Dmin7 G7b9 CMaj7 -- what do you do over that 7b9?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That recent thread about improvising over a E7 resolving to Amin, got me thinking about the other case: a 7b9 chord resolving to a major chord. What ideas do you have for improvising over G7b9 to CMaj7?

Sometimes, I admit it, I ignore the b9 and just think "G7".

Other times, I take the mixolydian and simply flat that 9:
G Ab B C D E F G
Because of the whistling augmented second gap (Ab->B) I might add the Bb as a passing tone or filler, too.

I don't usually reach for a diminished scale or the G altered because that sounds too far from the C major tonality to me. Okay, maybe a little bit of the altered scale. It's addictive!

[jeffstocksmusic]

What ideas do you have for improvising over G7b9 to CMaj7?

It would likely depend on the context, the tune, the band, etc. However, since you asked....

I am all about triad pairs/hexatonics right now so I would probably look at that angle. You could use Db major and Eb major triads or the scale that comes from combining them. My personal favorite would be the Bb major and Ab minor pair.

Normal, traditional scale stuff works fine, diminished or diminished whole tone, depending on whether you want a natural or flat 13.

Triads from the diminished scale are always nice, especially using minor ones in some type of spread/open voicing (Gmin,Bbmin, Dbmin, Emin). I have lots of lines jotted down based on this idea, grouping them in odd ways.

I have been shedding building clusters from melodic minor and using them over altered chords. Mostly they are based on shapes moved through the scale. Nothing fancy, but it is an interesting sound. Example would be a Ab, B, Db (on the D, G, B strings), moving that 'shape' through the scale either as lines or as chords. You can generate some really cool stuff using this concept.

Pentatonics can be useful...Bb minor pentatonic being probably first on the list. This resolves nicely to B minor over the Cmaj7 for a lydian sound. I haven't shedded this sound nearly enough.....

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Nice post, Jeff. I'm going to have to digest that and come back with some questions.

Actually, here's one: how do you come up with triad pairs? Any handy formulas? I thought the basic one was the original triad + any other triad

[jeffstocksmusic]

Actually, here's one: how do you come up with triad pairs? Any handy formulas? I thought the basic one was the original triad + any other triad

I cheated! I bought Jerry Bergonzi and Walt Weiskopf's books!

The 'rule' is to pick two triads (maj/min/dim/aug) that don't share notes and either play them as pairs or create a hybrid scale from them. I seem to default to playing them as pairs rather than using the scale version, but I am working on it! It just takes so much time to shed this stuff and I have a newborn at home now. Nothing like sneaking in 10 minutes between screaming fits.

Anyway, the Db/Eb major comes from the Ab melodic minor scale. You could conceivably use any two triads from that scale that don't share notes (Ab min/Bbmin for example).

For an inside sound over dominant chords, you could use F maj and G maj triads. This pair just comes from the C major scale.

The Bbmaj/Abmin pair is one I stumbled on when I was writing an etude and was trying to solve a voice-leading problem.

Bergonzi's book literally has every possible set of pairs you can devise, plus some usage suggestions. I honestly have scratched the surface with it and probably won't ever absorb 1/10000000th of it. But, it is good for seeing things differently.

[bako]

question to answer a question?

What G7 altered chord voicings (that include b9) do you like resolving to Cma7?

Behind every voicing that you like is a corresponding collection of notes to reflect that sound.

[bako]

Veering slightly nerdy and off topic but in relation to the ideas Jeff brought up.

Modal pairs combining alternately Jeff's G altered cluster chord scale and a similar one derived from G lydian dominant

Ab Cb Db//A C# D
Bb Db Eb// B D E
Cb Eb F// C# E F
Db F G// D F G
Eb G Ab// E G A
F Ab Bb// F A B
G Bb Cb// G B C#
Ab Cb Db//

Congratulations on your newborn.

[jeffstocksmusic]

Modal pairs combining alternately Jeff's G altered cluster chord scale and a similar one derived from G lydian dominant

Dude, that is a killer idea. Kind of like killing two birds with one very hip stone. Thanks for posting that. Can't wait to hit the shed w/ that idea.

One thing I will say about this 'cluster' approach is that it is actually a quick way to learn scales. You are basically learning them on three strings at once....

[randalljazz]

embellished chord tones and hit the b9 > 5 resolution...

[mr. beaumont]

C harmonic minor.

Or a Db7 idea., knowing I'll touch that Ab in there somewhere--and then there's numerous ways to bring it back to a C chord tone...

Dominants are fun, you can get away with so much as long as you resolve nicely...

[jimbopper]

charlie parker had eight ways of arpeggiating a V7b9 chord to resolve to a I chord or a i chord.

try the following eighth not sequence: F, Eb, D, C, B, D, F, Ab, G.

the B, D, F, Ab is the arpeggio of G7b9 starting on the third, ending on the b9 and resolves to the fifth of Cmaj.

after descending to the B you could go up a minor third to the D and continue arpeggiating up or you could could down a 6th and then arpeggiate up.

sounds like chas, no?

[M-ster]

... Other times, I take the mixolydian and simply flat that 9:
G Ab B C D E F G

Note that this (above) is C harmonic major. I suggest you can also go with double diminished, Ab melodic minor, and F melodic minor (no, really ... try it).

C harmonic major provides your b9 and natural 13 (on the G7).

Double diminished and F melodic minor provide both b9 and #9 with the natural 13.

Ab melodic minor provides your fully altered sound, so b9 and #9, but with b13 (and, yes, b5, too).

[jimbopper]

charlie parker had eight ways of arpeggiating a V7b9 chord to resolve to a I chord or a i chord.

try the following eighth not sequence: F, Eb, D, C, B, D, F, Ab, G.

the B, D, F, Ab is the arpeggio of G7b9 starting on the third, ending on the b9 and resolves to the fifth of Cmaj.

after descending to the B you could go up a minor third to the D and continue arpeggiating up or you could could down a 6th and then arpeggiate up.

sounds like chas, no?

see attached...

[max_power]

Sometimes, I admit it, I ignore the b9 and just think "G7".

There are a couple of things you need to keep in mind when chords are specifically written with extensions:

1) It's okay if you don't play the extensions. A G7b9 chord is still a G7 chord.
2) HOWEVER, If the chord is written as a b9 chord, it's because the composer wants you to emphasize that extension. So, while it's okay not to play it, you probably should, at least some of the time.
3) You don't have to play the b9 over a G7b9 chord, but you can't ignore it either, i.e. if you simply decide to use G mixolydian over a G7b9, the natural 9 is going to clash.

Also, it's good practice to treat ALL of the V chords you encounter as b9s. Once you're comfortable with that, practice treating all V chords as b13s. It makes your lines sound more interesting than just using the mixolydian mode.

[docbop]

Also, it's good practice to treat ALL of the V chords you encounter as b9s. Once you're comfortable with that, practice treating all V chords as b13s. It makes your lines sound more interesting than just using the mixolydian mode.

Including non-resolving V7's?

[Jaffey]

The C harmonic minor works well over the G7b9. All you have to do from there is go to a C major tonality. OR, just play in D dorian and when G7b9 comes up, just play the Ab resolving to the G (the fifth of the C chord).

[max_power]

Including non-resolving V7's?

No, I guess not. But depending on what follows the V, it might still be of use.

[backliner]

All that stuff goes by too fast for me.

By the time I recognise a ii-V-I and remember a diminished idea, it's too late.

I just use The Demented scale for everything.

I don't get called much, but I do show up on time.

[paynow]

I don't get called much, but I do show up on time.

LOL!

That is a musical skill which is most underrated.

[docbop]

All that stuff goes by too fast for me.

By the time I recognise a ii-V-I and remember a diminished idea, it's too late.

I just use The Demented scale for everything.

I don't get called much, but I do show up on time.

Then slow down the tempo this is stuff you work on in woodshed till second nature. On the bandstand or even at a jam you don't think you play by habits created in practice.

[sixfingers]

It would depend on the context to me too, as stated by others.
Sometimes I might go for any melodic line that resolve into the I , ( sometimes I might be happier not resolving it to the I tonality before the bar after the I depending upon the progression. )


Sometimes I find myself playing bluesy phrases including chromatic steps between the b3 and the 5, and you could say either it having a pentatonic feeling with the 6 or rural blues with 7. If that makes sense?
For this 'exmple' maybe I can call it pentatonic* and blues* even if it is not a matter of playing only scale notes.

So on the V7b9 -I I could play F pentatonic* -E blues*, Or I could play F blues*-E blues* (creates initially a stronger desire to resolution imo) or I play E blues*-E blues*

I appologize if it is expressed too unorthodox to make sense, maybe hearin it is the best.

[Reg]

Context... always, but there is probable some order of what are the most common choices are...The tri-tone, F and B resolving to E and C is almost implied whether played or not. The b9 of G7b9, (Ab) resolving to G, the 5th of Cmaj. is pretty strong as Randall mentioned. I actually hear G7b9 more as a Db7#11 or sub-V of Cmaj7 when G7b9 is played. Anyway... so when soloing what are we trying to do... in this example as least.
Usually playing something more on the dissonant side resolving to something consonant. There are levels of what that can be, but the concept is pretty standard. Because our ears are so trained to hear this basic Dominant cadence or resolution, ( V- I ), depending on context... we have the freedom to stretch our choices of what to play. The implied resolutions act almost as a basic harmonic pedal, it's pretty hard to screw it up... ( I've trashed it, being a little to creative)
This the part where just using the ear doesn't cover all the possibilities... you can trial and error and come up with, depending on your level of musicianship, a lot of working systems or methodologies of expressing your self, but because of this pedal effect, any organizational system, which basically implies some sort of harmonic movement will work. I'm using the word "work" very loosely. Many believe because they understand what there doing... it works... I'm alright with that. So I'm back to the many levels of what works... very personal. But in musical situations there are standard choices that are implied. Usually it's our job as a musician to recognize or hear these choices. Best Reg