implied in a situation... because of context (melody etc...) I make a choice as to whether I should play that chord tone or tension. Most of these situations are standard, I really don't need to think about it. Example could be your playing progression with a bunch of min. chords, but the melody by way of modal interchange keeps pulling from Dorian... in a situation where usually Aeolian would be used, should you help imply... Or even better how about B-7 E7, A-7 D7, G... In jazz typically that B-7 E7 is not III- to V7/II... Usually really is II-7b5 V7alt of target chord, A-7. Not always, but more so than not and the 5ths would need to be spelled or played to imply your choice. And what about Min 7th chords... Rt, 3rd, 5th and 7ths leave a lot to be determined ... And while being aware of all of this we do need to make choices to imply or not. Sometimes a simple counter line will accompany or imply better than chords...
    To the question... 5ths in Maj9th chords... Is very important if pulling from bIII of Har. Min. or Mel. Min. or bVI of Har. Maj.... Best Reg

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    If everyone understood jazz theory... we wouldn't need to play that many chord tones... but they don't. My rule of thumb has always be aware of context... and if the chord progression is simply standard changes, normal function and analysis, I play what ever I want and try and be musical, ( from harmonic content )The Rt, 3rd, 5th and 7th are implied. When there is a different chord tone or tension than what would be normally implied in a situation... because of context (melody etc...) I make a choice as to whether I should play that chord tone or tension. Most of these situations are standard, I really don't need to think about it. Example could be your playing progression with a bunch of min. chords, but the melody by way of modal interchange keeps pulling from Dorian... in a situation where usually Aeolian would be used, should you help imply... Or even better how about B-7 E7, A-7 D7, G... In jazz typically that B-7 E7 is not III- to V7/II... Usually really is II-7b5 V7alt of target chord, A-7. Not always, but more so than not and the 5ths would need to be spelled or played to imply your choice. And what about Min 7th chords... Rt, 3rd, 5th and 7ths leave a lot to be determined ... And while being aware of all of this we do need to make choices to imply or not. Sometimes a simple counter line will accompany or imply better than chords...
    To the question... 5ths in Maj9th chords... Is very important if pulling from bIII of Har. Min. or Mel. Min. or bVI of Har. Maj.... Best Reg
    Lovely post, Reg.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    5th's aren't necessary unless they are altered then may want to include them. Also if you have a bass player the root isn't necessary. 3rd and 7th (or 6th) are your identity notes. After that is up to you and the style of music you're playing.

    You listen to great rhythm player and they tend to use smaller voicings and focus on voicing leading.
    Totally agree. 5ths can safely be omitted whether they are altered or not. Often the root can be omitted. Higher extensions of dominant chords can also be safely omitted when comping. For swing rhythm comping no other than the 6, 7 and maj7 are used.

    The fewer notes you play, the easier it is to have a good voice leading. Freddie Green often played long strings of "one note chords", and it worked very well. Guitarists too often think "vertically" (up and down the extensions of the individual chord") instead of "horizontally" (voice leading). The basic chord progressions of many standard tunes are very beautiful and logical in themselves. Spicing them with higher extensions will often just obscure that beauty.

    The added bonus of the smaller chords is that they are easier to finger resulting in smoother playing. You will also be able to handle a higher string action which will give you a cleaner sound and a wider dynamic range.

  19. #18

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    A Maj9b5 is a nice ending chord, especially if you build a line over it from a Bm pentatonic.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
    A Maj9b5 is a nice ending chord, especially if you build a line over it from a Bm pentatonic.
    Wouldn't that be A Ma9#11 not b5 then try a G# minor pentatonic against it.

  21. #20

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    Oops, I goofed and forgot to put in "CM7b5" in my original post.

    So the Bm pentatonic would work, but only if I had communicated what key I was in.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
    Oops, I goofed and forgot to put in "CM7b5" in my original post.

    So the Bm pentatonic would work, but only if I had communicated what key I was in.
    Brian,

    It's a little more on the money if ya call it a #11 because a 5th is assumed in the scale or chord.

    Cheers fella,

    Mike.

  23. #22

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    Thanks Mike. Street learning will only get a guy so far.
    #11 it shall be forever.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Brian,

    It's a little more on the money if ya call it a #11 because a 5th is assumed in the scale or chord.

    Cheers fella,

    Mike.
    Thank you Reg