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Finger Picking Faster than Flat/Economy Picking?
Anyone know how Finger Picking stacks up against Economy(sweep) and or Flat Picking as far as Speed goes?
Could you (hypothetically)play through a Scale
"faster" with Finger Picking than with economy
picking?
Anyone have a chart or info on what Fingers to use if finger picking through a scale?
Thanks!
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07-15-2010 09:18 PM
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For general, mostly scalar playing -
For me, it took a year, maybe year two, to get about as fast with the pick as I was going to get - and 5 years with twice as much practice to never really catch up with fingers.
Most play scale passages with "i" and "m." Some, intersperse 3 or even 4-finger combos (like using the classical tremelo stroke with fingers on separate strings), but I can't imagine trying to improvise like that.
Some fingerstyle players use the thumb for both up and down strokes. Theoretically, this should be as fast as the pick, as the motion is just about the same. That doesn't work for me, as my nails are too curved for a good upstroke.
Where fingers kill the flatpick-
Some changing-string figures. Wide arpeggios.
There are some hot finger-picking arrangements that combine notes fretted around the fifth to seventh fret, along with open strings. These can fly on memorized pieces, but I think if yoiu tried to improvise that way, your head would explode.Last edited by Aristotle; 07-15-2010 at 09:43 PM.
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If finger picking was faster than flat picking, then that's what the shredders would be doin' and they ain't.
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There are some people who've managed to take fingerpicking to the speed of flatpicking, but they're few and far between.
Foremost in my mind would be Paco De Lucia.
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steps - picking
skips (with held chord in left hand) - finger style.
no contest either way.
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I found finger picking the most Challenging on my practices (Iam still working HARD on this, but realized it needs more time and sounds more encouraging when you start on minors. Can be better if you discipline all your fingers to do the picking. It may take a while but it is much fun.
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Joe Pass could smoke it either way.
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Originally Posted by Drumbler
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Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Anyone know how Finger Picking stacks up against Economy(sweep) and or Flat Picking as far as Speed goes?
Could you (hypothetically)play through a Scale
"faster" with Finger Picking than with economy
picking?
Anyone have a chart or info on what Fingers to use if finger picking through a scale?
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Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Here's a fellow demonstrating some Paco de Lucia with both i-m (first tube) and the classical tremelo p-a-m-i (second tube).
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
THe other thing that will drive nuts with fingerstyle is dynamics. It is natural - and ultimately "wrong" - to use a more forceful stoke to get more volume.
And this stuff just doesn't work as well on steel strings.Last edited by Aristotle; 07-16-2010 at 09:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by fumblefingers
To me, the phrasing in Lenny's lines sounds a bit more together... When he finishes an idea he's right in time and still in the pocket. A lot of Tal's lines finish a bit behind the beat, and sound harmonically unresolved- a fact that makes me think that he was struggling to keep up with the tempo that Lenny counted off.
You're right about the tone thing though- I've been in situations where I've been unhappy with the sound I was getting out of my guitar (usually based on the setting I was playing in, where my ideal "me tone" couldn't possibly project all across the room over the background noise). In those cases my overall playing usually takes a hit- time, note content, comping, etc.- just by virtue of the fact I'm uninspired by what's coming out of my amp. I could see Tal dealing with that sound in that noisy restaurant and feeling like he was sucking left hind teat
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ok.
after second listen i agree that LB was in much firmer control than TF. TF started strong but faded a bit, seems to me.
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Originally Posted by Aristotle
As long as it gets the job done.
Pass also started all his plectrum played lines with a downstroke.
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Originally Posted by Drumbler
Pass also started all his plectrum played lines with a downstroke
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Originally Posted by Drumbler
Also, the phrase you used that I commented about was "Joe could smoke it either way." Well, he is hot with the pick and could leave smoke. He might have been smooth and sophisticated with his fingers, but where's the smoke?
Joe could not play stuff like this riff with a right-hand fingerstyle.
Last edited by Aristotle; 07-18-2010 at 08:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aristotle
Point well taken.
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Joe's really sloppy in that recording... Check this one out:
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Few people get as fast using rest strokes as most do with a pick .
Pick technique is probably more common and it's becoming more common to see a lot of chops in all types of pick players.
When it comes to "sweep " and " economy" picking, if you like these and it comes easily - fine.
BUT it is NOT necessary for playing fast , fluid , articulate in wide intervals OR arpeggios to use "sweep" or "economy" picking- ALTERNATE PICKING can get you there .
I've noticed people tend to assume someone is using "sweep picking" whenever they hear or see fast arpeggios but often it's well executed alternate picking ( people ask me about "sweeping" when they see me play but I don't use it at all ).
There are flamenco players who are nearly or as fast as pick players BUT even they would have troble doing overlappind arpeggios and triads across three strings at high speeds and with the fluidity.
I've been playing around with using rest strokes on electric, 'cause I can do more piano-like playing with just all fingers versus using a pick and 3 fingers BUT the fluidity and speed is very difficult with rest strokes at least for me compared to the pick, especially running changes on single lines. The idea of using rest strokes with I and M is to add notes with thumb and be improvising 2 parts , but for me it's easier with a pick and 3 fingers , using free strokes with M and A for 2 part stuff .
I imagine we are going to see someone do this on 7 String and become a cross between Segovia/John Williams,Ted Greene, and Hendrix/Mcglaughlin with a little metal thrown in in the next 10 years but not yet and probably not me- I don't want to put in another 10 years of woodshedding to get to where I am with a pick...................
Obviously , the Flamenco Players and some Classical Guitarists get fluent with using alternate rest strokes , but it's less common to see guys with monster chops for single lines using that technique, but it can work very well on electric guitar, just that there's only a relatively VERY small amount of people who have taken it as far as "State of the Art " is with a pick.*
* Oddly enough - and of course this is just MY personal limitation and observation- doing rest strokes we've seen some of the Flamenco guys get really good at scale type stuff BUT it seems that playing ACROSS the strings , running changes etc. is really where the differences show even more, and we don't see too many finger style guys running changes with rest strokes.Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-04-2011 at 04:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
on the other hand the number of plectrists who can play like greased lightning is numerous. on the artistic question the same goes for them of course. some of them of fairly obscure.
Also, it bears repeating. When it comes to certain broken chords and arpeggios, finger style has the upper hand (so to speak ). In fact, there are many, many classical guitar studies and pieces which aren't feasible for plectrum performance.
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