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Hi
I've just started to learn jazz guitar, although I've been playing 'regular' guitar for some time. I'm working through a book called 'Exploring jazz guitar' by Phil Capone, but I'm a bit confused !
The early part of the book takes you through the Aeolian mode in the key of C - so I guess this is the Am scale ?
He then goes on to the Dorian mode, but the notes he shows to make up the mode are A, B, C, D, E, F# and G. I don't understand why this scale has a F# rather than an F natural ?
I thought that the 6 modes are the same scale notes, but just starting from a different place - in other words the dorian mode should have the same scale notes as the Aeolian or any other mode for that matter - assuming the underlying key is the same.
I hope I've explained that properly.
Can someone please help me to understand this ?
Great site by the way !
Andy
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09-03-2010 02:35 PM
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Dorian and Aeolian come from different 7 note collections
the A Dorian scale is based upon the G major scale (starting on it's 2nd pitch, A) while the A Aeolian Scale is based upon the C Major scale (starting upon it's 6th note, A).
That's why they have a different note between the two scales. You have to refer back to the parent scale they come from in order to apply the concept you are getting confused about.
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I'm guessing the problem is about knowing which note is the root of the scale.
The scale you show has one sharp (F#), which implies the key of G.
The A Dorian scale starts on A and includes F#, but no other sharps or flats.
Perhaps, the book is referring to A dorian.
A Dorian could also be derived using the rule: flat the 3rd and 7th note of the A major scale. The A major scale is:: A B C# D E F# G# A
If you flat the 3rd and 7th notrd, you get A Dorian: A B C D E F# G A. And, yes, these are the notes of the G major Scale.
The Aeolian mode in the key of C is called "A Aeolian"; and you're right that it includes the notes from the key of C (no sharps or flats).
So the book may be talking about A Aeolian (key of C) and A Dorian (key of G).
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I don't know from that book, but if he starts you with Aeolian and lays the modes on thick ... I'm not digging it.
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D dorian contain the notes D E F G A B C, A dorian contain contain the notes A B C D E F# G.
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There are 2 distinct approaches to generate modes.
Derivative- Scale inversions of the parent scale
Scale:C Major
Ionian-----CDEFGABC
Dorian-----DEFGABCD
Phrygian---EFGABCDE
Lydian------FGABCDEF
Mixolydian-GABCDEFG
Aeolian-----ABCDEFGA
Locrian-----BCDEFGAB
Parallel-A set of intervallic formulas applied to a Major Scale.
All formulas applied to a C Major Scale:
(each mode has a different parent scale indicated in parenthesis to the right)
12345678--------CDEFGABC------------(C Major)
12b3456b78------CDEbFGABbC---------(Bb Major)
1b2b345b6b78----CDbEbFGAbBbC------(Ab Major)
123#45678--------CDEF#GABC---------(G Major)
123456b78---------CDEFGABbC---------(F Major)
12b345b6b78------CDEbFGAbBbC-------(Eb Major)
1b2b34b5b6b78---CDbEbFGbAbBbC-----(Db Major)
Most confusion occurs when you try to apply Derivative thinking to a Parallel methodology or Parallel thinking to a Derivative methodology. Once you get that straight the rest is easy.
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Bako - best post ever on this topic.
The problem is that it often takes a while for people to realize the distinction you are making. I didn't get it until I finally sat down with an excel spreadsheet and derived the modes myself and began to see what was going on.
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Ah right - that's much clearer ! Thanks guys.
So he's teaching me the A Aeolian and then the A Dorian modes ?
He doesn't explain that at all.
I'm frightened.....I'm only on page 17 of about 250 pages.
I IV V straight up rock was much easier than this
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A basic 2 chord vamp for A dorian would be Am7 to D7,and one for A aeolian would be Am7 to Dm7. The difference being the F and the F# in the D chords.
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Same here. I like Jimmy Bruno's approach to modes...........don't bother with them.
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I really like jimmy's approach too,I just picked his no nonsense jazz guitar dvd,and it's fantastic!Robert Conti is another great jazz guitarist that doesn't think in terms of modes.
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You'll find many books where the modes are so briefly explained!!! Originally Posted by lasagne
Ah right - that's much clearer ! Thanks guys.
So he's teaching me the A Aeolian and then the A Dorian modes ?
He doesn't explain that at all.
I'm frightened.....I'm only on page 17 of about 250 pages.
I IV V straight up rock was much easier than this
I also had to sit down and make the convertion to the modes and it took me some time. With bako's schema it looks pretty easy but when one has no idea and only gets so little information it's a real puzzle.
There's an easy way to find the root of each tonality that gives way to the modes, and that is to invert de scale formula in an ascending way. So if normally it's 1w2w3h4w5w6w7h8 do it the other way around:
<--8h7w6w5w4h3w2w1<---
So in the natural scale C is the first mode Ionian and it's the first note of the mode. Descend one tone and you'll be in Bb and that's the tonality that gives you the second mode Dorian and C will be the second note of this tonality. Descend one more tone and you'll be in Ab and that's the tonality that gives you the 3rd mode Phrygian and C will be the 3rd note of the mode. Descend 1 semitone and you'll be in G wich is the tonality that gives you the 4rth mode Lydian and C will be the 4rth note of the tonality. Descend one more tone and you'll be in F wich is the tonality that gives you the 5th mode Mixolydian and C will be the 5th note of the tonality. Descend one more tone and you'll be in Eb wich is the tonality that gives you the 6th mode Aeolian and C will be the 6th note. Descend one more tone and you'll be in Db wich is the tonality that gives you the 7th mode Locrian and C will be the 7th note. And finally descend another semitone and you'll be again in C, Ionian.
If we take bako's scheme we get this:
12345678-------------CDEFGABC-------(C Major)
12b3456b78---------CDEbFGABbC------(Bb Major)
1b2b345b6b78-----CDbEbFGAbBbC------(Ab Major)
123#45678--------CDEF#GABC---------(G Major)
123456b78---------CDEFGABbC---------(F Major)
12b345b6b78------CDEbFGAbBbC-------(Eb Major)
1b2b34b5b6b78---CDbEbFGbAbBbC------(Db Major)
We get the roots in a from left down to the right diagonal.
Learn the intervals as well by heart 'cause they are valid for both the modes and all the chords in the scale.
Don't get discouraged, once you know this you'll master the modes and all the chords of the scale. If you want to learn another scale the process will be the same.
My 2 cents.
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Sorry, I meant to invert the scale formula in a descending way. Originally Posted by Claudi
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I look at the modes a little differently, I relate them to the chord scale they come from in C major you have Cmaj7,Dmin7,Emin7,Fmaj7,G7 Amin7,and Bmin7b5, which correspond to Ionian,Dorian,Phyrgian,Lydian,Mixolydian,Aeolian,a nd Locrian,they all contain the same notes as a plain old C major scale or an A natural minor scale,so when one of these chords are encountered I can basically play a C major scale,while emphasizing the chord tones.I have done some woodshedding on the applications of modes over altered and extended chords,the use of melodic minor and harmonic minor modes,which was quite helpful,I think the bottom line is to copy solos by the greats of jazz if you want to learn the vocabulary of jazz.There are plenty of excellent transcription books out there,and you can learn about modes while your'e learning great solo!
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I agree with your point milkmannnv, but I believe you're missing some choices. It's just my opinion though I think that what you do with the modes is quite alright.
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There are 2 really great Don Mock books out there that cover the melodic minor & harmonic minor scales and their modes,the best part about them is that he plays a lot of solos using them,and you can hear them on the cd.
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Not to get off the subject of modes,but this website is AWESOME!!! I didn't realize it was so packed with great info,and free transcriptions,until I registred for the forum today!I feel like I found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!Thank's a lot!
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Welcome to the forum then, mate!
Most of the theory I know I achieved it from this forum. I registered here about 2 and 1/2 years ago. It's a drug!
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understandable. how much "modal" jazz do they play? not that either player can't play whatever they want, especially JB, but is that their orientation/calling card? seems to me that these guys play tunes with lots of changes as opposed to the modal style. Originally Posted by milkmannnv
and setting those players/educators aside, when anyone is starting to learn to play changes, why would we want them to focus on modes?
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Bako's post was great start and easy at see, the next step would be to become aware of the characteristic notes and interval resolutions which define, or make each mode derived from major scale. Then move on to the rest of the scales. Best Reg
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Harmonic and melodic use of modal organizational implications and modal interchange are two of the major building blocks of jazz composition and improvisation. I wouldn't wait too long... best Reg Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Years ago I took George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept book out of the library. It was a bit over my head at the time because he had reoriented all the names of modes around the idea of Lydian being prime and not the Ionian. The one powerful thing that I took away from reading his book was that scales and modes collectively contained all the intervals of the chromatic scale. Each one was a manageable snapshot view that could be connected to a particular chord type with certain extensions. As Reg points out, it will take more than the major scale to address all the various harmonies of jazz although the major scale itself does contain every interval.
Under the influence of Indian music I practice(d) with a drone or a pedal tone and improvise melodies and harmonies from the notes of each mode.
I make as much music as I am able from the particular set of notes. Learning intervals in this context, connected to real harmonies taught me to hear the difference between a Ma6 or b6 , a Ma2 or b2, a b7 or Ma7 against a minor chord. Each mode has it's own unique combination of intervals. Collectively they can teach us the harmonic elements of the chromatic scale in an organized way.
Another common guitarist error in understanding modes is the idea that each one is connected to certain fingerings that start on the root of that mode.
Those fingerings are simply scale inversions that allow us to play the scale anywhere on the guitar.
The Dm harmony is created by the rhythm section and it matters not where you are playing your C Major scale. In this context I could play a Cma7 arpeggio for the entire duration of the Dm and the effect is still Dorian. If we are playing a solo melody unaccompanied then it is necessary to feature the basic chord tones more prominently for the listener to grasp the underlying harmony.
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Modes and Scales are innocent until you prove them guilty.
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Let's put the modes to work then, play G dorian mode over Emin7b5 for 1 bar, Bb melodic minor over A7 for 1 bar, and F Ionian mode over Dmin7 for 2 bars.Repeat as necessary,and try to use only the G,B,and high E strings.
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And that is exactly my point. Originally Posted by milkmannnv
It's the lack of understanding, not the materials themselves.
Why G dorian? Why not E lochrian?
Why Bb melodic min? Why not A altered?
Why F ionian? Why not D Aeolian or Dorian?
Think from the root of the chord. Until you don't have to think. Just hear and feel.
Modal thinking is just another 'way'. In of itself it is neither useless or harmless or restricting or illuminating.
It's up to you to search it out, walk toward it, or not.
Why use the G and B strings? Let's just do it on the top string..
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