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I'm not sure we all understand model concepts... lets talk basics... Key of "C", I'll start with 2nd degree or "D", since I think that's where this thread started.
D dorian, we all know the scale... When we decide to call this collection of notes a mode, rather than a scale, we imply a different harmonic controlling system. For now, we'll keep this modal concept simple... Diatonic. The I chord is always tonic and the most important chord in our new modal world and each of the rest of the chords built on each scale degree of D dorian... is a chord on it's own... All modes have a characteristic pitch, (as we all know), in our D dorian example this pitch would be the 6th degree or "B". So in our D dorian modal world, there are chords with this characteristic pitch and those without.
D-7 tonic chord
E-7 has characteristic chord tone
Fmaj7 no characteristic chord tone
G7 Has C.C.T. but has Tri-tone and will strongly imply Cmaj.
A-7 No C.C.T.
B-7b5 Has C.C.T. but also has Tri-tone and will also strongly imply Cmaj.
Cmaj7 Has C.C.T.
In modal music, I'm talking about Jazz, not church modes or rhythmic modes of 13th century, not 19th and 20th century tonal modal idiom desires to imitate tonal language of 16th century sacred music, folksong having modal features or composers reactions against traditional classical harmony... jazz usage.... were trying to imply or force a chord to be tonic in nature, be the harmonic center of our tonal world. There are many functional forces which force intervals and pitches to stay put or resolve to more stable harmonic collections... If you want more info. check out "Acoustics", the science which deals with the physical aspects of music, Bartholomew's "Acoustics of Music", or Lowerys, "A Guide to Musical Acoustics".
In our example of D dorian, the G7 and the B-7b5 chords have the all powerful Tri-tone which very strongly implies the key of C maj. So if we were trying to imply D dorian we would stay away from those two chords, or be careful how we use them. We would imply our mode, D dorian by calling chords with our characteristic pitch, ( B ), our cadence chords, example of cadence would be...
E-7 to D-7 II-7 to I-7
Cmaj7 to D-7 VIImaj7 to I-7
This is only the starting point of what is implied by calling something modal and is much more useful if you take the time to write out all the examples on your own, rather than be told... but if anyone wants more constructive or working details or help in understanding all the modes, every scale can have modal implication, I'll gladly try... Best Reg ( watch for Jazz Police)
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09-06-2010 12:35 PM
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Lovely post.
Originally Posted by Reg
Yep, lots of confusion where modes are concerned.
Adapting modal thinking to more Standard Jazz Progressions always seems to confuse folks.
I like to think of them as parallels to the chords. Fm7 Bbm7 Eb7 Abma7 Dbma7 suggests a series of sounds that are intrinsic to each chord ie Aeolian, Dorian, Mixolydian, Ionian, and Lydian.
That's what i love about it. Dbma7 in that context would sound hard with a 4th but once you understand each of the characteristic notes that are intrinsic to each mode you can play about with those characteristics to give more tension, if so desired.
But i think it's important to really understand those characteristics.
And i totally agree, people should really give these things a chance for themselves, rather than just take our, or anybody else's, word for it.Last edited by mike walker; 09-06-2010 at 06:31 PM.
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Ok guys i put this together before reg and mikes posts so be patient.Does the following track fall into the modal or key based camp.
Cheers tom
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Hey oilywrag... how goes... is this a test... Nice track, I like the use of bIIIsus chord to imply cadence and use of characteristic note, and then you go ahead and imply V chord, which make for a little ambiguity, if that's what your doing. So is this Polytonal-unimodal or polymodal-unitonal... just having fun...Again modal methodologies are simple compositional or improvisational tools and I'm trying to help those who don't have an understanding of how and why they work, which is only the first step and obviously just one of the many techniques used in jazz. I try and accomplish this using musical terminology some what knowledgeably in hope that others gain from my too many years of involvement with music. I've been explaining modal concepts for over thirty years... again cool track, just listen briefly, so I probable missed things... Best Reg
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Hi, guys!
Reg, in another thread https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...html#post95893 you talk about modal chord improvisation. So here the 2 main theory subjects are implied. Sometime I have thought about that but didn't know whether it was very used. Do you know any tunes where I can see/hear this and their scores or lead sheets?
By the way, in the thread I put above I have some question about chords but wasn't answered. Can you or anybody have a look? Y'know, as I'm studying modes and scales I'm also studying chord functions in jazz but that's not my strongest point yet and I need some guidance. As for chord construction no problem, but about jazz theory in chord function...
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Great Tom.
So i guess ya not overly bothered about the ii v stuff in the intro, just the meat and pots?
Well, ya have a 9 in the Fm and ya have a Gb in the Ab9sus so it flips from one colour to another.
F Aeolian to Ab mixolydian. But because of the strong F sound it kind of implies an F centre for both chords, (play an Fmin Pentatonic over both chords and you'll see what i mean) so that would be an Aeolian sound to a Phrygian sound. Same deal a semitone up. Saying that tho, because you spend a while on the Fmin9 chord, it will take a 6th. So F dorian to F Phrygian is fine too.
This is more Wayne Shorter territory for me, and beds itself nicely in that Modal vibe of the 60s.
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Nice tune, Tom! Originally Posted by mike walker
Mike, you mean that the chords here are Fm9 and Ab7/9sus? So Fm9 with or without a 7th? And dominant Ab7 with a suspended 9th?
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Claudi, Originally Posted by Claudi
Fmin9 implies a 7th. without a 7th it would be Fmin(add 9).
Ab9sus. The Sus refers to the 3rd (c) being replaced by the 4th. So Ab9 as normal but with a 4th instead of a 3rd.
Compare, Ab C Eb Gb Bb Ab9
............. R..3..5..b7..9
with.... Ab Db Eb Gb Bb Ab9sus
........... R..4..5..b7..9
Of course voice them in different ways that sound pleasing to you ie
Ab Eb Gb Bb Db X or Ab X Gb Db Eb Bb Etc
Hope that helps, amigo!!Last edited by mike walker; 09-06-2010 at 06:29 PM.
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Hey Claudi... was I talking about Modal Interchange... I didn't see anything about modal improvisation, although it could follow or develop ideas in a similar manor as chordal modal practice. The same basic modal concept of harmonic function can and is applied to improvisation. And the next step would be introduction of modal interchange to modal harmonic function and how one balances the defining characteristics of each, it's fairly simple to discuss the topic with an understanding. I tend to be a believer in live jazz and how we interact with other players in these situations. There are, depending on how cogitative or how much time you have in this technique, many levels of usage, as with most things in life... Anyway I have a pretty good understanding of traditional and jazz theory, actually very good, not from talent, from years of putting in the time, anyway music is not a struggle for me... it's a joy. I'm from the school of share all I know, and don't take things personal. Music needs all the help we can give it. Please go ahead and be specific, and I'll gladly answer best I can... Just for info. I don't teach much anymore, but do gig all the time. Best Reg Originally Posted by Claudi
Hi, guys!
Reg, in another thread https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...html#post95893 you talk about modal chord improvisation. So here the 2 main theory subjects are implied. Sometime I have thought about that but didn't know whether it was very used. Do you know any tunes where I can see/hear this and their scores or lead sheets?
By the way, in the thread I put above I have some question about chords but wasn't answered. Can you or anybody have a look? Y'know, as I'm studying modes and scales I'm also studying chord functions in jazz but that's not my strongest point yet and I need some guidance. As for chord construction no problem, but about jazz theory in chord function...
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Ah, well! You know, I understand the intervals and already knew that an Ab9 chord implies in jazz a 7th but this sus after the 9 made me doubt, as the Fmin9 did since I always saw it as Fm7/9 or something like that. I make a mess with chord formulas and the way you told it to Tom made me doubt again. Not your fault but mine. Originally Posted by mike walker
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Hey Claudi... "So What" is simple example of modal usage, both chordal and melodic. Harmonically the II chord, or E-, with the characteristic 6th degree of mode has non-tri-tone dominant function and resolves to the I chord, D-, in this example D dorian. The melody uses the same 6th degree or "b" on the weak side of the beat, which helps reinforce D- as tonic, and both harmonic voicings and melody don't imply any tri-tone implications, which would force the ear to hear traditional V-I resolutions. I have to head to gig but I'll look for more complex example later...Best Reg
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Hey, Reg. About using modes with the chords what I think of is that we have a certain tonality, C to start with, and from it we have Imaj7 IImin7 IIImin7 IVmaj7 V7 VImin7 VIIm7/b5, ok?
From there, at a certain point I can take say the tonality of the 4rth chord which is Fmaj7 and think now that it is the 1st chord of the new tonality, we're now in the tonality of Fmajor and all the chords that Fmajor has: Fmaj7 Gmin7 Amin7 Bbmaj7 C7 Dmin7 Emin7/b5. We can do this with all the major chords of the C major tonality but when we take one of the minor chords of the 1st tonality (C) say the 3rd chord which is IIImin7 as the first chord of the new tonality in the modulation I have to change its min3rd to a major3rd.
But if we think in terms of modes the tonality of C and all their chords would be the ionian mode, the tonality of Bb would be the dorian mode with all their chords, Ab would be phrygian with all their chords. What I'm saying is that so far we have discussed the modes in a melodic way but in this post I'm asking if all this is doable harmonically. What's your experience on that. Even, can you recomend any tune where this all happens? I believe there might be a bunch.
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About using modes with the chords what I think of is that we have a certain tonality, C to start with, and from it we have Imaj7 IImin7 IIImin7 IVmaj7 V7 VImin7 VIIm7/b5, ok? From there, at a certain point I can take say the tonality of the 4rth chord which is Fmaj7 and think now that it is the 1st chord of the new tonality, we're now in the tonality of Fmajor and all the chords that Fmajor has: Fmaj7 Gmin7 Amin7 Bbmaj7 C7 Dmin7 Emin7/b5.
C major and F major have the following chords in common
Fma7
Am7
Dm7
It is the Bb note that establishes the new key found in these chords
Bbma7
C7
Em7b5
Gm7
We can do this with all the major chords of the C major tonality but when we take one of the minor chords of the 1st tonality (C) say the 3rd chord which is IIImin7 as the first chord of the new tonality in the modulation I have to change its min3rd to a major 3rd.
You can modulate to E minor or E major as you prefer.
But if we think in terms of modes the tonality of C and all their chords would be the ionian mode, the tonality of Bb would be the dorian mode with all their chords, Ab would be phrygian with all their chords.
This is the parallel approach I spoke of earlier.
If you line up the modes parallel it is possible to borrow chords and still maintain the tonal center.
Cma7-----Dm7-----Em7------Fma7------G7------Am7------Bm7b5
Cm7------Dm7-----Ebma7----F7---------Gm7----Am7b5---Bbma7
Combo progression drawing from C ionian and C dorian
Cma7 Ebma7// Dm7 Gm7// Fma7 Am7b5// Bbma7 Bm7b5// Cma7
The notes of difference between the keys are B/Bb or E/Eb
What I'm saying is that so far we have discussed the modes in a melodic way but in this post I'm asking if all this is doable harmonically. What's your experience on that. Even, can you recomend any tune where this all happens? I believe there might be a bunch.
Generally anything that sounds good melodically has a harmonic counterpart that also sounds good. The reverse is also true (harmonic to melodic). Not everything that sounds good solo will sound good in context with every band situation.
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Thank you so much, bako!!!
That's what I'm looking for! Happy to know all my thoughts were not wrong. As for what you say "Not everything that sounds good solo will sound good in context with every band situation". I understand it, but anyway I don't play in a band, I simply play at home. My only audience is my girlfriend who lives with me. She says I'm nuts with all my theories, papers, excel files, guitars and keyboards.
Again thank you very much!
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Oh, bako, sorry again! But what's that? How are you relating this chords from both ionian and dorian? Originally Posted by bako
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I lined up the 7th chords derived from C major and Bb major around the common tone C in a parallel fashion. Then I created a progression grabbing chords from column A and column B. The overall effect is still C major because Cma7 both starts and ends the sequence although it moves in and out of chords borrowed from Bb major. Originally Posted by Claudi
Oh, bako, sorry again! But what's that? How are you relating this chords from both ionian and dorian?
Cma7 Fma7 Bm7b5 are from C major
Ebma7 Gm7 Bbma7 are from Bb major
Dm7 is a chord common to both C and Bb
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Ah! I didn't think of creating a chord progression consisting in 2 different modes or tonalities, depending on whether thinking of modes or simple tonalities. And what about that Am7/b5 you also inserted? And why do you put // every 2 chords?
I asked in the proper thread about this tune but got no answer. Can you tell me why there are 4 dominant chords in the only 5 chords this tune consists of? And why the other chord isn't a dominant?
Adam Rogers “Bobo” solo transcription aswas
Thank you very much in advance. I'm seeing the light.
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You'll get the pdf more directly with this other link.
http://aswas.files.wordpress.com/201...am-rogers2.pdf
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Am7b5 is the VII chord in Bb major
Lined up as they are, it is in the VI chord position which offered me either Am7 or Am7b5 in my 2 scale game.
// are my simulated bar lines
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Just a very standard blues progression.
Blues has it's own language with a higher incidence of dominant chords including as a I chord, but basically:
F7--------I7
Bb7------IV7
C7--------V7
D7--------V7 of II (secondary dominant)
Gm7------IIm7Last edited by bako; 09-07-2010 at 02:00 AM.
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Oh yes, I knew the I IV V blues progression in a rocky way but not as dominants.
Thank you so much, bako. I'm really grateful. Y'know, it's 8:09 in the morning here and I've been all night long awake looking forward your answers. Highly constructive and I feel I'm a new musician for both guitar and piano.
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Read my first post again about modal function... In modal chord progressions; The only tonic chord is the I chord, the rest of chords built on each scale degrees are chords in them self's, they either have the characteristic modal pitch in them or not. Function or intervals resolving in traditional manor as in typical Tonic, sub-dominant and dominant harmonic manor is not the same in modal harmony... Typical tri-tone resolutions are avoided except in a mode where there part of implied modal harmony. In my example of D dorian, the chords with the tri-tone are avoided because they imply traditional Dominant function; We hear G7 wanting to to go to Cmaj or any other Tonic chord of the Ionian mode, and similar function with B-7b5. If you use a G triad, the tri-tone isn't present, although strongly implied. All scales when used as modes work in this manor. It is not simply starting your chord progression on a degree of a scale and playing the chords in that order... The mode implies different function to each chord .
In C Ionian... the II chord, or D- has Sub-Dominant function and the III chord or E- has Tonic function.. etc...
In D Dorian... the II chord has Non-tri-tone resolving Dom. function because of the characteristic pitch, and the III chord, Fmaj has what could be called non- 4th degree functioning sub-dom. function. I'm stretching my terminology to help you relate modal harmony to traditional harmony to maybe help... I usually don't do this...Again in modal harmony there is only one Tonic chord. Sorry if I wasn't clear before. Typically modal harmony is used in sections of tunes, like "A" section of "Night in Tunisia". The D- chord is the tonic or I chord of D Phrygian, and although the bII chord uses modal interchange to become Eb7#11 or 4th degree of melodic min. The normal modal harmonic function is implied. Which in this example of Phrygian, bII to I is the characteristic harmonic resolution. The "B" section uses different harmonic control. Mr. Shorter used this style of composing... but evolved the concept by composing using blocks of modal music and connected or tied them together... to be continued later... best Reg
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How went your gig?
Before I start thinking of what you've written can you respond me if what you call modal harmony is what bako and I have discussed these last hours?
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No worries Claudi. Originally Posted by Claudi
Ah, well! You know, I understand the intervals and already knew that an Ab9 chord implies in jazz a 7th but this sus after the 9 made me doubt, as the Fmin9 did since I always saw it as Fm7/9 or something like that. I make a mess with chord formulas and the way you told it to Tom made me doubt again. Not your fault but mine.
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He is starting with the modal approach which appeals to those who can already play a bit of rock & blues. Playing the changes comes later. The chapter you are refering to is designed to get you playing over a simple minor seventh chord progression reasonably quickly. I would suggest you create diagrams of the modes in the CAGED (or EDCAG as Capone presents them) positions and memorise them and play along with the backing track or use BIAB. Originally Posted by lasagne
Ah right - that's much clearer ! Thanks guys.
So he's teaching me the A Aeolian and then the A Dorian modes ?
He doesn't explain that at all.
I'm frightened.....I'm only on page 17 of about 250 pages.
I IV V straight up rock was much easier than this
This is only one approach to learning jazz guitar. There are others that some people will consider better, but I like the book.
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Wow,this is what happens when you sleep??Cool.
Reg no man its no test,I am new to jazz theory and modes etc,I had just read an artical about modal jazz,so I decided to try it out in a practical way with a tune.Thats the good thing about BiaB it allows you to try things out and play around with them until you get what you like.Your post tells me what I did,I have no idea but i am slowly learning from threads like this one.Keep on posting.
Mike, cool how you picked up on the 60's vibe,the artical was largely 60,s based.The intro just got me to the first chord mike honest.Oh mike Fmin pent does work then just move it up half a step for the B sec.At the end of the day I just wanted to create a sound and feel I liked, with the limited knowledge that, for now I have.
So having said that my next question would be.If you have a standard ii,V,1 etc tune.And improv using modes is it modal or do you have to have a specific set of chord changes for it to be modal??Hope that made sense.
Cheers Tom
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